Copperplate Minuscules - Group 4

[NevadaDeb]

Oh, my!  First post in Group 4. I must be dreaming. Did I really make it this far?
Okay, this is my first practice sheet of words, rather than letters. I know I have a long ways to go, but let the journey begin!

[NevadaDeb]

UGH! Salman, please don’t even bother commenting on that first posting of mine in this group. It’s beyond awful. I can see tons of glaring errors, and I’m working on all the letters individually. I’m not ready to do words yet. I would delete that post if I could. Give me another week to get some serious practice under my belt. This is too embarrassing for words. 

[Salman Khattak]

@NevadaDeb

There is plenty good in your work above Debi. It is great that you are holding yourself to a high standard but don't discount the progress you have made :-)

I will be looking forward to your next attempt.

- Salman

[NevadaDeb]

Salman, thank you so much! I really jumped the gun with my first post, well before I was ready. I've now spent considerable time on each letter, and feel I'm somewhat ready to post words again.

I have to give a big Group 4 Shout-Out to your "grad student," Vipul, who jumped in to help me with the basic letters in this group. He reiterated everything you have shared, helped me see my glaring errors, and also gave me specific resources to study (Zanerian Manual, etc.) for each letter and problem area. It saved me so much time, and I am deeply grateful for his tutoring. Nothing like "Grad Students" helping "Freshmen Students" by paying it forward, and stepping in when they see someone floundering, to get them back on track!

Here is what should have been my first pass at these letterforms. I can certainly see room for improvement, but I also see progress from the previous post, that abject disaster which will haunt me forever. Hah! 

[NevadaDeb]

Hi Salman,

In studying the ‘f,’ and how to use it both as the first letter of a word, and with a letter preceeding it, I went to your video with the “misfit” letters of Group 4. You answered a question I had regarding how to best space the blob when the ‘f’ is not the first letter of the word. It was very helpful, and since I have seen many other of your students struggle with this as well, I thought I would bring your response from the You Tube video here to the Group 4 tutorial, and also ask for your input on the examples I have attempted to make, and which, if any, seem the best to use when ‘f’ is not used as the first letter of the word.

Your You Tube response to my question was:

________________________________________________________________________________

     “The exit hairline in this style of ‘f’ is indeed a bit of a problem in that it creates a hot spot on the left side of the shaded stroke. I try to make it as close to the left side of an ‘f’ as possible, but it is quite okay to go over the entry hairline into the ‘f.’ “
________________________________________________________________________________

I’ve been trying to see just where the blob would fit in best, or if it’s acceptable to not even use the blob in some cases.

Here is how I interpreted the information, and the different possibilities using this particular style of ‘f.’

 Thank you in advance for responding and clarifying this for me!

Debi

[Salman Khattak]

@NevadaDeb

Debi - you have taken to this group of letters quite quickly. Very good work. Your notes on the exercise are spot on - if a bit too harsh at times :-)

Your letters structure is quite good. The next step is consistency. It looks like you are trying to make the 'o's a bit too narrow - let them breathe a little. The 'a' in your 'f' examples is good. Having such a narrow 'o' forces other letters like the 'r' and 'n' to be quite narrow which is hard to do resulting in an accordion like texture. For example, both examples of 'risk' have more relaxed spacing than say 'faxed'. The general rule for an 'o' is to be half the width of the height - this gives a pleasant looking shape that works well with the proportions of other letters.

As for the 'f' - all options would work in various places. I tend to make the entry hairline into the 'f' a bit higher (as if I'm going to make an 'i-n' join) this makes me me join the 'f' a bit higher but allows room for the 'blob'. In the last 'afr' I would put a light blob in the space after the 'a'.

- Salman

[NevadaDeb]

Salman,
Thank you so much for your detailed explanation and suggestions. I have been practicing all day, (with breaks, of course!) and here is my last practice sheet. I have done a self-assessment, and hope I have covered all the issues I see. I will continue to try for consistency and refinement. Your advice is so incredibly helpful! 

I have found it helps me to start out my day going through each group, and warming up with each group’s letterforms. Then, I start on Group 4. I do see some progress, and that is thrilling. But I also see that I have a long way to go to become consistent, and for my letterforms to start to “sing.”
It’s sure a wonderful journey, and I’m savoring every moment.

Thank you again!

[Salman Khattak]

@NevadaDeb

You do a very detailed analysis of your work - the things you are picking up show your experience and deep understanding of lettering. It is really cool to see - I really enjoy studying your exercise sheets.

May I suggest taking a small step back for a little bit though? There are a couple of letters that can use a bit of refinement.

The first is the 'r'  - the whole of the blob on the 'r' and the 's' should be above the waist line. This will give you space to move the shoulder of the 'r' to about a 1/4 of the x-height below the waist line. It is far too low in the example above.

You can let the bottom part of the 's' go a bit more to the left - it is o.k. to have the finishing dot overlap or even be on the left side of the entry hairline.

The closing stroke in the loop of the 'f' is too heavy. Make it as a hairline for now and look for the nice almond shape of the 'j' stroke - speaking of which, the loops on the 'g' and are bit too round in the bottom part. The closing stroke of the 'e' is getting a bit heavy too.

The second 'c' in the 'x' works out better if you let the belly fall a bit below mid x-height. Since the max weight of the upside down 'c' is above mid x-height, this will give you room to tuck the second 'c' under it a bit without having to touch the two and risk ink bleeding into the hairline. I hope this makes sense :-)

I will be looking forward to the next one.

- Salman

[NevadaDeb]

Wow, Salman! Just, WOW!

You gave me a half dozen fantastic tips to make my letters dance without stumbling. These are the very issues I have been stumbling on, and exactly what I needed right now. Vipul also noted these earlier this morning, and I feel like my practice sessions are no longer simply repetitions of errors, but actual refinement. This is EXCITING STUFF!

I LOVE your explanation of the second stroke of the ‘x’ tucking under the belly of the upside-down ‘c,’ and that’s such a visual hint that makes absolute sense to me. Yes! YESSSS!

I’ll be working on the six areas you noted for me:

*The ‘r’ blob above the waistline.

*The shoulder of the ‘r’ at 1/4 of the x-height.

*Reduction of the steepness of the ‘r.’

*Making the closing loop of the ‘f’ less heavy, and instead, making it a hairline and keeping the almond shape.

*Lightening up on the closing stroke of the ‘e.’ How did I let that get so sloppy?! Yikes.

*Making the loop of the ‘g’ less round. Another sloppy error. Double Yikes!

These are fantastic tips I will be working on today, tomorrow, and hope to soon have better examples to show.

Thank you SO MUCH for your detailed suggestions. I’m getting to work on them right now.

YOWZA!

Debi

[Diane Bennett]

Hi Salman,

I seem to be having lots of issues trying to get the sentence spaced properly.  I have looked back at others work in the tutorial to try to work it out.  I even tried how my granddaughter does it (she started school last year and use Finger Space).  I tried using guidelines with lots of vertical lines,
all to no avail.

I am posting this attempt hoping you can offer some advice on how to get it spaced.  I am at a loss trying to figure it out.

I look forward to your reply.

[NevadaDeb]

Hi Salman,

This is today’s practice. I’m still working on the issues with shape of the ‘s,’ and think I’m doing better with the X’s, and failing miserably with the Z’s, with the waistline loop all over the place, and no two the same. Changed my nib, and should be doing this practice sheet over before posting, but no time to do that. So apologies for the sloppiness!

[NevadaDeb]

Salman, I feel like I’m hitting a brick wall. I’ve done some more words, and hope that you can help me hone in on the major problem areas. I’m just not SEEING it as I should, and I know I should be able to see it now. I could use a fresh set of eyes, and a bit of guidance. I feel I’m lost in the woods, and going around in circles.

[Diane Bennett]

@Salman Khattak

Hi Salman,

I gave the spacing another go.  This time to get the word spacing I wrote a word, lifted my pen at the exit stroke then did an overturn without pen on paper to get the start of the next word. 

Sorry about the messy assenders and decenders, I was concentrating on the spacing.

I think this looks more evenly spaced than my other attempt, but I shall await your verdict.

Kind regards

Diane

[NevadaDeb]

Hi Salman,

Could you clarify something for me, regarding the ‘s’? I’m not sure I’m interpreting your instructions correctly. I can interpret it two different ways.

You wrote that “The shaded stroke in the ‘c’ is heaviest just below the midpoint of the x-height. This means that the heaviest weight of the upside down ‘c’ as used in an ‘s’ would be just above the midpoint of the x-height. This last point is important as putting the weight at or below the midpoint will make your ‘s’ visually dissimilar in slant to the other letters.”

When we’re looking at the ‘s,’ as an ‘s’ and not an upside-down ‘c,’ where is the weight—above or below the midpoint?

I’m looking at your ‘s,’ and I see that the weight is below the midpoint. I turn it upside down, and I see the weight is above the midpoint. I can interpret your instructions two different ways. I’m not sure which you mean. Where is the weight of the shade when look at the ‘s’ as an ‘s,’ and not an upside down ‘c’?

This is probably obvious to everyone but me, and I sincerely apologize for being “muddy headed.” I just want to be absolutely certain of what I’m shooting for.

Thank you in advance for your clarification!

[Diane Bennett]

@NevadaDeb

Oh the pesky "s". I feel your pain lol..  I too struggled with this one, sorry I can't give you any words of wisdom on how to fix it.  But, don't be to hard on yourself, it will all fall into place.

I drove myself crazy and snapped a few pens throwing hissy fits, then completely out of the blue I did it, I don't know how or who was guiding my pen, but it happened.  Take a break, look back at how much you have progressed, and it will come. 

Your work and progress up to now is amazing, it is something we all forget.

Regards

Diane