Author Topic: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Spencerian  (Read 9429 times)

ash0kgiri

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Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Spencerian
« on: April 03, 2017, 04:16:10 PM »
Dear Forum Members,
I been thinking of starting this thread for quite sometime. For those who are new to the forum. I started my journey in Pointed pen calligraphy in June 2016 with absolutely no idea of what it is.

Many thanks to Flourish Forum for accommodating me and all my mentors and Forum members who are tolerating me for the past 10months with my practice drills and continuous feedback.

For the past few weeks I been working on Spencerian, and I have been experimenting with both styles (Copperplate & Spencerian). This is my first post with only spencerian which I attempted yesterday. I can see nothing but flaws and Im going to improve on them. But a humble request to Members on the forum I would like you to spare sometime and critique my work. As I have always said please RIGHT if I'm WRONG. :D

(I been referring to J. G. Christ exemplar in Ornamental alphabet)

Thanks,
Keep writing,
Ashok
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 04:36:34 PM by ash0kgiri »

Offline AndyT

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Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Spencerian
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2017, 07:26:34 AM »
It looks very good to me Ashok: bravo!  You seem to have managed the transition to semi-angular effortlessly, and the open tails to j, g and y are executed with brio.  In my experience that is not easy, at all.

You're more than capable of critiquing yourself, but a few points occur to me to bear in mind.  The lower loop of f could do with swinging somewhat to the left, which has the effect of making the letter look straight.  The second half of w is conventionally half the width of the first.  The descender of your p is very long: it would normally be just 1½ spaces below the baseline, whilst the lead in stroke rises to the height of a t.  Pay close attention to c and e, and try to keep them quite straight-backed with tight turns.

You could maybe go a bit easier on the wedge shaped shades of t and d, and in general concerning shades they tend to be a little high.  For instance, when you choose to shade an l keeping it to a tiny accent between the base and waist lines would improve the appearance in my opinion.  With the capitals, try starting the shade about halfway down and giving the pen a slight clockwise twist as you go into the turn.  If you'd like my little package of materials about Spencerian and OP shading, a 38Mb zip file, please let me know.

These are all quite minor observations, so please take them in the spirit intended.  Which is as a spur to greater heights rather than anything else.  If you take the view that "Accurate writing is writing so closely near to an accepted standard that the well-trained eye cannot detect the difference" (Madarasz), then there's work to be done, but you're off to a flying start.  Honestly, I gasped when I first saw this because it makes such a strong first impression.

ash0kgiri

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Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Spencerian
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2017, 01:46:22 PM »
Hi @AndyT,

Many thanks for the kind words. Really appreciate you sparing your valuable time to comment. It really means a lot :D :D
To be very frank I'm very ashamed to say that Im still not familiar with the technical words that you have used, but after reading it a couple of times I some how understood what you said... Sorry about that... :( What I have written is by watching online videos and IG posts. But I seriously want to take this forward and learn this from beginning. I would like my foundation to be strong and also technically sound so that I also know the reason behind my mistakes.

Andy if you don't mind can please explain me this particular point again
Quote from: AndyT
For instance, when you choose to shade an l keeping it to a tiny accent between the base and waist lines would improve the appearance in my opinion.  With the capitals, try starting the shade about halfway down and giving the pen a slight clockwise twist as you go into the turn.

I would be more than happy to have your little Spencerian package :D. Also if you could help me with video links that I could refer to for the minor points you mentioned it would be really helpful.

Thanks again for your advice and motivation.

-Ashok


Offline Rednaxela

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Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Spencerian
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2017, 03:28:59 PM »
This is really impressive Ashok. A true joy to look at!

My suggestion for further improvement would be to skip the shading altogether for a while. Make your downstrokes as light as your upstrokes in all your writing. Once you're comfortable with this you can add back the shading in Spencerian quantities, and at Spencerian places. Another benefit of leaving out the shading is that it helps you work on one thing at a time.

Hope this helps.
-- Alexander --

Offline AndyT

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Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Spencerian
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2017, 04:45:11 PM »
Hi @ash0kgiri ,

Sorry for any confusion.  :)  There's plenty of scope for personal variation with Spencerian, especially with regard to shading, so in the end you should follow your own instincts.  However, having a good exemplar and attempting to reproduce it is the quick way forward if you ask me.  May I ask which you are using?

I think the points I raised are all quite uncontroversial and related to the things which make Spencerian distinctive - for instance "semi-angular" refers to the way transitional turns are less rounded than in copperplate.  (Or to be more technical they do not have a constant radius).  Really homing in on the exemplar and copying it will help a lot more than my attempted explanations.

Regarding that specific point, perhaps it's easier to start with the end result.  What you're aiming for is a lopsided shade, and the way to do it is by bearing down on the right hand tine of the nib more than the left.  If all goes according to plan the inside (left) of the shade will follow a smooth curve curve, whilst the outside will swell.  Equally smoothly!  You'll see this a lot in old specimens, particularly Madarasz's.  It allows you put more weight into the shade, lower down.  So, the way it is done is with a slight clockwise twist of the pen, to splay that right tine.  There's a real knack to it.  If you use arm movement, which is to say writing from the shoulder, the action is in the wrist; if muscular movement (resting the forearm on the desk) it's in the fingers - but you still make the shape of the letter without back and forth finger movement.  I might as well be speaking Klingon at this point, most likely.  ;)  Anyway, for ordinary Spencerian capitals you don't need to do this, but for Ornamental penmanship - and that's what your photo is - it's a fairly standard technique.

Good Spencerian videos are a bit thin on the ground, but as ever Schin is a reliable guide.  There are a couple of videos of John DeCollibus who is very nice to watch, but he's a left hander using an oblique holder so it's a bit odd.  Also have a look for Heather Held, Hoang and Jacob Ira Vijandre.  If you watch a few videos you'll notice that everybody works differently, so the customary advice applies and if what your doing works well and feels right, it's right.

PM coming with the link to the package.

Andy
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 04:56:46 AM by AndyT »

Offline Rednaxela

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Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Spencerian
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2017, 03:16:43 AM »
I think the clockwise twisting is nicely displayed here, ignoring for a moment the eccentric paper position.

-- Alexander --

Offline Rednaxela

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Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Spencerian
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2017, 04:35:09 AM »
This one might also give some insights.



@AndyT feel free to comment of course!
-- Alexander --

Offline Garima

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Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Spencerian
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2017, 04:41:44 AM »
Here I am just gasping and you've moved on to another script!! This is awesome @ash0kgiri, let's learn together as planned!  :)

@AndyT I'll be following along! And before i begin, how important are movement exercises in learning spencerian? Is the usage overemphasized?
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Offline AndyT

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Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Spencerian
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2017, 05:29:48 AM »
... before i begin, how important are movement exercises in learning spencerian? Is the usage overemphasized?

Hello Garima,

I think it depends how temperamentally inclined you are to do them!  They won't do any harm, and it's a way to warm up if nothing else.  The ovals are well known and regarded as good for developing arm movement - something I think is overemphasised - but the push-pulls work on muscular movement which is the mainstay of Spencerian (and all American styles, really).  All the exercises are good for developing a light touch, if you try to get as much as possible out of one dip.  If you wind up doing lines and lines of ovals while your attention goes walkabout, it's maybe time to do something else like the alternating pressure "springs" or a page of capital stems, say.  That ought to snap the mind back into focus.  ;)

Schin has an amusing but helpful video on the subject here

ash0kgiri

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Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Spencerian
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2017, 06:10:16 AM »
This is really impressive Ashok. A true joy to look at!

Hi Alexander,
Thanks for your valuable advice and encouragement. I saw your videos on IG and they are superb. You have a very elegant hand wish I have such grace... I understand what you mean by not focusing on the shade for a moment. I will surely try doing it in my practice sessions.

Thanks again,
-Ashok

ash0kgiri

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Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Spencerian
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2017, 06:44:34 AM »
Hi Alexander,

Thanks for sharing such informative videos. I like the paper kept vertically in the first video, but i was wondering if all the alphabets could be written in the same manner. I also see lot of Hoang videos, remember seeing this one and its quite elaborate. Im now kind of etching to do some practice. :D

Hope I have something worth posting tomorrow.

-Ashok

ash0kgiri

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Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Spencerian
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2017, 07:08:53 AM »
Sorry for any confusion.  :)  There's plenty of scope for personal variation with Spencerian...

Hi Andy,

There was absolutely no confusion from your end. I was the one who had some difficulty absorbing the information and technical terms. But I will take this part of the learning process.
This is from the book, 'An Elegant Hand' by William E. Henning. I had referred to J. G. Chirst Ornamental script (only capitals) which someone had shared on this forum. Just random selection as I got intrigued with he letter forms. :D

I follow Schin & Hoang on youtube and IG. But the rest I have not heard of. So thanks for the names I will surely have a look.
Im so overwhelmed with the support that Im getting here. Thank you so much. :D :D :D

- Ashok

Offline Garima

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Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Spencerian
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2017, 07:48:11 AM »
@AndyT I do warm up everyday before i sit down to write. Having learnt a bit of engrosser's, I'm now keen to learn business penmanship which to me looks quite close to Spencerian. I actually was curious to know to whether the precision with which Madarasz and his fellow penmen, do the drills, is an absolute must to be good at spence. Rows and rows of absolutely similar looking ovals scared me in the beginning but I think i get the point you're trying to make here.

I've already been following everyone you've mentioned on the thread except Jacob Ira Vijandre and they've all been a great help!

@ash0kgiri I might be hijacking your thread once in a while  ;)
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 08:17:40 AM by Garima »
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ash0kgiri

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Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Spencerian
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2017, 09:46:31 AM »
Hi @Garima,
You are always welcome. Im so happy to see you back in action. ;)

ash0kgiri

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Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Spencerian
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2017, 12:28:46 PM »
Hi

Here's my yesterdays spencerian practice. @AndyT & @Rednaxela thank you for all the guidance. I really need it and please bare with me at this stage :D :D
I tried the slight clockwise twist and it definitely helped me. What I need is more practice. Hope I make some progress today.

Awaiting kind critique.

Thanks,
- Ashok