Author Topic: Seeking critiques on my first (shy) copperplate  (Read 11711 times)

Offline sarthina

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Seeking critiques on my first (shy) copperplate
« on: May 18, 2016, 05:37:39 PM »
Hi All!
I've been reading as much as I could from this forum (which is ...wow!) and some other links posted here and there and now I finally manage to pass over my fears ( :o ). So I took the advice I've seen here (somewhere) and started writing with a simple fountain pen. It is my first written page in copperplate and I am very anxious to hear your opinions - what to practice and how,  what letters seem OK, the spacing a.s.o.
The x-height is 6 mm - I understand this is a good way to start for a beginner, mistakes in letter forms are more visible. Ratio is 3-2-3. I will try Vitolo's guidelines too and see which of the two are more comfortable for me.
So, anyway, I hope I'll manage to upload the image. Thank you.
Take a look here: @sarthina_scribit

Offline Ergative

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Re: Seeking critiques on my first (shy) copperplate
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2016, 04:10:06 AM »
That looks terrific! Very disciplined, good eye for slant and spacing. I think you're absolutely ready to move on to the dip nib. Here are some things to be aware of when you do.

First, you'll want to start out with some of the beginning exercises to get a sense for how to create the shades evenly and smoothly, and transition nicely between thicks and thins. This will almost certainly require adjusting your grip and the way you hold the pen to align with the slant, because a monoline fountain pen can create nice letters  no matter what angle the nib is with respect to the slant, while a flex/dip nib really does need to have the nib aligned parallel to the slant, so the tines split evenly for shades. Make sure you practice how this works, rather than just picking up a dip nib and trying to write with it.

When you do move onto the letters, you'll want to adjust your spacing, because shaded strokes are thicker than monoline strokes. The nice, evenly space letters that you produced with the fountain pen will look cramped if all the downstrokes are thickened. Also, the loops in your ascenders and descenders will need to be widened, for the same reason.

Finally, a few comments on the individual letter shapes, which you can fix just as easily, or more easily, when you are using the real dip nib:

-The final stroke of your n and m and p can be too curvy, concave rather than straight down and a final ending downturn. In "attempt" this is pretty clear with both "m" and "p", as well as the "n" in "watching". Your "p" is better in "pen" and your "n" is good in "strong".

-Similar to above, try to keep your straight strokes truly straight. In "a" sometimes the stem can get a big curved inward, as in the second "a" in "actually."  This is something that gets more pronounced to the end of the page, because in the first two lines your "a"s are all pretty good, with nice straight stems.

-Remember to watch the slant! You're really, really good at this already -- better than me, certainly -- but sometimes you diverge a bit, as with the "h" in "watching".

-Try to make the connecting strokes join up with the next letter at the same height every time. Sometimes the join is at the top of the minim, as between your two "p"s in "copperplate" and sometimes it's much closer to the bottom, as with the "rp" in "copperplate". If they're at a constant height between all the letters you get this lovely sequence of pointy triangles in the counters along the baseline of your letters. If you cover up the top half of the minim line it looks like waves on an ocean when you do it right -- as you've got in the "actual" of actually.

-Even with the monoline nib your spacing can get cramped. For example, "this" on the second-to-last line, and "strong" on the last line.

In any case, carry on! Things may get more uneven when you add the new complexity of dip nib, and it might seem like you're regressing, but don't be discouraged. You have an excellent understanding of the letter forms already, and I think you'll be producing lovely copperplate before too long.
Clara

Offline AndyT

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Re: Seeking critiques on my first (shy) copperplate
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2016, 06:10:34 AM »
Hello Sarthina.  :)

Copperplate isn't my thing, but I just wanted to say a) don't be shy, and b) that's looking very good.  Attractive, regular and highly legible: loads of potential there.

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: Seeking critiques on my first (shy) copperplate
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2016, 11:30:23 AM »
I always like to second the recommendations to spend time with the basic strokes. There are usually 6 that include the loops, but, I recommend saving loops for later. If you work on the over-curves, under-curves, and basic ovals, that is plenty to work on. By the time to get the shapes precise and add the swells where they should be, that is enough. Of course, there is always the temptation to jump ahead and write words, so use that as your reward after you have spent at least 20 minutes on just i, n, m, u, t -- and combinations of those letters. Hopefully you will post more practice pages.

Offline AnasaziWrites

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Re: Seeking critiques on my first (shy) copperplate
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2016, 01:53:48 PM »
Of course, there is always the temptation to jump ahead and write words, so use that as your reward after you have spent at least 20 minutes on just i, n, m, u, t -- and combinations of those letters. Hopefully you will post more practice pages.
Words like:

mint, inn, mutt, mini, inuit, minim, minimi, tin, minimum, in, mitt, it, mum, mi, nun, mu, tint, nit, nut, tutu, un, unit ?

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: Seeking critiques on my first (shy) copperplate
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2016, 02:25:44 PM »
Of course, there is always the temptation to jump ahead and write words, so use that as your reward after you have spent at least 20 minutes on just i, n, m, u, t -- and combinations of those letters. Hopefully you will post more practice pages.
Words like:

mint, inn, mutt, mini, inuit, minim, minimi, tin, minimum, in, mitt, it, mum, mi, nun, mu, tint, nit, nut, tutu, un, unit ?

thanks, this list is perfect. be sure to pay attention to the spacing between the words. the most common error is to put two much space between words. many teachers recommend the space between two words to be the amount of space that would have been taken up by the letter i

Offline sarthina

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Re: Seeking critiques on my first (shy) copperplate
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2016, 05:05:00 AM »
Hello again.
First, many many thanks for the replies you posted so far. Turns out I did the right thing signing up here. This is the right place to be for me. So THANK YOU again ..
Now for the 'fun' part:
- I finally got my first nibs  :D and started using them. Result: a whole different matter from what I thought initially. I followed jean's advice and started working on basic strokes. Correction: "intended basic strokes".  :o They were ...far away from what I thought of. And I feel like plunging in one second from Mt Everest into the bottom of the ocean... Of course, that means nothing more than that I have to ...well, swim back to surface. We'll see.
- and for some technical details: those "cut-off" tops and bottoms are a pain. I read the theory behind the process but it doesn't work (yet). Still working on my pressure - it's not even. Not to mention the "muscular movement" which I've read quite a lot of but it turns to be something very very difficult to master. I also have a question in this respect: how important is this kind of movement after all? I mean, isn't it the final result which matters rather than the way to achieve it?
- another big (BIG) issue for me is ink and paper. It is very very difficult to find calligraphy paper around here. Not to mention inks. I only found Parker Black and Pelikan Brillant Red, but they are both used for fountain pens. They work however, though I suspect they are a bit too fluid... Paper is some 120 gsm coloured paper. Of course, I've chosen light colours. Still digging online stores for good and cheap paper and ink.
- as for the nibs: I am very surprised that almost everybody praised the Nikko G but I find it quite stiff. I have to apply quite a lot of pressure to shade, although the hairlines are fine and delicate. Leonardt Principal EF on the other hand became my favourite. I also tried a Gillott 303 which I find it scratchier. Way too scratchier. Or may be I just have to try another one - the current one might be damaged..

Take a look here: @sarthina_scribit

Offline AndyT

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Re: Seeking critiques on my first (shy) copperplate
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2016, 10:47:22 AM »
... "muscular movement" which I've read quite a lot of but it turns to be something very very difficult to master. I also have a question in this respect: how important is this kind of movement after all? I mean, isn't it the final result which matters rather than the way to achieve it?

Muscular movement is mostly associated with American handwriting styles, which is to say Spencerian and in particular business writing, for which it's important.  For copperplate ... not so much.  Maybe not at all, in fact - it's a slower, more considered style which benefits from finger movement according to many.  Whole arm movement, which is completely different, is desirable for making large shapes, but it's rather early in the proceedings to open that can of worms.  In my opinion it is most certainly the end result which matters.

- another big (BIG) issue for me is ink and paper. It is very very difficult to find calligraphy paper around here. Not to mention inks. I only found Parker Black and Pelikan Brillant Red, but they are both used for fountain pens. They work however, though I suspect they are a bit too fluid... Paper is some 120 gsm coloured paper. Of course, I've chosen light colours. Still digging online stores for good and cheap paper and ink.

Well, paper weight is neither here nor there.  What you need is paper with a surface which will resist the ink bleeding into it, which is easy enough to find in Europe and the US, but can be a headache in some other markets.  Trust me: a pad of Rhodia or Clairefontaine will make life easier, but if you can't get it the most promising options are likely to be high class office or correspondence papers.  Most of the good performers I've found are in the 70-90gsm range, but it's how the paper is made rather than the weight which counts.

Some fountain pen inks work well, others do not.  If you can get Pelikan fairly easily, it might be worth trying blue-black.  Ideally you could do with a proper calligraphy ink of some sort though, because it will make a difference.

I also tried a Gillott 303 which I find it scratchier. Way too scratchier. Or may be I just have to try another one - the current one might be damaged..

That would not be unheard of.  :)  Even a good 303 is a scratchy nib however, on account of being so sharp ... perhaps better saved for later.

Offline sarthina

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Re: Seeking critiques on my first (shy) copperplate
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2016, 06:38:12 AM »
Thank you, Andy, for the info. It was very helpful and as a result I finally found some decent paper to practise on. I bought a couple of pads (that are not bleeding at all, some Herlitz ...smthg) and some sheets of paper designed for "writing" which they aren't bleeding either (so much  :o ).
Also found that the ink is also of high importance. Same paper bled with a different ink. And if some beginners are reading this - I emphasize that the combo paper-ink is of high(est) importance. This advice I've read it too in the forum, but never imagined it is of such importance. So, beginners be aware.
As for my "work" I thought of posting some of it though it doesn't look pretty at all, but I am eagerly waiting for critiques. And thanks in advance for all of you who are kind and willing enough to spend their precious time and knowledge here.

PS : What exactly are "cross drills"???
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 06:41:18 AM by sarthina »
Take a look here: @sarthina_scribit

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: Seeking critiques on my first (shy) copperplate
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2016, 03:38:07 PM »
Maybe you can do some of the groups of letters suggested in earlier posts. Working on individual letters is ok at the very beginning. Joining letters as you are getting started will be very helpful. There have been comments about working within a grid to get very precise replicas of the letters. Maybe one of the members who is good with generating guide lines can come up with one that has a grid to help make the basic strokes more symmetrical.

Your work shows plenty of good beginning strokes. With patience, guidelines, and a discerning eye you will be able to refine your lettering.

Offline AndyT

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Re: Seeking critiques on my first (shy) copperplate
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2016, 10:49:28 AM »
PS : What exactly are "cross drills"???

They're one of the exercises which comes up quite often in US textbooks, where you write lines of the same letter with long joining strokes, turn the paper 90° and do the same again.  Very good for building up rhythm, and quite enjoyable too once the pattern starts to build up.  Not sure how beneficial they'd be at this stage whilst you're concentrating closely on getting the letter forms right though - maybe something for a bit later.  The examples below are from Palmer's Penmanship Budget.

Offline sarthina

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Re: Seeking critiques on my first (shy) copperplate
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2016, 11:29:19 AM »
Thanks @jeanwilson for all your replies. I'll try joining letters and see how that goes. Now that I'm comparing my (only) 2 images I can see that the last one is ...pathetic. May be it's because in my mind I didn't really "trust" this type of practice. No, it's not the right term ("trust") and I CAN comprehend that practicing "forms" rather than "letters/words" is beneficial. It's perhaps my way of doing it - I think I can't really get my mind into thinking that those forms are parts of letters after all. For me -right now- they are just forms, and a bit meaningless....I will try joining letters as you said and it might work better. And hope my whining about from above doesn't offend anybody.
And Andy, thanks a lot for clarification about cross drills.
Take a look here: @sarthina_scribit

Offline sarthina

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Re: Seeking critiques on my first (shy) copperplate
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2016, 01:21:49 AM »
Hi all!
I've tried my hand on some words as jean and AnasaziWrites suggested, but I begin to have the feeling that I won't be ever able to produce nice flowing script in this style.... Anyway, I'll post some of my practice pages and hope I'll get some answers on specific issues - such as why letters are not symmetrical, should they be "slimmer" or more rounded, what is wrong with the script in general etc etc.
Something I noticed: in order to get my nib aligned to the slant I have to rotate my paper much more than I've seen in videos and pictures on the internet. Could be something wrong with my grip and hand position? Or I should consider using a metal flange oblique pen holder? The one I have is a plastic one, "Speedball" I think it's called. My nib point is not centered to the middle of the holder itself, but to the right of it. Could that be a real problem, or it's just a matter of how you should hold it?
Take a look here: @sarthina_scribit

Offline AndyT

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Re: Seeking critiques on my first (shy) copperplate
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2016, 04:40:02 AM »
... I begin to have the feeling that I won't be ever able to produce nice flowing script in this style ...

Oh yes you will, if you want to enough.  Remember, we're not talking about artistic flair here: it's copying.  Put in enough work and you most assuredly can do it.

Regarding pens, that's shopping, not calligraphy.  There are people who can write exemplary copperplate with the cheapest straight pens available, or with quills for that matter.  Others can make the Speedball work.  And some people write with the paper at right angles to them.  However, if you are still using the Principal or any other nib much longer than a 303, chances are you won't be able to centre it in the Speedball, and for that reason a brass flange would be better.  Some people prefer the point very slightly to the right (that's me, incidentally), but it's only a matter of a millimetre.  I doubt whether your hand position will be making much difference so long as it's a fairly normal one, but by all means post a photo if you're really concerned.

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: Seeking critiques on my first (shy) copperplate
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2016, 07:29:59 AM »
The most encouraging part of your practice is what you say in your post more than what it written on the practice pages. It is obvious that you really want to get good at this activity and you are willing to put in the hours and are open to suggestions. Without being there in person, it is hard to know what to recommend with your tools and the direction of the paper. I agree with Andy that getting the tip of the nib centered is very important. I looked back at previous comments and you felt like the Nikko G was too stiff. I'm not sure you can get a Nikko G centered in a Speedball, but if you can, you might want to try it again - and here is my reasoning. When I look at your first page of monoline, I think it showed a lot of promise. When you switched to the nibs, and are going for really heavy shades or swells, I think that is a lot to add to the learning process. I prefer the stiffer Nikko G and letting the swells be pretty minimal at the beginning. I like to get students to gradually build up to the heavy swells as they are mastering the shapes.

What matters most in the grip - IMHO - is that your fingers are relaxed and not curled up in a tight ball. I wish I could direct you to a video online that shows a relaxed hand in motion - can anyone else steer us to a video?

You might want to go back and do more monoline as a way to get more precise with your shapes. You might even try some tracing to get the feel of the very specific shapes. IMHO, the symmetry of copperplate makes *flowing* a bit difficult if you want to write a very traditional copperplate. I think that is why the quirky styles are so popular - they make copperplate more flowy. But it is pretty hard to do those flowy styles with all the elan that the good ones have - if you have not learned the less-flowy traditional shapes. I prefer Spencerian because I can cruise along more organically and my favorite style is Spencerplate which is a hybrid of the two which probably annoys the heck out of the purists - but it is lots of fun.

Trust me, I put in a ton of hours learning how to make the super symmetrical shapes of copperplate and it can be done. But, it took the most time of any of the styles and it takes a lot of work to get back in the groove when I want to go back to it. Ask yourself if you are interested in only copperplate - and nothing else. If you truly want to master it - you can get there. But, if you like all kinds of styles, maybe you want to jump around a little and have some fun.

I started with copperplate, then about 5 years later, tried Spencerian, and I feel like studying a lot of different styles, including broad edge helped me with my copperplate. But that is my path and I do not want to impose it on anyone. Plenty of people start with one style, master it, and then move on.

Please do not become discouraged. I have a mental image of you hunched over your desk and struggling with just these few pages - and not allowing yourself time to play and bond with your tools. Choose some pieces of your favorite work off instagram or pinterest - print them out in the size you are working and trace them. I remember in my early days doing tracing of actual pieces that I loved. I never showed them to anyone, but it gave me confidence to know that I could make the pen behave and that something gorgeous could come out of my hand.

Keep posting samples. After saying all of this - my top tip would be to try tracing. Can you install a font and print out practice pages to trace? That Milton Two font on dafont.com is a nice one. http://www.dafont.com/search.php?q=milton