Author Topic: Legible "calligraphy" and Asemic Writing  (Read 13092 times)

Offline AndyT

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Legible "calligraphy" and Asemic Writing
« on: October 22, 2015, 05:34:22 AM »
NOTE: This topic was split from another thread: Is Good Calligraphy Subjective.

'Pretty' writing won't mean anything if no one can read it, right?

Now, that is a very interesting topic for discussion.  It could easily be argued that a truly illegible piece of good calligraphy has a better claim to being "art" than one which can be read without difficulty.

Hook baited ... let's see if I get a bite.  :)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 09:24:29 PM by Erica McPhee »

Offline Andrew H

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Re: Legible "calligraphy" and Asemic Writing
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2015, 07:12:04 AM »

Now, that is a very interesting topic for discussion.  It could easily be argued that a truly illegible piece of good calligraphy has a better claim to being "art" than one which can be read without difficulty.

Hook baited ... let's see if I get a bite.  :)

I agree…  ;) :P
Andrew

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Re: Legible "calligraphy" and Asemic Writing
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2015, 11:58:14 AM »
It only has a "better" claim if obscurity is some prerequisite for being "art." Do we want to go there? That makes all those lovely Renaissance portraits and illustrations of Greek myths and biblical scenes less worthy of the title "art" than a lot of abstract modern stuff.

I am totally down with the claim that something which is beautifully executed, but illegible, is as worthy of being called art as any letter penned by E. A. Lupfer. But not more worthy. I intensely dislike the view that highbrow, respected things (like art, literature, music) must be obscure and incomprehensible. Why on earth would we want to distance art from the bulk of humanity, who have not been trained in 12-tone music and literary allusions? If classifying something as art requires separating viewers into groups of the unenlightened who simply don't get it, and the few aristocratic elites who do, then that turns artistic endeavors into something "elitist and "unAmerican" (as people who want to defund the NEA would say), and certainly derails them from (what I think is) their primary goal, which is to communicate and uplift humanity -- yes, even the unwashed masses.

*ptooey* Sorry -- something sharp and metal in my mouth there.
Clara

Offline AndyT

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Re: Legible "calligraphy" and Asemic Writing
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2015, 11:21:04 AM »
Oh my, I did enjoy that Clara!  The notion that intellectual elitism is "un-American" is delicious ... shame on you, Harvard!   ;D

Only teasing ... actually I agree with you generally speaking.  My point is to do with the way we perceive texts as distinct from pictures, hence my inverted commas around "art".  Here's a nice piece of calligraphy from Bickham's "The British Monarchy or a New Chorographical Description of all the Dominions Subject to the King of Great Britain...":

I think it's fair to say that the way we interact with something like that is to read it, left to write and top to bottom.  We absorb the words and only then - if we have an interest in calligraphy - do we notice the forms, texture and layout.  Essentially it's a literary experience, certainly on first inspection.

Here's some more calligraphy:

That's another text, written in the infamously impenetrable Luxeuil miniscule.  It is readable, but only with a lot of concentration and head scratching - so it's my contention that most non-paleographers will process it as an image rather than a text, and immediately focus on the overall aesthetic rather than literary attributes.  (Incidentally, there's a school of thought that Luxeuil miniscule was never intended to be easily legible, but I digress).  By the same token, if we're presented with a clearly written text in medieval dog Latin or Old High French, the tendency is to ignore the words and admire it as a work of art.  Or "art" - after all it's a text which has become linguistically obscure to the average viewer.

Interesting that you should mention Earl Lupfer, the great all-rounder, who could turn his hand to everything from plain penmanship (text) to flourishing ("art").  One of the things he was noted for was the signature combination, which is somewhere in between: there's a good deal of fun to be had in trying to untangle the spaghetti and work out exactly what those initials are supposed to be (and how the heck he did it). 

Some contemporary calligraphers and lettering artists seem to have been thinking along similar lines.  I don't think it's appropriate to link directly to images, but Thomas Ingmire and Charles Pearce come readily to mind.  What they do is undoubtedly calligraphic, but there's also a conscious subversion of the text, presumably to focus on the aesthetic.  The old art / craft division probably plays into this.

I'm not making any value judgments here, just pointing to two different ways of seeing.  I'm more a creature of libraries than art galleries, so I'm not about to do down the legibly written word.  And for the record, I'll take the Ramones over Webern every single time.  ;)


Offline jeanwilson

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Re: Legible "calligraphy" and Asemic Writing
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2015, 01:15:37 PM »
Ulfert Wilke and Yves Letreme are two more artists who have beautiful asemic writing/artwork.

http://www.thegalleriesdowntown.com/dynamic/artist.asp?ArtistID=1099

http://www.yleterme.be/

Wilke passed away, but Yves (a Belgian) frequently teaches in the US.

wikipedia has a brief article about asemic writing which does a fairly good job of explaining the concept.

Cloud Gate Dance Theater is another wonderful melding of calligraphy with another art form - dance.
I saw them perform and it was a-m-a-z-i-n-g.
You can Google them and see a variety of articles.
Also Google calligraphy dance and there are other interesting hits.
This YouTube clip shows one that was a favorite, but it was so much better in the theater, in the dark, at a distance.
It really looked like brush strokes.
I think the one i saw had longer sleeves-strokes.



this one is called Cursive - and is pretty cool



you can see why so many teachers of calligraphy liken traditional study to ballet.

Offline AndyT

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Re: Legible "calligraphy" and Asemic Writing
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2015, 05:15:34 PM »
Thanks for the videos, Jean.  It must be quite something to see on stage.

I deliberately steered clear of mentioning asemic writing, although it's worthy of a thread in its own right.  There's no tension between the linguistic and the aesthetic when the writing has no meaning.  The work of Ingmire and Pearce is definitely text based, but it's folded, spindled and mutilated ... for instance Pearce's gorgeous Romeo and Juliet panel does contain a good chunk from the play, but you can't read it in any conventional sense.  Well, not at first sight, anyway.  Ingmire's Ten Commandments for the St John's Bible just falls apart into a cloud of unrelated letters.  It's worth noting that both are formidable calligraphers by any standards, but they've chosen to explore an expressionistic technique which has more in common with abstract painting.  I think there's a lot more scope for making an individual artistic statement by taking this route than in "modern calligraphy" - also, it has to be said, there's a much smaller market ... but far more potential for getting your work on the walls of the Guggenheim.

Offline Ken Fraser

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Re: Legible "calligraphy" and Asemic Writing
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2015, 06:18:47 PM »
It's worth noting that both are formidable calligraphers by any standards, but they've chosen to explore an expressionistic technique which has more in common with abstract painting.

I'm not impressed by those who can, but choose not to........in the name of "art"

« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 06:24:22 PM by Ken Fraser »

Offline AndyT

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Re: Legible "calligraphy" and Asemic Writing
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2015, 07:44:31 PM »
That's a gross misrepresentation.  Do you honestly think that Donald Jackson, of all people, would have nagged Ingmire to contribute to the project which is clearly meant to be the culmination of his life's work (the St John's Bible) if the result was going to be of a mediocre standard?

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: Legible "calligraphy" and Asemic Writing
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2015, 09:04:03 PM »
Andy....I have compared notes with others who do asemic writing and we tend to agree that even when we want the finished product to be completely abstract, we still have to have a series of words running through our head as we write. I have not found anyone who can make pleasing marks without having words - or at least a string of letters- running through their head. I suppose there are people who can run something other than words and letters in their head, but so far, I have not found any. I'd love to find someone who was not dependent on words so I could ask them what they did have running through their head. Maybe music? Are there any others on the forum who do asemic writing?


Offline Ken Fraser

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Re: Legible "calligraphy" and Asemic Writing
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2015, 04:01:25 AM »
That's a gross misrepresentation.  Do you honestly think that Donald Jackson, of all people, would have nagged Ingmire to contribute to the project which is clearly meant to be the culmination of his life's work (the St John's Bible) if the result was going to be of a mediocre standard?

I don't admire (or like) the modern work of any of the three gentlemen you cited, which is a purely personal view.
From the reproductions I've seen of it, the St.John's Bible does nothing for me.

Lettering is a means of communication and if it's altered to the point where it's illegible or unintelligible, it's useless as lettering, and has moved into an area of abstract art.

Simple, consistent, umadorned, evenly-balanced hand-lettering can be very beautiful in its own right and doesn't need any "modernisation".
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 10:41:35 AM by Ken Fraser »

Offline AndyT

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Re: Legible "calligraphy" and Asemic Writing
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2015, 05:40:00 AM »
Andy....I have compared notes with others who do asemic writing and we tend to agree that even when we want the finished product to be completely abstract, we still have to have a series of words running through our head as we write.

Warning: outrageous digression ahead.  Do you have Clangers in the States?  If not, this video will be instructive.  There's a mildly scurrilous story about them, which against all the odds seems to be true.  It's my pleasure to pass it on in this link:)

I'm sure you're right about the process of asemic writing, after all humans seem to be hard wired to seek patterns and meaning ... generating random numbers is a notoriously thorny problem for that reason.  There are probably different levels of non-meaning too.  Some asemic writing seems to hint darkly at having something to say, whereas other examples appear to be exercises in texture and ink manipulation with no subtext, as it were.  I do hope there will be more discussion of this peculiar artistic niche.

Ken: thank you for your explanation.  I fear that you will not approve of this thread if it continues in its current direction.


Offline AndyT

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Re: Legible "calligraphy" and Asemic Writing
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2015, 12:59:39 PM »
[Response clipped for relevance.]

 I'm sure there's been some talk about Tolkien's elvish script here, and whatever you think of fantasy literature, that sort of thing can look rather good.

You'll have to make allowances for an old grump who's well past his sell-by date!  :(

Cheer up!  I'm not after converting anyone ... it's just something which interests me.  :)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 09:26:22 PM by Erica McPhee »

Offline ericp

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Re: Legible "calligraphy" and Asemic Writing
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2015, 01:10:26 PM »
My take on asemic writing (and the art based on it) is that you have on the one hand a pure graphical aspect (which in my opinion is the least interesting) and on the other hand a discussion about the relationship between humans and language.

Asemic writing is actually perceived by our brains similarly to that of a foreign language.  You know that this writing is supposed to mean something, but that meaning is unknown to you.  I entertain the idea that some people out there (and I exclude myself from this lot  :D) who feel compelled to explore via graphical means what others might be doing, say, in a novel, things regarding memory, meaning, ambiguity, and whatnot.

One thing I do enjoy about calligraphy is how the form supports the content, i.e. how the chosen hand helps to underline and strengthen the message, as opposed to purely elegant and vacuous flourishes on some boring legal document.  Of course in asemic writing, you cannot have this.  The lines are purely graphical and the meaning hermetic.

The asemic approach uses an indirect message, so maybe here the classic phrase applies (the medium is the message).

[ On a side note: this reminds me of the movie by Peter Greenaway, the Pillow Book. ]

Offline AndyT

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Re: Legible "calligraphy" and Asemic Writing
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2015, 01:58:50 PM »
... this reminds me of the movie by Peter Greenaway, the Pillow Book. ]

A particularly interesting film.  That opening bookbinding sequence is enthralling.

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: Legible "calligraphy" and Asemic Writing
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2015, 03:03:52 PM »

Warning: outrageous digression ahead.  Do you have Clangers in the States?  If not, this video will be instructive.  There's a mildly scurrilous story about them, which against all the odds seems to be true.  It's my pleasure to pass it on in this link:)

have never seen Clangers before - thanks for posting
and loved the other article, too
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 09:15:12 PM by Erica McPhee »