Copperplate Minuscules - Group 4

[neriah]

@Salman Khattak

Thank you, I understand now. It looked weird to me because I only wrote ascenders to match 3:2:3 proportions while leaving "t" and "d" in 2:1:2

[Vipul]

@Salman Khattak

Hi,
Took a break from this to get some consistency in my letters. Glad to say, it's working a bit, but will need a lot of refinement.

Here is my today's attempt at Group 4 letters and words. Request your critique.

Regards,
Vipul.

PS. After seeing Katja's work, feeling stupid putting this up. 😋

[Salman Khattak]

@Vipul

This is just beautiful Vipul. You have developed a lovely script hand. I am sure you can feel the letters flow better from your pen now :-)

The only issues I see are with the 's' and the 'z'. The 'f is nice and delicate now.

- The 's' is almost there. If you take away the blob at the top, you will notice that the reversed 'c' doesn't quite reach the waist line. This is causing the 's' to look a bit weak. Make sure the blob stops at the waist line and allow a slightly heavier start for the reversed 'c' and you will see the difference.

- The 'z' is nicely done - just start the shade of the descender a bit later. In your examples, the shade starts almost before the loop at the base line is finished - this is too early. Start the shade only when you pen has moved below the base line. It will make the 'z' a bit more delicate and attractive.

You are almost there and I am quite happy to see the progress you have made.

- Salman

[neriah]

@Vipul

I have been following these lessons for bit over a year with a couple of breaks, I think you are doing much better than me

[Vipul]

@neriah

Hi Katja,

Your writing is beautiful. Been following your writing all through......
Really like your work. These words are so beautifully written. Been studying your work and learnt a lot from it.

Vipul

[Vipul]

@Salman

Hi,
Sorry for the delay, but just couldn't sit down the last few days. Just managed this half hour today.

I think I've addressed the issues in 's' and 'z' that you pointed out.

Submitted the words and the sentence for group 4.

Regards,
Vipul

[Salman Khattak]

@Vipul

You are indeed getting there Vipul. However, did you notice all 5 of your 'z's are different?

The 'c-r' join in 'craze' has too much space between the 'c' and the 'r' - this is common. Adjust the exit stroke from the 'c' so this space is filled up i.e. move the 'r' a tad closer to the 'c' so the overall texture is consistent. The same applies to the 'f-r' join. (We are talking minuscule adjustments here.)

The 's' needs more work. Interestingly you make the inverted 'c' stroke quite well in the 'x' - the 's' uses the same stroke. Do you see how these two are different?

Salman

[Vipul]

@Salman Khattak

Hi,

Thanks for your prompt feedback. Delay in resubmission on my part is regretted, but it was due to my last 303 giving up on me. 

Submitted are the letters and words within your pointers incorporated.

Awaiting your feedback

Regards
Vipul

[Vipul]

@Salman Khattak

Hi,

Thought I'll have another go at the group 4 letters and words. The one written earlier had spacing and joinery issues in my perception. Tried to improve there....

Have included the word 'energy'. Found consistent spacing very tricky with it. Think have managed to hack it.
However, I have noticed that with the shape 'r', due to the thin hairline upstroke, it created a visual gap, especially when it follows the rounded letters like 'c' or 'e'. Tried to squeeze it in by having a slightly steeper entry stroke, but not sure if it balances. Request suggestions on that aspect.

Also, when writing a sentence which goes into 2-3 lines, how do we deal with intra-line spacing, especially with ascenders and decenders in conflict; like 'z' and 'k' here. What considerations should go in taking this spacing, since too much and the whole thing becomes disjoint, and too little leads to clashing of letters? I tried to write the same using your guidelines, but on plain paper so that the lines don't effect the visual impact of the whole thing. Any suggestions there, on the spacing?

Regards
Vipul

[Salman Khattak]

@Vipul

Nice work Vipul. You are almost there. The c-r spacing is nicely dealt with as is the e-r spacing in energy.

The 's' needs more work. The inverted 'c' part is still not quite  there. Also, the lower loops of the 'g' and 'y' should be identical width and length.

The shoulder of the 'r' comes down a tad too much in places so watch out for that.

It is o.k. to ignore the baseline lifts at this stage but only when you take care to hit the base line consistently and are able to release the pressure on the nib to zero on the upstroke. You are not quite hitting the baseline consistently - especially the 'c' in the last 'frocks'.

The subject of line spacing is tricky. The traditional 2:1:2 in Copperplate can be stacked end-to-end without looking too spaced out (see examples from The Universal Penman). In Engrosser's script with 3:2:3 spacing, lines do look too far if stacked end-to-end. It looks better if they are overlapped by 1/3rd, i.e. use the same guidelines for the 2:1:2 stacked end-to-end but extend your ascenders and descenders above and below the ascender and descender lines (see examples of the Zanerian Certificate for Engrosser's script). The slight overlap does not cause much 'traffic' and any overlap can usually be ironed out with careful spacing in the 2nd or 3rd draft. You did not expect it to go right on the first go did you? :-)

- Salman

[Vipul]

@Salman Khattak

Hi,
Have written these keeping in mind the points you have brought out.

The spacing, as I understand, has no rules, and depends on your skill to pull off. Another issue that I seem to face is the double letters, especially the double l (LL). Those always seem a bit odd. How does 1 write those? And modification needed in the way we write them. Same for Ss and RR.

Regards,
Vipul

[Salman Khattak]

@Vipul

Very nice work Vipul. At this point the only letter that is letting your script down is the 's'. The 'c' part is just not right. I am afraid this something you just have to push through.

The descender loop of the 'z' should not be shaded quite as heavily and should be a tad thinner to be more in line with the other descender loops in the script.

Your extra long ascenders and descenders work but the 'f' looks a bit too long - maybe leaving it a little shorter on the descender will do the trick. Also, your ascenders are heavier than the weight of the other strokes in the words. Remember, these have to work together so avoid any 'hot spots'.

Double letters are written as regular letters. There are some creative ligatures you can explore but those would be an exception, not the rule. Do you have a copy of The Universal Penman? If not, you will do well to get your hands on one - it is an invaluable resource for study and inspiration.

- Salman

[Vipul]

@Salman Khattak

Sorry for the delay in posting. Ordered the universal penman.
 
Submitted here my latest attempt.

Regards

Vipul

[Salman Khattak]

@Vipul

Vipul - there isn't much structure wise that we have not covered already. The new development is that the shade of the 'r' is now encroaching inside the counter space - this was not happening before.

The 's' and the 'x' still need more work.

The shades need to be even. The first stroke in the 'n' is heavier than the second in the last 'snow'. Also, the long strokes are generally heavier than the rest of the writing.

Lets move on to the last exercise of writing the quotation with these issues in mind.

- Salman

[Vipul]

@Salman Khattak

Hi,
Sorry for the long delay in replying. Went back to basics and addressed the thicker long strokes and uneven thickness of the shades.

Wrote the quote, though the nib is going, so there is a bit of issue in the writing.

Still, putting this up for your review. Still working on the basics....

Regards
Vipul