Author Topic: Calligraphy Layouts and Formatting.  (Read 7809 times)

ash0kgiri

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Re: Calligraphy Layouts and Formatting.
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2017, 03:11:47 AM »
Hi Aman,

This has come out really nice. I like the composition and the color variation. Wanted to know if you use guidelines before you start writing?
Also whenever I compose long para, I use pencil to compost & sort out my spacing and overlapping issues.

Keep writing,
-Ashok

Offline The.SardaarJi

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Re: Calligraphy Layouts and Formatting.
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2017, 03:32:49 AM »
Hello @ash0kgiri  ,

Thanks for your appreciation ..

Arrr!! My answers are  " NO" :( . Not sure if it's good or bad, I stop used using grid lines year before :) , So I don't used the guidelines in the below, and also I have never used the pencil markups till now :D ......

I am planning to use guidelines and pencil markup on today's calligraphy work. :)


Thanks
Aman


Hi Aman,

This has come out really nice. I like the composition and the color variation. Wanted to know if you use guidelines before you start writing?
Also whenever I compose long para, I use pencil to compost & sort out my spacing and overlapping issues.

Keep writing,
-Ashok
A bird is safe in its nest - but that is not what its wings are made for.
https://www.instagram.com/the.sardaarji

ash0kgiri

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Re: Calligraphy Layouts and Formatting.
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2017, 03:52:28 AM »
Hi Aman,

The reason to use it to have better current layouts and composition.
Waiting to see todays work.

-Ashok

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Re: Calligraphy Layouts and Formatting.
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2017, 04:25:28 AM »
Hi @ash0kgiri  ,

That's nice :) ,,

Will upload my work late in the night.

Regards
Aman

Hi Aman,

The reason to use it to have better current layouts and composition.
Waiting to see todays work.

-Ashok
A bird is safe in its nest - but that is not what its wings are made for.
https://www.instagram.com/the.sardaarji

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: Calligraphy Layouts and Formatting.
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2017, 08:11:38 AM »
Oh, did I speak out of turn?

Oh, Andy, I apologize if I sounded snarky. It was a quickly written post. I really do appreciate your comments and should have done a better job in explaining that the people who teach design are teaching vocabulary - not rules. I believe you are a very skilled woodworker and you probably use all kinds of design principles in your work. There is no set rule for balance, but you probably consider balance in designing a piece. Scale and proportion are two other factors when designing a piece where there are no set rules, they are simply things to consider. If someone came to you asking for a beautiful hand-crafted front door for their house, I am pretty sure you would want to know the scale and proportions of the entire house before you proposed a design. Maybe not - I'm just trying to think of an example that would apply to woodworking - knowing very little about the process. My point was/is that the elements and principles of design are simply vocabulary words that aid people when they are making decisions about their creations and I don't think calling them rules gives people the correct impression about why it is worthwhile to learn a bit (or a lot) about design.

I happily embrace those students who feel like design lessons are *rules* - no matter what I say. For some people, design lessons are pure torture. I compare it to music. Some people are gifted - and happy to just play things that make them happy. Would they benefit from some lessons? Maybe, but it is more important to enjoy the process. I do not get crosswise with the students who are wildly experimental and shun the design lessons. I support the free spirits. I am happy that you reminded us that experimentation is as valid as everything else.

This is where I draw the line on the value of lessons in any art. If you think you want to make a living with your art, but you can't find a market, then you might want to consider some lessons. We all know about those gifted people who rise to the top without any lessons. It's a wonderful thing when that happens. But it does not mean that we can replicate that path for ourselves. Many of us do better after taking some courses. Even if you have no interest in marketing your art, if you are not pleased with what you are producing, and you ask someone for help in improving the piece - I imagine most of the suggestions would include words from the lists found in elements and principles of design.

Something else that is vitally important to understand if someone decides to go for lessons. You may not click with every teacher. I'm sure I had students who considered my classes a waste of time. I explain at the beginning of any series of classes that I will do my best to connect with each student, but if they do not enjoy the class, keep searching for teachers who will offer those lessons that enhance the students life.

The next point is -how much is there to learn?
As much as you like.
Erica has posted a set of tips for design. Many people can learn some tips and that's all they need to be off and running. Other people like to study things in more depth. Figure out what works for you.

Again, I apologize for the earlier comments and hope that the conversation continues.

Offline Erica McPhee

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Re: Calligraphy Layouts and Formatting.
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2017, 10:28:08 AM »
Thanks @AndyT  for posting that link! What a great resource to have available.
Warm Regards,
Erica
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Re: Calligraphy Layouts and Formatting.
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2017, 10:32:13 AM »
Yes Aman! I like how you did these pieces.

I would advise, as Schin said, to choose the words you want to really emphasize to highlight. So for example:

In the 1st, I would suggest brightest if only one word or darkest and brightest and contrast them with dark and light colors. Or if you wanted Stars highlighted, just highlight stars, not "the" which is an insignificant word to the quote itself.

The faith and recognize ones are a great improvement! And the last as well. The recognize one is my favorite.  :)
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Re: Calligraphy Layouts and Formatting.
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2017, 10:51:40 PM »

Hello @Erica McPhee

A very good morning.

Thanks a ton to your valuable feedback and your suggestions.

I  am glad that you like the piece of my work :) . I am going to add these suggestion on today's work. and will post it soon. I am sure with the mentor like you and others, I may will improve my calligraphy soon.

I am really glad that I have joined this group :) .. I am HAPPY.

Thanks
Aman

Yes Aman! I like how you did these pieces.

I would advise, as Schin said, to choose the words you want to really emphasize to highlight. So for example:

In the 1st, I would suggest brightest if only one word or darkest and brightest and contrast them with dark and light colors. Or if you wanted Stars highlighted, just highlight stars, not "the" which is an insignificant word to the quote itself.

The faith and recognize ones are a great improvement! And the last as well. The recognize one is my favorite.  :)
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Offline The.SardaarJi

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Re: Calligraphy Layouts and Formatting.
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2017, 11:07:18 PM »
Hello Everyone..

I have tried the *Pencil Layout* process yesterday to redo the Ocean quote and one another quote.
And after seeing the result , I think I am failed terribly in this attempt  ;D . The output is not much better.

I know, I messed the first "Y" in "You". I need to learn about creating "Y" again :D .

I have tried another quote for with layout too, and not sure if the result is better or not.

The process which I have followed is.

  • Draw a margin on the paper.
  • Find it's center.
  • Use LED Board and palace the Guide sheet over it and then use the paper on which I am going to write a quote over it.
  • Start making the layout or rough sketch of  quote/
  • When Happy with the quote, write over it with a Calligrahy pen
  • Remove the pencil marks.

The Problem which I have faced.
  • While writing with pencil, now can I judge the spacing? Bcos i am going to write with 2.4 mm or 2mm pen while writing of pencil is just 0.7mm and it will cause spacing issue or when i write over it with Pen the alphabets won't comer exactly over pencil markups. 
  • Once we done writing with a PEN, i tried to remove the pencil marks, but they messed up with the INK...
  • With Pencil marks the Calligraphy quote looks bad..
  • While when  I was writing with pencil, I was not sure which layout to use,, I think read the PDF today which is send by  Andy.

So this is the progress so far :) and i know it's bad :D.

Thanks a lot again and really my gratitude towards all of you..


Have a nice day.

Regards
Amna



« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 11:08:54 PM by The.SardaarJi »
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Offline jeanwilson

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Re: Calligraphy Layouts and Formatting.
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2017, 08:04:10 AM »
Congratulations for sticking with it and following suggestions that were a bit *sketchy* - which left out details that would have been helpful.
I like to do my first set of pencil sketches on graph paper and experiment with every possible way to arrange the words. Stack them in a tall narrow layout, break them in to as few lines as possible for a wide layout, break the words by grammatical phrasing, pull out important words and feature them larger. Note in each layout where your ascenders and descenders may run in to each other. Flush left, flush right, centered, random, etc...

This set of pencil sketches is often called *thumbnail* because you do them smaller than what the final piece will be. Exploring every possible way of arranging the words is a good exercise and once you learn how to do it, you enjoy the process because you frequently are surprised by which option is your favorite. When people start with just one idea about how to arrange the words, they are missing out on all kinds of options that they might like better.

Once you have the thumbnail that you like, enlarge it to the size that will be closer to the finished piece. The question about how to get the spacing right when you are using a pencil and will be switching to a broad edge is a good question. I can think of two ways to address this. The first is by doing a double stroke or even triple stroke on the wide strokes to approximate the width. Or, it is possible to write a monoline italic and see each stroke as if it is the skeleton within a wider stroke - so you are leaving the extra space and can visualize how the strokes will be wider.

Some people are really good at doing the thumbnails on a computer. If I get a rush job, I frequently do layouts on the computer using fonts that approximate my styles of lettering and get an approval from the client using the font.

Once you are happy with your pencil sketches at the final size, you switch to ink (on layout paper) and see how it looks. Again, most people would be surprised at how many versions some scribes are willing to make to arrive at the final layout. In her book, Sheila states that she is not adverse to doing the *final* more than once or even more than twice. She states that the extras are in her portfolio. I know it is common for students to groan when they make a mistake and they dread the thought of starting over. Personally, it seldom (if ever) bothers me to have to start over. It always takes me a while to get warmed up and I am happy to have as many pieces as possible in the portfolio to show clients their options. If I have time and there will be a decorative element on the piece, I might start 3 pieces to have backups so that I can be a little freer with the decorative element. I can do the first one in *safe* mode. And assuming it is fine, I can then switch to something a little riskier - that might be better. Or, in the case of the *happy accident* if you are working on three of the same piece and you have an oops, you might discover a really cool fix - so the accident truly is a happy accident.

Smearing when you erase your pencil lines---- I like to let things dry overnight before I erase. Sometimes, there will be smearing no matter what - so learning how to avoid smears is a matter of learning about your inks and papers and only using the ones that you have thoroughly tested. And even then...be prepared for surprises.

---- on the other hand------

The details above about how to approach layouts is one end of the spectrum. It is detailed oriented and takes time. If it sounds tedious and boring, don't worry. There are other ways to approach design that are more streamlined. I don't want to be the only person offering suggestions. Maybe other people will add to the conversation.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 08:17:50 AM by jeanwilson »

Offline Erica McPhee

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Re: Calligraphy Layouts and Formatting.
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2017, 08:48:48 AM »
Great feedback, Jean.

Aman, I really like how you laid out the ocean piece. To answer your questions, I never do the actual quote in pencil. I only do the thumbnail for a rough layout and then draw the guidelines in pencil. I know some folks pencil out their words first but I could never get all of the pencil lines erased - especially using gouache or watercolor. Always wait at least an hour before erasing pencil lines.

Practice makes progress!  ;D
Warm Regards,
Erica
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ash0kgiri

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Re: Calligraphy Layouts and Formatting.
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2017, 11:45:46 AM »
No one give better feedback than Jean. :D

Aman, as Erica said the ocean piece is looking good. Also try and use a light hand to make the pencil sketch and a softer pencil. so that you can erase it easily afterwards.
One more thing. When I pencil sketch my letters, I use them only as guides for spacing and composition and not to trace on them. The pencil thickness differs from the broad pen width and hence you need to judge your para accordingly. You will get a hang of it with more practice.

So keep writing,
-Ashok

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Re: Calligraphy Layouts and Formatting.
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2017, 01:23:04 AM »
Hello @jeanwilson

A  very good morning , and thanks for your detailed reply.

Thanks for suggesting about graph paper, I never saw anyone using Graph paper for Italic , I will give it a try and will post the result soon.

Thumbnails, option looking good to me, and I can understand the process now, thanks a lot for explaining it in details, now the another question arise ( sorry), if some one is not aware from *different kind* of layouts, then he can't make any? right? So there have to be some *foundation * principles for it. 

Thumbnails on computer ? By any chance you have any *sampler* of computer generated thumbnails? I am good in computers,  I would like to give it a try, and just curious which software you do use to create thumbnails in computer. 

For this week's calligraphy work, I will try to generate some *Thumbnails* and will see if I can come out with anything.

I never managed to create a *final piece* yet, but I am hoping I will do it soon, once I got everything right. Will frame it and hang in on the wall of my drawing room.

While practicing , i messed up with the 2-3 paper anyway, that make me warm, like a warm exercise. I am still struggling with Inks and paper, and i think that's a topic for some another day.

The more you are mentioning *Sheila* the more eager I am getting a hands on her book, does anyone have her book in PDF format? that will be great help to me.I will ask my online friends too, and will see if anyone have hold of it.


I have found this pic over internet, and this is the example of *Thumbnail* right ?



Thanks a lot for the reply.

Have a nice day.

Regards
Aman

Congratulations for sticking with it and following suggestions that were a bit *sketchy* - which left out details that would have been helpful.
I like to do my first set of pencil sketches on graph paper and experiment with every possible way to arrange the words. Stack them in a tall narrow layout, break them in to as few lines as possible for a wide layout, break the words by grammatical phrasing, pull out important words and feature them larger. Note in each layout where your ascenders and descenders may run in to each other. Flush left, flush right, centered, random, etc...

This set of pencil sketches is often called *thumbnail* because you do them smaller than what the final piece will be. Exploring every possible way of arranging the words is a good exercise and once you learn how to do it, you enjoy the process because you frequently are surprised by which option is your favorite. When people start with just one idea about how to arrange the words, they are missing out on all kinds of options that they might like better.

Once you have the thumbnail that you like, enlarge it to the size that will be closer to the finished piece. The question about how to get the spacing right when you are using a pencil and will be switching to a broad edge is a good question. I can think of two ways to address this. The first is by doing a double stroke or even triple stroke on the wide strokes to approximate the width. Or, it is possible to write a monoline italic and see each stroke as if it is the skeleton within a wider stroke - so you are leaving the extra space and can visualize how the strokes will be wider.

Some people are really good at doing the thumbnails on a computer. If I get a rush job, I frequently do layouts on the computer using fonts that approximate my styles of lettering and get an approval from the client using the font.

Once you are happy with your pencil sketches at the final size, you switch to ink (on layout paper) and see how it looks. Again, most people would be surprised at how many versions some scribes are willing to make to arrive at the final layout. In her book, Sheila states that she is not adverse to doing the *final* more than once or even more than twice. She states that the extras are in her portfolio. I know it is common for students to groan when they make a mistake and they dread the thought of starting over. Personally, it seldom (if ever) bothers me to have to start over. It always takes me a while to get warmed up and I am happy to have as many pieces as possible in the portfolio to show clients their options. If I have time and there will be a decorative element on the piece, I might start 3 pieces to have backups so that I can be a little freer with the decorative element. I can do the first one in *safe* mode. And assuming it is fine, I can then switch to something a little riskier - that might be better. Or, in the case of the *happy accident* if you are working on three of the same piece and you have an oops, you might discover a really cool fix - so the accident truly is a happy accident.

Smearing when you erase your pencil lines---- I like to let things dry overnight before I erase. Sometimes, there will be smearing no matter what - so learning how to avoid smears is a matter of learning about your inks and papers and only using the ones that you have thoroughly tested. And even then...be prepared for surprises.

---- on the other hand------

The details above about how to approach layouts is one end of the spectrum. It is detailed oriented and takes time. If it sounds tedious and boring, don't worry. There are other ways to approach design that are more streamlined. I don't want to be the only person offering suggestions. Maybe other people will add to the conversation.
A bird is safe in its nest - but that is not what its wings are made for.
https://www.instagram.com/the.sardaarji

Offline The.SardaarJi

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Re: Calligraphy Layouts and Formatting.
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2017, 01:29:54 AM »
Hello @Erica McPhee ,

Good morning,

Thanks for the reply . I am glad that you like it.

Ohk! I always tried removing pencil marks just after it was written, I need to correct it.

I would love to see some *thumbnails* examples , so kindly whenever you have time ( in near future) please share with us. :)

Thanks, and have a nice day.

Regards
Aman


Great feedback, Jean.

Aman, I really like how you laid out the ocean piece. To answer your questions, I never do the actual quote in pencil. I only do the thumbnail for a rough layout and then draw the guidelines in pencil. I know some folks pencil out their words first but I could never get all of the pencil lines erased - especially using gouache or watercolor. Always wait at least an hour before erasing pencil lines.

Practice makes progress!  ;D
A bird is safe in its nest - but that is not what its wings are made for.
https://www.instagram.com/the.sardaarji

Offline The.SardaarJi

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Re: Calligraphy Layouts and Formatting.
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2017, 01:40:34 AM »
Hello @ash0kgiri  ,

I am totally agree with you , she is kind and she is really helpful.

Thanks a lot a help, I am going to get some *light* shade pencils and will try to use soft lines for making alphabets.

I will try your appoarch too , thanks for sharing it with me,and will share the result soon.

Thanks again and have a nice day.

Regards
aman


No one give better feedback than Jean. :D

Aman, as Erica said the ocean piece is looking good. Also try and use a light hand to make the pencil sketch and a softer pencil. so that you can erase it easily afterwards.
One more thing. When I pencil sketch my letters, I use them only as guides for spacing and composition and not to trace on them. The pencil thickness differs from the broad pen width and hence you need to judge your para accordingly. You will get a hang of it with more practice.

So keep writing,
-Ashok
A bird is safe in its nest - but that is not what its wings are made for.
https://www.instagram.com/the.sardaarji