Please tear apart my Copperplate

[ultraQuiche]

Spacing is an issue and today I managed to make some pretty unsightly compound curves. I am pleased with 'orningtime', minus the 'M'. My hairlines are a bit wobbly, I included a closeup to better show the wobbles. Any cure for hairline wobbles? Out of curiosity, do you guys rest the palm of the hand on the page/table? I need some advice to make the larger capitals without the shakes. I think the only way to do that is to write from the shoulder.

My script is getting better and better, and I am thankful for that. Please help take it to the next step!

[Roseann]

I think it's really great.
What nib did you use for this?

[ultraQuiche]

Hi Roseann,

I used a Gillott 303. I don't know why they get a bad rap for being snaggy! I think they're wonderful as soon as you break them in, but to be fair, the 303s are the only points of that class that I have used. Thanks for the compliment.

I can only imagine how its vintage counterpart would feel. Anyone want to chime in on this?

[AndyT]

Nothing to tear apart here, surely?

I'm a fan of the 303 too just lately, it's brought my writing on a step or two and it's the snagginess which has done it.  The first time I finished a page without a single catch was a major milestone.  Brian Smith told me that the vintage ones are a great deal better, but didn't elaborate ... I think the new ones are pretty darn excellent in themselves, but I haven't had a bad one yet.  It'll be interesting to hear what you make of the Principal.

[Linda Y.]

Your letterforms are beautiful, it's obvious you take great care in making sure the tops and bottoms are squared off, and the hairline-to-curve transitions are very well done. I don't see any issues with spacing as I see a very even picket-fence effect when I look at the miniscules together.

You already know you need to practice more of the majuscules

Only thing I can think of - if you are modeling your script to that of a traditional Engrosser's script, currently the scale of the majuscules to your minuscules looks to be 2:1, and in Engrosser's Script I believe it should be 3:1. The 2:1 proportion makes it look more casual and modern. Also the 2nd line "Script Practice" is a bit too close to the line above so the ascenders & descenders run into each other if you're not careful.

Just my 2c 

[ultraQuiche]

Aha! Thanks for the ratios. I will be perusing Joe Vitolo's videos and will see how to make the compound curves with a 3:1.

Somehow I like the lines close together, but I often run into that problem. I should skip a line like you suggest, and that will solve two problems... I should leave space for the bigger capitals, and my ascenders and descenders won't run into each other. Thanks a lot!

[ultraQuiche]

Nothing to tear apart here, surely?

I'm a fan of the 303 too just lately, it's brought my writing on a step or two and it's the snagginess which has done it.  The first time I finished a page without a single catch was a major milestone.  Brian Smith told me that the vintage ones are a great deal better, but didn't elaborate ... I think the new ones are pretty darn excellent in themselves, but I haven't had a bad one yet.  It'll be interesting to hear what you make of the Principal.

Aren't they! Yet I'm greedy for something better, even though the poor things have served me well. I will surely post when I receive and spend time with the Principal. I plan to get a batch of Estie 357s too, Ken amongst others likes those. I've only ever used the Gillotts for Copperplate so far, so who knows... Maybe they're really terrible and I'll have a really easy time with either of the aforementioned points.

[Starlee]

I love the stuff you post. Your writing is so consistent and wonderful! Sometimes we are our own worst critic. If there was anything, and really, I'm nit-picking here because you asked, is to make it look more Copperplate-y and less modern, try rounding your tops of your m's and n's as equally the bottoms. But really, it's so nice!

[ultraQuiche]

Thank you! Do you mean to say the last stroke of the m's and n's? I'm indeed going for a traditional look.

[Moya]

Just to chime in and say "All of the above" - your work is gorgeous, and I think when you work with a better ratio it'll become really stunning.  It feels a little squashed as it is.

I say this well aware that it's a whooole lot better than mine and I feel a little hypocritical   But it also helps me see what I need to improve in mine, too!

[ultraQuiche]

Wow, well said, that's exactly it, it's squashed. Thanks.

[Estefa]

I agree with the comments – your work looks very precise and clean, and if you change ratio and line spacing, it will look even more elegant!! It would be surely a good idea to have a look at Dr. Vitolo's E-book, if you're going for Engrosser's look – or at the original lessons by Lupfer or Zaner! Look at the what I call 'small ascenders', in 'p' especially, in Engrosser's (other than Bickham-style classical E. Roundhand), the 'p' extends over the x-height, often as high as the 't'. Also the 'a' extends and often has a small shade on top, also the 'r' can be higher than the regular x-height – that's of course up to a certain point a question of your personal taste . I just mean, it's good to have a look at the variations that are already out there imho.

About your question how to achieve smooth capitals – I don't think they look very shaky btw , but if you want to work on that I'd do these spiraling oval exercises … not fast, but precisely! I often do them in pencil as a warm-up, and then in ink, you can do one oval without shade, the next with, I think that helps me so much to get more consistency and flow with the capitals!

[Estefa]

Sorry, there's a stupid typo in that. I meant the 's', not the 'a' with a small shade over the x- height!! Stupid auto-correction on the mobile …

[ultraQuiche]

Thanks Stefanie, I don't know if the tumblr question managed to send but you answered it here, so it must have. See how the first 'p' appears really close to the g in the top line? I like extending my p's, but doing that I'm this case would make it bump into the g... And so I had to do the same thing to the next one for consistency. And I also like the extended s (: So another reason to space the lines out.

Very good, I'll do the spiral oval exercise like your recommended. By the way, do you stop after the compound curve before extending it, or do you do it in one fell swoop? Sorry about the interrogation.

[Estefa]

No, I didn't get your tumblr question?? I have an "ask" button on my page (if you open it in a browser), or did you write it as a commentary? Then I just might not have seen it … well, but I am glad I could answer it anyhow, that's funny! (And it's possible that my page doesn't work at the moment, we are trying to link it to my new URL where I want to have my calligraphy site later …)

Anyway. Yeah, the problem you run into here is mainly the line spacing. I learnt in basic typography never to use a line spacing that is so small that the ascenders and descenders run into one another! Of course you can use that as an artistic effect, if you want to achieve a texture-like look of a page (this can look great with broad pen, do you know the work of Rudolf Koch?

http://moorstation.org/koch_memorial/meisterwerke/evangelien.htm

(Erica, as R. Koch doesn't live anymore I hope it is ok to link to a site that is dedicated to his work. He worked long as a teacher and would be happy, I guess, to know that his calligraphy is still honored …)

So, that's an aside. With pointed pen you can do that as well, but I find it quite difficult. I have guidelines with reduced line spacing that I use for envelopes for example, but in that case I plan the text I want to write (make a pencil sketch). So I can adjust with flourishes, crossing lines, leaving a bit more space, make one capital bigger and the other smaller, use ascenders or descenders that are shorter (without a loop often in that case). I am very much in the beginner state with these though!! And I am not sure if it works with this really classical style you are learning. So I would work with a ratio of 2:1:2 as Linda suggested, and really leave one line for every part of the letter, if you know what I mean. You need two lines for the g-loop, one for the x-height, and two lines for the h-loop, and the same for the lines above etc.

Regarding the compound curve, no, I don't stop (you mean at the bottom of the letters, I guess?). I think that disrupts the flow, to be honest. I am more following the style of the Universal Penman where you can see no such breaks in the line (even if I adopt details from later styles … I am not very puristic in that regard), and I think this stopping comes from imitating the engraved calligraphy… but I am not sure, I just don't do that).

No problem about interrogation, that's what this forum is for .