Seeking critiques on my first (shy) copperplate

[Estefa]

Sarthina – drop me a line (DM or E-mail, it's on my website) – I'll gladly send you some of the Swiss walnut ink to try (I live in Germany, it's easy to send something to Romania) .

Btw I am just using Pelikan fountain pen ink (4001) for an envelope job, because I needed blue-black, and that seemed the easiest to work with. Way better than the mentioned Calli ink. You can add (I do) some gum Arabic to make it a bit less "fluid".

[AndyT]

... I live in Eastern Europe (Romania to be exact) and getting those ink is like digging for water in a desert.

Ah, but that means you're within the EU, so we can probably come up with some modest Old World alternatives. 

I'd definitely take Stefanie up on her offer of Swiss walnut ink, because whilst I haven't used it I have seen the results and it's clearly good stuff.  I seem to remember mentioning 4001 blue-black before too, which (like all the iron gall fountain pen inks) is a good option for pointed pen.  As for a European equivalent to McCaffrey's, it's not clear to me whether people are referring to the iron gall ink (in which case Blots or Walker's would be ideal substitutes) or a coloured one, but you could do a lot worse than trying a bottle of Roberson's Transparent.

Calli, I strongly suspect, is intended for broad edge calligraphers ... and anyway, acrylic ink is something the devil came up with on a slow day if you want my opinion.   

[sarthina]

Hi!
I thought of posting one of my practise sheet mainly for 2 reasons: 1. everyone to know that I didn't quit and 2. to seek for any criticism that you can provide for me. I didn't post much lately because I understand my letters are not even ...decent at all and wouldn't be nice to overload the thread with ugly letter forms. Nevertheless I still need guidance so...
The ink was a Pelikan red with gum arabic added (thanks Stefanie  ) and used a Nikko G and a Hiro 41 for the last rows. Question on the following issue - I tried writing stuff with a pencil and following the rules for copperplate/engrosser's (obviously w/o shading, but I DID try shading letters after). How come the upstrokes are much better when done by pencil and get wobbly with a nib? 

Sarthina, I hope you do try making walnut ink.  It's not hard or time consuming at all.

I'll try to for sure and I consider the cooking method - hope it'll work. I've already laid my eyes on one of my wife's pots in the kitchen and declared it 'doomed'  . Plus I didn't know about  pomegranate hulls. Cool. I'll try to find the recipe. And since my summer holiday is just round the corner maybe I'll have some fun with it - providing I can find some pomegranates.

[jeanwilson]

I see a lot of progress. You maintain the slant very well and it looks like you are working without slanted guidelines. Maybe you have them under the paper on which you are writing.
Again - I do not see the point in any more time spent on individual letters. The joining of letters and the space between the letters is 50% of writing a script.
Have you read anything about looking at the white space between the letters and making it consistent along with all the other consistency in the actual strokes?
On your individual letters, you are more consistent - but then when you go to words, the letters become less precise. The most obvious place to see this is on the h in thin on the last line. Ignore the loop and look at the white space that is created by the stroke that should look like an n. It is pinched at the top and as you come down there is wiggle left-and-right. My guess is that you might be speeding up and not being vigilant about making each stroke as carefully as you make them when you write them as individual strokes. It is really hard to maintain the precision - but I know you can do it because of the progress you have made so far.

In the words - on the m's, compare the two white spaces that are created in each letter. Can you see how they are different?

I know it is really nit-picky to point out all these details - but that's what you have to do. I recommend you stick with just the short letters and leave out the l, h, y for now - if possible. I know everyone is itching to write all the letters - but it would be nice to see your progress when you just stick to the short letters. You are one of the few people who have been posting regularly, so you could be our best example -so-far- on how to use the critiquing section on the forum.

Thanks for posting the update.

[sarthina]

Thank you, Jean, for taking the time to answer and provide valuable critique. To be entirely honest, I myself can't see much of improvement. The only good thing I see is that I draw the shades thinner than before (I guess) and I understand this is a good thing. Or at least this is what it looks/feels like to me...
Yes, I used guidelines under the paper, but slant doesn't feel much of a problem for me. Getting letters right is. Anyway, I followed (am following) your advice and concentrate on words without ascenders/descenders. I'll scan some of my practice sheets and will post them, it's just that I NEED them to look better - and me being sure they are better. On the other hand I still go crazy when I see I can write/draw the letters quite fine with a pencil and they suck when using the nib...
Thanks again for your time and valuable feedback.

[ash0kgiri]

The most encouraging part of your practice is what you say in your post more than what it written on the practice pages. It is obvious that you really want to get good at this activity and you are willing to put in the hours and are open to suggestions. Without being there in person, it is hard to know what to recommend with your tools and the direction of the paper. I agree with Andy that getting the tip of the nib centered is very important. I looked back at previous comments and you felt like the Nikko G was too stiff. I'm not sure you can get a Nikko G centered in a Speedball, but if you can, you might want to try it again - and here is my reasoning. When I look at your first page of monoline, I think it showed a lot of promise. When you switched to the nibs, and are going for really heavy shades or swells, I think that is a lot to add to the learning process. I prefer the stiffer Nikko G and letting the swells be pretty minimal at the beginning. I like to get students to gradually build up to the heavy swells as they are mastering the shapes.

What matters most in the grip - IMHO - is that your fingers are relaxed and not curled up in a tight ball. I wish I could direct you to a video online that shows a relaxed hand in motion - can anyone else steer us to a video?

You might want to go back and do more monoline as a way to get more precise with your shapes. You might even try some tracing to get the feel of the very specific shapes. IMHO, the symmetry of copperplate makes *flowing* a bit difficult if you want to write a very traditional copperplate. I think that is why the quirky styles are so popular - they make copperplate more flowy. But it is pretty hard to do those flowy styles with all the elan that the good ones have - if you have not learned the less-flowy traditional shapes. I prefer Spencerian because I can cruise along more organically and my favorite style is Spencerplate which is a hybrid of the two which probably annoys the heck out of the purists - but it is lots of fun.

Trust me, I put in a ton of hours learning how to make the super symmetrical shapes of copperplate and it can be done. But, it took the most time of any of the styles and it takes a lot of work to get back in the groove when I want to go back to it. Ask yourself if you are interested in only copperplate - and nothing else. If you truly want to master it - you can get there. But, if you like all kinds of styles, maybe you want to jump around a little and have some fun.

I started with copperplate, then about 5 years later, tried Spencerian, and I feel like studying a lot of different styles, including broad edge helped me with my copperplate. But that is my path and I do not want to impose it on anyone. Plenty of people start with one style, master it, and then move on.

Please do not become discouraged. I have a mental image of you hunched over your desk and struggling with just these few pages - and not allowing yourself time to play and bond with your tools. Choose some pieces of your favorite work off instagram or pinterest - print them out in the size you are working and trace them. I remember in my early days doing tracing of actual pieces that I loved. I never showed them to anyone, but it gave me confidence to know that I could make the pen behave and that something gorgeous could come out of my hand.

Keep posting samples. After saying all of this - my top tip would be to try tracing. Can you install a font and print out practice pages to trace? That Milton Two font on dafont.com is a nice one. http://www.dafont.com/search.php?q=milton

Hi Jean,
I just kept reading and repeating through this post as it also answers lot of my questions. But at the same time brings new questions in my mind.
Ok let me put down my thoughts. They might be scattered, hope you will get them. So when i started with Copperplate. I started with the most basic nib that was available and it was William Mitchell, quite stiff not that flexible and unaware of the different kind of pointed nib styles. It was after i started writing i came across these styles and gradually improvised looking, copying and tracing from random exemplars which i liked. I had a good handwriting and thought will polish it but then realised its not just that but more than that and its very technical. So it interested me even more.

So like a curious kid everything looked so amazing and i wanted to do everything. Those ornamental flourish and those engravers deciplined script and then some contemporary fun script. Even now i feel like lets move on to some other script just for a change and come back to what i want to do which is Engravers. I personally switch to broad pen and it really helps me.

So will it be wrong if i choose one more style and work parallely on it? Especiallly Ornamental as i like the Flourishing and which is quite difficult to achieve. Are there any tutorial or guidesheets on this forum which i can refer to? Or any other source?

Thank you for your patience and reading this far.

Regards,
Ashok

[jeanwilson]

Hi Ashok:
You asked:
So will it be wrong if i choose one more style and work parallely on it? Especiallly Ornamental as i like the Flourishing and which is quite difficult to achieve. Are there any tutorial or guidesheets on this forum which i can refer to? Or any other source?

IMHO, it is fine to work on different styles parallely - if that is what you feel like doing. I really don't think there is any *one way* to approach penmanship - especially when you are learning on your own. When you sign up for a class, I think you need to follow the instructions faithfully for the duration of the class and see what happens. It makes no sense to be jumping around if you have teacher who is sharing what they know in an orderly fashion. But on your own, you really can do whatever you like.
The enthusiasm of the beginner is delightful. At a certain point, you might find yourself focusing on one style for a little longer. Or maybe not. There are many different styles of learning and you will do well to find which methods are best for you.
IAMPETH.com has a lot of videos and lessons. Start there.
I think flourishing and lettering dovetail nicely. With both, you are getting the feel of the basic strokes. Start small and work your way up to the more complicated flourishes. Personally, I like to get students interested in borders. Anything that gets you to practice precision and rhythm at the same time will help you with both lettering and flourishing.

You mentioned that you have done some tracing. Keep tracing things that inspire you if you enjoy it. Tracing was something that I enjoyed when I first started because it was nice to see that my hand could do what I wanted it to do.

Please continue to post your work - and ask for critique - or ask questions. I'll be out of town for a couple weeks, so not sure how often I will be checking in - but I'll be back the first of August.

[ash0kgiri]

Hi Jean,

Appreciate your time for replying back. And the clarity you bring to the table. Been a starter you are always confused and excited at the same time and really want to make your writing look like the one you like. But it's not possible without right guidance or method. Its just how early you understand. In one of the book from IAMPETH the introduction page says,  you can't be successful and achieve perfection if you don't understand the process and technicalities. Which i realised it lately. Wish I could get a teacher and found a class which teaches penmanship. But i don't thing there is one in India.

Posted few of my practice sheets in 'kind critique' section. Have a look. And i would be waiting for your detailed comments on the same.
Have a safe journey.

Thanks again,
Ashok

[Os]

Hi, @sarthina ! I'd like to add a bit of my two cents here (although Jean's instructions have been very good! I learned a thing or two myself!). If you are having trouble with your grip, say heavy-handedness, I think a great way to loosen up and relax is to do running ovals. It's also going to help build muscle memory. Personally, I combine forearm movement with finger movement while writing Copperplate to help lessen fatigue on my fingers. When I was beginning, though, it was all just finger movement and I would always find my grip tightening as I continued to write. I'm not actually heavy-handed, but the strain I put on my fingers began to manifest as incredible pain. Only then did I try doing running ovals. I no longer do drills on the fundamental strokes, but before writing, I always make it a point to do a round or two of running ovals to help me loosen up I hope this helps! I'm not yet at a level to be considered as someone creditable to teach calligraphy, but I just wanted to share my own experience as to how I have conquered a heavy grip, which I think is a common problem for beginners, seeing as we are so used to holding ballpoint pens.

Cheers, and don't give up!

[sarthina]

Thanks everyone for writing so many interesting things. Problem is I'm on "holiday", right now I'm on a summer camp and barely have time to breath looking after so many kids... Plus my own. Energy levels are dropping by the day. Kids have a natural born talent to wear you out so fast...
 By the end of week I'll be going home and hope I can get some time to use my beloved nibs... So, just for the community here to know, I'm not dead. Yet  .

[jeanwilson]

Thank you to Os for adding to the discussion. I completely agree with your advice. Even if I did not agree, I think it is important for others to speak up because it reinforces the point that there are many ways to approach the subject. Thanks again for taking time to post.

[ash0kgiri]

Hi, @sarthina ! I'd like to add a bit of my two cents here (although Jean's instructions have been very good! I learned a thing or two myself!). If you are having trouble with your grip, say heavy-handedness, I think a great way to loosen up and relax is to do running ovals. It's also going to help build muscle memory. Personally, I combine forearm movement with finger movement while writing Copperplate to help lessen fatigue on my fingers. When I was beginning, though, it was all just finger movement and I would always find my grip tightening as I continued to write. I'm not actually heavy-handed, but the strain I put on my fingers began to manifest as incredible pain. Only then did I try doing running ovals. I no longer do drills on the fundamental strokes, but before writing, I always make it a point to do a round or two of running ovals to help me loosen up I hope this helps! I'm not yet at a level to be considered as someone creditable to teach calligraphy, but I just wanted to share my own experience as to how I have conquered a heavy grip, which I think is a common problem for beginners, seeing as we are so used to holding ballpoint pens.

Cheers, and don't give up!

Hi Os,

Thanks for this valuable advice. Unknowingly i also tend to tighten my grip as i get engrossed in writing, and then it stars paining.
I will definitely try and do some oval drills before.

Keep writing,
Ashok

[sarthina]

“I’m back”. 
I think I owe the community here an explanation regarding my looong silence (of course, you can just skip to the next paragraph in case you’re not interested in the ‘why’). The thing is that after we got back from the holidays, we had to remodel our kitchen. That meant that everything was done by my wife and myself. I am a DIY-er in most of what I’m doing and I considered remodeling the kitchen to be a good project to do. That took over a month to do (put down a wall, new floor, new floor / wall tiles, some plumbing, painting, etc ). And then my mother-in-law ( ) asked me to consolidate the exterior terrace at her house (which is at the 1st floor, the floor tiles were old and with cracks so the water from the rain found ways to infiltrate into the hallway at the ground floor). That took me until about 2 weeks ago. And you know, it is not wise to decline a mother-in-law’s wish….

So, I’ve just restarted working with my nibs. A BIG THANK YOU (again) to Stefanie who was so very very kind to send me some nibs and some walnut ink. Yeah! I consider myself very lucky to know you, guys, and to be part of such a wonderful community. I’ll post part of my latest practice sheet – used a Velleda nib from Stefanie ( ) and was very thrilled to write with it. Now, as for my practice: I know it’s not much and I’m not happy with it at all. Of course, any comments will be greatly appreciated.
OK. There is something I don’t quite understand. I took a closer look at Baird’s well known “letter to students”. And at some of Brown’s instructions too. What I’ve noticed is that both of them used a greater (??) slant – I mean it’s not 55 degrees, but less, somewhere around 50. Which I thought it’s something specific to spencerian… Question is: what slant are you guys using? Or is it ok to write engrossers on 50 degree slant? I know Dr Vitolo uses 55, for example, but I want to know your position on this matter. Secondly, I zoomed in quite a lot, and it looks like Baird used lots of pen lifts. Like for letters ‘m’ and ‘n’. I know you are supposed to lift the pen whenever you finish a shaded stroke, but it seems to me that he lifts his pen when finishing an upstroke too. Is that true, or it’s just an optical illusion? And, speaking of letters ‘m’ and ‘n’ – I can’t write them well. Can anyone tell me what is the problem? Or how can I fix it?

PS Apart from my apologies for writing a long and boring novel here, I start being off-topic: I’m in the process of making my own walnut ink.. Yeei! Everything was boiled down, a few hours for 3 days, and now I don’t know how much alcohol to add. Or what else to add to finish it? Thank you.

[sarthina]

Trying to wipe off my shame for the previous image I'd posted: it looks like crap. This one is a bit better. I know, just a bit.
Any comments and guidance - welcomed.

[sarthina]

Hi everyone!
I'm posting my latest practice sheet not because it's something worth looking at, but because ...yeap!, I'm using my first ever walnut ink made by myself  . For the moment I'm not really sure if the color is the right one - but it's something I made and it's working...

Ooops. It's not color. Should check my scanner settings.
OK. Now I think I have a color version.