Copperplate vs Engraver's penlifts on baseline.

[Daniel Mastrofski]

Question for any expert practitioners of these two scripts:

Having gone through several Zanerian manuals, the instruction for Engraver's is to lift
the pen at the baseline before making your ligatures.  After getting this info pushed on me
Joe Vitolo and much to my delight it made such a huge difference in the quality of my Engraver's
that I also wonder is this lift also instructed by the masters of Copperplate?
I am a big follower of Paul Antonio online and I can't tell if he is just doing some speed writing in his videos or if when he has a commission does he use lifts on the baseline for copperplate as well?

It seems everyone employs a different technique here and I will just have to follow what gives me the best result but I'd be happy to hear what the practitioners of copperplate here think. 

Cheers!

[Daniel Mastrofski]

Well, I ended up PM'ing Paul himself and he was kind enough to clue us in. 
Paul says no lift on the baseline with copperplate.  Still, would love to hear
what you guys may say about it...

[sybillevz]

The old masters insist in their copybooks that the Round Hand should be executed in one move (no pen lifts until the end of the word except for some letters). But you should note that they were using a different pen (broad quill) and their primary goal was not beauty but efficiency.
That being said, the English Writing Masters were very attached to the beauty of their script, but the instructions they gave was aimed at people who wanted to learn a the cool new handwriting system.
For ornamental purposes, they say that to have a beautiful hand, you need to write slowly and stop more often to make better quality strokes. But they don't stop after every shade like for engrosser's.

I may be wrong but, I think Engrosser's script techniques were inspired from the copper engraving techniques : the engraver made all the stroke separately. First the shaded strokes, then the thin strokes (I still need to do more research on this)... On some engraved 18th century examples, you can see a gap between hairline and downstroke, but the calligraphy wasn't done that way.

The shape and technique of the Round Hand evolved quite a bit during the 18th and beginning of the 19th century, so it really depends on the exemplar you are using.

[Ken Fraser]

Although Copperplate is written fairly slowly, I never lift the pen at the baseline as I prefer, where possible, to have the lettering flow more naturally.

[Daniel Mastrofski]

@sybillevz
@Ken Fraser

Thanks Sybille & Ken!

Also noting that the rhythm of the script can be aligned with the breath. 
Downstroke exhale, slightly faster.  Slowing down starting the ligature, inhale. 
After the end of a ligature perhaps a good time to dip.  I've noticed getting in that rhythm
Helps me produce a much better product, not to mention it's a bit meditative and peaceful moment.

[Erica McPhee]

The old masters insist in their copybooks that the Round Hand should be executed in one move (no pen lifts until the end of the word except for some letters).

I find this so interesting! Since early January I have been working on refining my Engrosser's Script. I started with reviewing lots of old texts (like those on IAMPETH). One of my favorites is,"The New Zanerian Alphabets: An Instructor In Roundhand, Engrossing, Designing, Etc."

Under "Materials for Roundhand or Engrosser's Script", it says, "Use an oblique pen holder with the point of the pen well elevated."

This from the Zanerian Art College, "Raise the pen nearly every time you come to the base line, as indicated by the little openings...The forms given are such as are used by the best engrossers in the world... Raise the pen often: as often as indicated. These plates were prepared for the purpose of revealing rather than concealing pen liftings and joinings."

I changed the way I did it (having previously not lifted at the baseline) and now lift almost every time I come to the baseline. It has improved my script quite a bit. As I develop speed again though, I can see where sometimes I may not lift.

This is for a "free style roundhand" - (exemplar is like Madarasz style):

"The small letters must be executed with deliberation and retouched with care... Raise the pen often in the small letters, usually after every downward stroke."
"The pen should be fine and flexible, and the holder should be oblique. Some of the flourished strokes were made with a straight holder held as in flourishing."

It's interesting, they actually switched from an oblique to a straight to do the flourished strokes. So one has to ask -- why would they just not do all of it with a straight holder? IMHO, it would seem a benefit was had in using an oblique for traditional strokes and then another benefit in using the straight holder for the flourished strokes.

If that helps ... 

[Erica McPhee]

P.S. In the Zanerian Manual of Alphabets and Engrossing, p. 3 in the "Lessons in Roundhand or Engrosser's Script" by E. A. Lupfer, it says, "The pen should be raised often - every time at baseline."

See on the image where he shows the arrows at the baseline to "raise pen at base line."

[Erica McPhee]

Also noting that the rhythm of the script can be aligned with the breath. 
Downstroke exhale, slightly faster.  Slowing down starting the ligature, inhale. 
After the end of a ligature perhaps a good time to dip.  I've noticed getting in that rhythm
Helps me produce a much better product, not to mention it's a bit meditative and peaceful moment.

I noticed this too! I call it yogalligraphy! 

[Ken Fraser]

P.S. In the Zanerian Manual of Alphabets and Engrossing, p. 3 in the "Lessons in Roundhand or Engrosser's Script" by E. A. Lupfer, it says, "The pen should be raised often - every time at baseline."
See on the image where he shows the arrows at the baseline to "raise pen at base line."

I think that Daniel was querying whether or not the same frequent "pen raising" technique applied to Copperplate (English Roundhand) as to Engrosser's Script.

I believe that Engrosser's Script is drawn as opposed to Copperplate which is more of a written script. This may account for a different technique.

As I mention earlier, I think that the technique (in Copperplate) of constantly lifting the pen at the baseline disrupts the flow of the lettering, and consequently its appearance. - just my opinion 

[Tales from the Nib]

Oh this is an interesting topic, I lift quite a lot for my engrossers script, and some days I find myself lifting on upper curves like on "n" and "m" which is possibly a bad habit.
I must say as a novice and coming from doing art, that engrossers to me is more like drawing than writing, and I also find flourishes easier and more natural, with a straight holder, but use an oblique for engrossers, again the arty thing, the straight feels more normal, like holding my pencil.
But with more calligraphy experience, I might have a different opinion 

[Erica McPhee]

I think that Daniel was querying whether or not the same frequent "pen raising" technique applied to Copperplate (English Roundhand) as to Engrosser's Script.

Hi Ken!
You are right! My bad. For some reason, I mixed this up with the other post about Spencerian vs. Engrossers.  I also missed the point that Daniel said it right in the OP, that Zanerian says to lift. UGh... brain fog. 

[sybillevz]

Just like Ken, I was referring to English masters of the 17th and 18th century. Engrosser's script came later (19th century) and was based on the later interpretation of the ornamental variation of the English Round Hand.
I've been researching all this history and plan on sharing everything soon, I'll let you all know when it's ready 

[Salman Khattak]

I think it is worth considering that the English Roundhand in The Universal Penman that we so love for it's fluidity was actually executed with a lot of lifts - The burin is lifted many times during engraving letters for printing. If engravers could trace flowing script with many a lift of the burin, we  should be able to do the same thing with a flexible nib.

- Salman

[Estefa]

Just like Ken, I was referring to English masters of the 17th and 18th century. Engrosser's script came later (19th century) and was based on the later interpretation of the ornamental variation of the English Round Hand.
I've been researching all this history and plan on sharing everything soon, I'll let you all know when it's ready 

Can't wait for your finds, Sybille !

[Estefa]

I think it is worth considering that the English Roundhand in The Universal Penman that we so love for it's fluidity was actually executed with a lot of lifts - The burin is lifted many times during engraving letters for printing. If engravers could trace flowing script with many a lift of the burin, we  should be able to do the same thing with a flexible nib.

- Salman

I understand what you're saying, @SMK – still the burin was a means to an end, as it was just used to copy the original script for reproduction.

I am pretty sure that if Mr. Bickham would have had acces to a scanner, he'd have prefered to use scans of his original writing to reproduce the Universal Penman, instead of going to all the trouble with the engraving.

If you (and many others) find the often lifting method helpful to achieve a beautiful scripts, that's of course fine – but still there is nothing wrong imho with writing Roundhand without stops in the curves. In the words of Mr. Bickham himself: »Writing will never look ornamental without […] a smooth stroke perform’d with boldness and freedom.« (It's from »Penmanship Made Easy (Young Clerks Assistant)«.

Also, what @sybillevz said earlier – making so may penlifts would not have made writing fastly possible (and Copperplate can be written pretty fastly, with a quill – I tried it. Because you don't have to square the tops etc., it comes naturally from the form of the nib ). This is even more so especially if you compare Roundhand / Copperplate with the Gothic handwriting scripts like Secretary Hand or all the Bastardas that were used for business at the time. They all require more strokes per letter – and with that, more time.

John Jenkins, the Author of »The Art of Writing«, I think American, 19th century, also goes to great lengths to explain that the undercurve like in l, i etc. is one of the most important strokes because it »requires both the pressure and rise of the pen«. So no pen-lifting after the pressure stroke. I'd like to know if he was using already a metal pointed dip nib – seems so to me as he talks about pressure strokes. Maybe you know more about that, @Ken Fraser ? (You'll all find a description about Jenkin's book here: http://theflourishforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=739.0.)

@Erica McPhee, you also posted this quote by Mr. Zaner already, but I'd like to highlight the following :

»Raise the pen often; as often as indicated. These plates were prepared for the purpose of revealing rather than concealing pen liftings and joinings. For that reason they appear broken and unfinished, but they tell the truths of execution.« (Page 6 from the New Zanerian Alphabets)

What I mean: the many gaps I see often on Engrosser's script were, if I understand the quote above correctly, not meant to look like that. The script also should look like written continuously.

I admit that there are some calligraphers who manage to make the gaps a pretty (and probably very deliberate) detail in their overall script – but in many cases, to my eyes, it just looks disruptive.