Question regarding Yasutomo Sumi Ink

[GrayStratCat]

Hello all, new member here but would like to ask for some guidance regarding this ink.  I have read countless reviews of this ink being used for calligraphy and especially copperplate, all of which were quite positive, so decided to give it a try.  Unless I received a bad bottle, I found it unusable for copperplate.  I couldn't get a decent hairline regardless what I tried with the ink straight from the bottle.  I tried several nibs including a Leonardt Principal, Hunt 101, a blue pumpkin and even a Brause 66 EF!.  So I said to myself, let's try thinning it.... that didn't work.  So then I said to myself, let's try some gum arabic with ink straight from the bottle.... that didn't work....then I tried thinning and THEN adding some gum arabic... and that didn't work.  I also tried several different papers that work fine with my other inks and that wasn't the problem either.

Any insight, tips, comments, secrets would be greatly appreciated.  Since I don't do Sumi calligraphy, this bottle (which is almost full) just might end up in the dust bin....

Thanks in advance y'all.
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[Erica McPhee]

Oh that sounds so frustrating! I don’t have any experience with that ink. Hopefully someone else will chime in. 

[Bianca M]

That is odd.  Is it the round green bottle?  You should be able to achieve excellent hairlines with that formula, assuming you're working with a suitable paper, and I see. you've tried several papers and nibs.  What is happening with the ink?  Is it feathering, or are your hairlines too broad? Other issue?  I know there are a few different formulas, so it would be helpful to know which one you are having trouble with.

Have you tried Moon Palace Sumi?  It's wonderful.  I dilute to 2:1 ink:water.

[GrayStratCat]

Thank you for your reply Bianca!  It's not the green bottle, but I've attached a picture of the bottle I'm having trouble with.  I may not have mentioned it in my previous post, but the paper I used was HP Premium 32# which works absolutely fine with my other inks.  I've also attached a picture in my next post  (I can't seem to attach 2 photos to one post) to show the differences. 

Thanks again!
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[GrayStratCat]

Bianca, attached is a photo showing the difference side-by-side.  On the left is an example of Higgins Eternal with some gum arabic added, the examples following to the right (which should be blatantly obvious) are of the red label Yasutomo Sumi.  No hairlines to speak of, and the broad strokes are a total mess.  The nib used in this example was a Leonardt Principal. 

Best,
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[Bianca M]

@GrayStratCat ah, you're using the KY series, which I personally don't particularly like.  You might want to check out this video review of Sumi ink by Connie Chen, where she reviews both KY and KF series Yasutomo, among other Sumis.  Note that she pours the KF before talking about the KY series and vice-versa, so pay attention to her speech and writing with those two reviews, vs. the order in which she shows the bottles. 



Connie achieves a better hairline than what you're getting, but she is using Rhodia paper vs. HP, which will make a difference. I know from experience that the KF series (green bottle) performs far better on Rhodia vs. laser paper.  Regardless, you may want to try a different Sumi going forward to see if others suit your liking better than the KY series.  Also, if you don't have a Rhodia pad, it's well worth trying that as well.

Something else to consider: the KF series tends to corrode nibs, whereas KY seems not to (KF has a shellac in it, KY does not).  This is why I like Moon Palace - better performance, and it does not corrode nibs.  The Kuretake 60 also corrodes nibs, in my experience, but performs nicely. 

[GrayStratCat]

Thanks again Bianca.  The video was informative for sure and I appreciate your pointing out the difference between KY and KF.

I had ordered a bottle of Moon Palace and coincidentally it showed up last night.  I tried it this morning and it performed much better... but I ended up cutting it with distilled water to a 50:50 ratio to get the flow I was looking for.  The difference between Moon Palace and the Yasutomo is night and day.  Not sure what I'll do with the bottle of Yasutomo... but I do know it won't be used for copperplate.  As for vellum, I do have a few pads of Rhodia... and I do realize it produces much finer hair lines... but as a personal preference I just don't prefer it for pointed pen.

Be well!
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[FlowerCityLetters]

I've had the same issue with that sumi, unfortunately. But I love moon palace diluted that same way. If you have a chance to try vermillion sumi, that's a treat. It writes beautifully, but I just wish I had more excuses to write in orange ink.

[GrayStratCat]

Interesting, folks here are saying the Yasutomo Sumi is not the cats whiskers... but all the reviews I've read say the opposite.  Wondering what all those folks who gave the Yasutomo 5 star ratings would do if they ran across some REALLY DECENT ink?  LOL   

[Bianca M]

If you have a chance to try vermillion sumi, that's a treat. It writes beautifully, but I just wish I had more excuses to write in orange ink.

@FlowerCityLetters Agreed - vermillion is so gorgeous and wonderful to write with.  Inevitably I find little specks and smears of it on my desk every time I use it for days afterward (how does this happen???) but it remains irresistible. 

@GrayStratCat LOL.  It really all boils down to personal preference.  People that are having success with the Yasutomo KY are likely using it on other papers and/or in other ways, or maybe they don't care for a super fine hairline.  I know that you were comparing it to Higgins Eternal, an ink which I personally loathe.  But many people love it, it's a trusted ink for calligraphers both new and experienced, and it looks like it was working nicely for you! 

[GrayStratCat]

@Bianca M I know the polar love/hate stance of Higgins Eternal of which you speak.  Either folks love it or loathe it.  I find if I add a decent about of GA, it works exceptionally well for me.  Also wanted to let you know I am truly enjoying the Moon Palace.  I can't quite get the fine hairlines with it that I can with Higgins but I'm getting there.  I guess that's because I've been through bottles and bottles of Higgins and this is my first bottle of Moon Palace. 

While we're on the topic of ink, do you have a preference for iron gall?  I'd be interested in your opinion.  Thanks!

Be well,
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[RD5]

Something else to consider: the KF series tends to corrode nibs, whereas KY seems not to (KF has a shellac in it, KY does not).  This is why I like Moon Palace - better performance, and it does not corrode nibs.  The Kuretake 60 also corrodes nibs, in my experience, but performs nicely.

Wait, shellac corrodes nibs? That's good to know.

[GrayStratCat]

I will defer the final answer to @Bianca M , but being a woodworker, I often "cut" shellac flakes with denatured alcohol to make liquid shellac.  I would think the alcohol used to 'cut' any type of shellac flake (which happens to be an excretion from an insect) would be the culprit causing corrosion since most alcohols are corrosive to metals. 

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[Bianca M]

Also wanted to let you know I am truly enjoying the Moon Palace.  I can't quite get the fine hairlines with it that I can with Higgins but I'm getting there.  I guess that's because I've been through bottles and bottles of Higgins and this is my first bottle of Moon Palace. 

While we're on the topic of ink, do you have a preference for iron gall?  I'd be interested in your opinion.  Thanks!

I'm glad to know you're enjoying the Moon Palace!  As for iron gall, I've only tried a couple and really haven't had enough experience with them to give a useful opinion.  Here's a thread discussing different ones (I'm sure there are others, but this has a link to a member review/discussion at the end):

https://theflourishforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=2158.msg30030#msg30030

[Bianca M]

Wait, shellac corrodes nibs? That's good to know.

@RD5 my understanding is that shellac does corrode metal, and since that seems to be the only difference in the KY series (no shellac) and KF series (with shellac, and eats my nibs!), there seems to be some truth to it.  I know there are many members here who aren't concerned about acidic inks, since nibs are highly disposable, but I personally avoid them - especially since I primarily use vintage nibs!

@GrayStratCat I didn't know that about shellac (insect excretion)!  Good insight.