Author Topic: A minor issue with my exemplars for Foundational Hand  (Read 469 times)

Offline Chessie

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A minor issue with my exemplars for Foundational Hand
« on: March 16, 2023, 11:53:08 PM »
I'm a relatively new broad-edge dip-pen user (I prefer the Brause tips) and I've been having a problem with my various exemplars of the Foundational Hand.  I can't post them since I believe they're probably copy-written material, but I'll describe the issue.

Sheila Waters does an excellent exemplar of Foundational Hand, but I can't seem to consistently replicate it using a dip pen.  I do grind my own ink + sometimes use bottled sumi-e ink, but in large part it hasn't been an issue except on specific letters, namely 'x', 'e', and 'z'.  Digging into other exemplars, in Sheila Water's book 'Foundations of Calligraphy', she has some *extremely pointed* opinions on other exemplars of Foundational Hand (including Irene Wellington's).  She doesn't call them out by name, but there's an entire section on 'doing it wrong'.

In the Speedball Textbook, 25th Anniversary edition, the page shows both Sheila *and* Irene's exemplars but they're fundamentally opposites when you dig into the elemental pieces of them both.  Sheila thinks hooked Xs look silly.  Irene's all about them.  Sheila uses a 0 degree pen angle to put the cross bar on a 'Z'.  I CANNOT make that work with a dip pen on 32 lbs HP Premium paper, even with thick ink.  Irene uses a 30 degree angle for the whole thing, but Sheila is very particular about calling that out as wrong.  Sheila's 'e' minuscule appears to involve skating the pen to finish the letter for the second stroke, but it's the only letter in her exemplar that seems to require that. 

Worse, the Calligraphy Bible has a section on Foundational Hand that is...odd.  The z looks wonky and the f is just floating there.  The e seems to be a cursive? 

How does one go about deciding which of these exemplars to use?  If I mix exemplars am I going to end up with negative consequences later in my practice or do you just create your own version of the foundational and use that? 
« Last Edit: March 16, 2023, 11:57:13 PM by Chessie »

Offline Erica McPhee

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Re: A minor issue with my exemplars for Foundational Hand
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2023, 01:52:23 PM »
Hi Chessie,

This is a great question and really gets to the essence of calligraphy, imho. There is no debating Sheila Waters was one of the best broad pen calligraphers in the world - an expert. I recall a Facebook thread many years back when another highly regarded calligrapher posted a beautiful flourished pointed pen piece and Sheila called it out as, how can I put this delicately, unrefined. What proceeded was a thread of some well known and some not known calligraphers arguing about it. But what it essentially boiled down to was opinion.

Being a lover of all things flourished - I defended it. (And trust me, I don't put myself even near the same level as Sheila in terms of skill. I know my lane.) But, she favored broad pen which utilizes minimal flourishing. She was also a purest and pedantic in the best sense of the word. Those who have studied with her know this (and sought her instruction for this reason, myself included).

One of the things I have discovered while researching historical Engrosser's script is that while there is an accepted standard of what it should look like there are a variety of ways in which both the capitals and lowercase were made - even for the most formal of scripts, even from the masters. The height of the t, d, and l differed, where the i and j were dotted varied, etc. My point is, you will always find variations in even the strictest exemplar. While some calligraphers could spend a lifetime arguing which one is "correct", I say use the accepted one you most like, as long as it has well-made letter forms.

In time you will find that you change how you make certain letters. Some will argue there is only one way to truly make it correct. I hope we hear some arguments/pointers from that side. For now, you are on the right path by seeking out strong exemplars and instruction from calligraphers like Sheila and Irene. Look for more examples from say Julian Waters, John Stevens, Donald Jackson, and Sue Hufton just to name a few. Look at their finished work to see if you note any variations from the exemplar in Sheila's book.

Also, consider that many of them, like Sue Hufton, often do work with a pointed brush instead of a broad edge as you can manipulate the brush in ways a broad pen would not work. Likewise, I took an Italic class from John Stevens who manipulates the pen in a way I had never seen before (and thought I could never do) but eventually really changed how my letters looked for the better.

I have no experience with Foundational, sadly enough, so I can't make any suggestions in terms of your specific challenges. Hopefully someone else will.
Warm Regards,
Erica
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Offline TeresaS

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Re: A minor issue with my exemplars for Foundational Hand
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2023, 02:47:05 PM »
I would also consider what your end goal is.  If it is Certification through IAMPETH, I believe it is judged by Ann Camp’s Pen Lettering.  I think you may be like me, in search of the “Gold Standard Exemplar”.  Coming from a science background, not having a gold standard is unsettling!

To throw more into the mix, I’ve seen well known and respected calligraphers use anything from a 3 to a 4.5 x-height.  That can change how letters look also.

I practiced on and off for quite a while from Sheila Water’s book, but the most improvement I made was by taking an online class.  I still haven’t learned the capitals!

I am only a hobbyist, and mostly only do pointed pen… but I do feel like knowing your goals and also what looks good to you will steer you straight .  Follow your heart and have fun!
Teresa

Offline Erica McPhee

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Re: A minor issue with my exemplars for Foundational Hand
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2023, 03:35:06 PM »
Excellent advice and observations @Teresa !

I took a look at both books and gave a go at the ‘z’ and ‘c’. Can you please explain the difficulty you are having @Chessie in making the ‘z’? You must turn either your hand or the pen in order to get the zero degree angle. I used the same HP paper and some thicker ink I have but also did the same with McCaffrey’s and Walnut ink - both sort of watery and was able to accomplish it. None of these are as crisp as an India ink would produce or a textured paper. It’s a lot of ink for a copy or laser paper to absorb.

Sheila has a note on the “Irene” type ‘x’ that says, “too fussy and cluttered.” This would lend itself back to the comment I made about Sheila’s discriminate use of anything flourished or “extra” - especially in the foundational hand.

I’m not sure what you mean by “skating” but the second stroke of the ‘e’ is carried around the curve and into the first stroke. I was a bit surprised to see it is not a third stroke instead of being carried around the curve, especially since the bowl of the ‘a’ is made with a similar stroke except upside down and it is separated into two strokes. Perhaps this is because of the direction the pen must travel, down and around on the ‘c’ which would require an upstroke on the ‘a’ bowl, versus a down stroke and then across.

I hope that is helpful.
P.S. Tap on the image to see it full size.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2023, 03:36:39 PM by Erica McPhee »
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Erica
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Offline Chessie

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Re: A minor issue with my exemplars for Foundational Hand
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2023, 03:53:20 PM »
Oh, that picture is EXTREMELY helpful.  Turn pen *or* hand. Awesome, that's useful.

Incidentally, I may have misspoken when I said 'broad edge pen'.  I'm terribly new and still learning all the terminology. 

I used a dip pen with the Brause nibs?  I think your example was with a fill-able parallel pen, right?  The dip pens are sometimes cussedly difficult to put to paper because the multiple tines spread out on the paper a little and can dig in quite badly, gathering up fibers as they move across the page (and consequently, wet ink).  A parallel pen would probably be an easier tool for me to be learning with, but I love the sensation of the dip pens for reasons I can't adequately explain.  Probably inclement madness of some sort.

The notion to take an online course is one I've had lately a few times, though if anyone has one they can recommend that would be extremely helpful.


Offline Erica McPhee

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Re: A minor issue with my exemplars for Foundational Hand
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2023, 08:27:44 PM »
You are correct using broad edge pen, as it’s a generic term.

I used a holder and Tape nib and some ink which may or not be acrylic based (can’t remember), but watered down. You may want to try a different nib. I find the Brauses can be very stiff and scratchy until really worn in. You shouldn’t have to apply much pressure and the tines should splay equally.

I like the parallel pens but find the ink bleeds more on various papers.

I’ll keep my eyes open for a foundational course.  :)
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Erica
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Offline Erica McPhee

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Re: A minor issue with my exemplars for Foundational Hand
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2023, 08:52:44 PM »
I found this online Foundational course for on sale for $15.99 (for the next three days). Intro to Foundational

It looks like fun. I’m not sure if the class is in Spanish with English subtitles or not. But Leo Calderón is an amazing calligrapher.
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Erica
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Offline Erica McPhee

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Re: A minor issue with my exemplars for Foundational Hand
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2023, 08:56:43 PM »
If you are serious about learning, this looks like a fabulous class with Gemma Black. It’s a pre-recorded, at your own pace, class:

Intro to Foundational with Gemma Black
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Erica
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Offline K-2

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Re: A minor issue with my exemplars for Foundational Hand
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2023, 10:04:10 PM »
Hi, @Chessie

You have excellent advice from @TeresaS and @Erica McPhee -- There is no one true perfect way in any calligraphic script; there are only (and have ever only been) many variations with respect to purpose and pleasure. And thank goodness for that, or my already difficult paleography job differentiating the work of long-dead utterly self-effacing medieval scribes would be even more ridiculous.

Here are a few practical notes about broad edge calligraphy (which is mostly what I do along with paleography and some painting). I prefer Mitchell nibs to the Brause ones, and I avoid the clip-on reservoirs. If you're having trouble getting the ink started, give the nib a little side to side wiggle on the paper to get it going. I also really like Parallel pens. I think 32# HP premium paper can sometimes get overwhelmed by the amount of ink broad edge nibs lay down, especially if you're using sumi (liquid or ink sticks). Walnut ink is my go-to for drafting layout on 32#HP, but if I'm going to be working on letterforms, I use Rhodia dot or graph paper for better ink control; 90lb watercolor paper if I really need to be serious about control during practice sessions (and even the cheap versions of 90lb watercolor paper are good enough). I usually use walnut ink for practice & layout, because it's less expensive (especially the crystals, which also travel well), and it's gentler on metal nibs than sumi, which can be kind of corrosive if it's lacquered.

I'm flagging the rest of this for pedantry, in case you just want to stop reading now, and just soak in Teresa & Erica's terrific advice to follow your heart, your eyes, and your goals for using the script.  Like seriously - there is no calligraphy police who are going to take you to calligraphy jail for not following a particular exemplar rigorously enough, except with regard to getting certified by IAMPETH or some such, as TeresaS says. But if you're just starting to explore the whole broad edge dip pen experience, you're probably a little ways from that - and really, if you get good at using the tools, you'll be able to learn whatever script you like to whatever exactitude time and practice permit.

I'm also tagging @Zivio - because pedantry! (Hello, Friend!)

If you really want to get to the foundations of Foundational, you could check out Edward Johnston's own book, Writing & Illuminating & Lettering (1906): https://archive.org/details/writingilluminat00johnrich/mode/2up, where he publishes the first exemplar of what would come to be called "Foundational".

If you're using David Harris's Calligrapher's Bible, you're seeing Harris's version of Johnston's z on p.249 of W&I&L. Here Johnston shows how Foundational, which he calls "slanted pen" is devised from Roman and half-uncial forms. When he starts calling it "Foundational" he references Caroline minuscule from a 10th-century English exemplar, the Ramsey Psalter (https://www.bl.uk/collection-items/ramsey-psalter)

Johnston is remembered for his contributions to typeface design as well as calligraphy, and he was hugely influential -- he designed the iconic modern, san serif font of the London Underground! his students founded the venerable Society of Scribes and Illuminators! But if even the actual inventor of Foundational changed his mind about how it should look, as he adapted medieval exemplars for modern usage, I don't see that we need to treat even the great Sheila Waters's exemplars as infallible gospel, whether or not we agree with her very austere aesthetic. /pedantry

You do you! Paleographers 500 years from now will be really happy about it.

--yours truly, K

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: A minor issue with my exemplars for Foundational Hand
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2023, 01:08:05 PM »
One of the highlights of my scribe-life was hosting Sheila Waters when came to Iowa to teach workshops because I was the hostess and got to spend some valuable one-on-one time with her. I've met (and hosted) so many of the rock stars of calligraphy and they are all warm and generous and kind people who are not shy about stating their personal preferences - but they are all gracious and respectful about the different opinions.

When Sheila inscribed her books, she wrote: In mutual love of lettering (I'm pretty sure those are the words - my copy is out on loan.) But the point I would like to make about Sheila is that she was very gracious about skill levels and preferences and alternatives within exemplars. If someone puts in the hours and studies various exemplars and comes up with a set of letters that pleases their eye - that's the joy of lettering.

If someone prefers to do Johnstonian letters and loves the original -- they should do so with confidence - and apologize to no-one. On the other hand, they should not bother trying to convert me to Johnstonian. To me - there have been improvements and refinements.

When people get into a lively debate about which x is best -- to me -- it is all in good fun. I have personally witnessed people like Sheila and Peter Thornton - arrive in a class and meet someone whose only exemplar is the little leaflet that came with their Sheaffer cartridge pen. They were always very kind and gentle about steering students towards exemplars and tools that had a little more finesse. They did not/do not expect everyone to be devoted to just one person's exemplars. That's the coolest part of calligraphy - you CAN make it very personal. Even if you go crazy and start spray painting foundational on railroad cars -- if it's a cool design - they'd be impressed.

Enjoy your journey -- sponge up as much as you can - and at some point you might do some editing and refining. If someone comes after you with a strong opinion suggesting you are not doing something *right* - smile and thank them for their input. They probably mean well - they have just been on a different path.

In mutual love of lettering --- I hesitate to use her line - but, dang, it's a good one.

Offline Zivio

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Re: A minor issue with my exemplars for Foundational Hand
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2023, 03:10:41 PM »
I'm also tagging @Zivio - because pedantry! (Hello, Friend!)

Well hello, dear soul! Yes, you know too well how I love your scholarship and practical input on this forum!

In truth, I’d already been following this thread even though broad edge and foundational hand isn’t something I’ve pursued. As I and certain others have commented elsewhere, learning and practicing handwriting and calligraphy is analogous to music practice and performance in so many ways! @Chessie 's interest in and @Erica McPhee 's comments about Sheila Waters’s practice of the “purest” letter forms reminded me so much of classical training in music. On the one hand, there is zero tolerance for other than “note perfect” playing, but interpretation's a whole other thing.

... There is no one true perfect way in any calligraphic script ...

I’ve seriously enjoyed searching for historical examples of Spencerian handwriting and learned fairly early on that it has typically been only the exemplars offered in published manuals that conform to any sort of archetype, and even then there are differences. The handwriting found in “real” letters varies a lot -- admirably and beautifully so! So, what, does one have to go back to Spencer’s own handwriting to see Spencerian in its purest and most admirable form?   

I’d hesitated to comment on this particular thread because I’m very much a tyro and don’t know anything about learning foundational hand, but the parallels to learning classical music seem relevant, so I’m hazarding a reply. Learning a musical piece “note perfect” reminds me so much of adhering as perfectly as possible to a lettering exemplar. There is most definitely a benefit to the discipline required. Yet beginner level skill both in music and calligraphy will admit but rough facsimiles. It seems to me as long as there are no wrong notes or ham-fisted lines in our exemplars, it likely won’t matter which we choose, and as beginners, as K-2 says, we are probably “a little ways from” where it would.
 
My second point echoes @TheresaS’s comments about considering the end goal. With music, I’d discovered for myself, as well as for certain other classically trained musicians, a big stumbling block when it came to playing more improvisational music. The long-practiced reliance on printed music and adherence to “the notes” was an impediment to having the freedom to explore options and take risks in making beautiful music of other sorts. Certainly, there’s a requirement for attention to technique in artistic endeavors both musical and visual, but it seems to me there are an infinite number of ways to bring something beautiful into the world. Is beauty somehow dependent upon perfect duplication? For me this means learning to replicate the “classical” Spencerian forms as best I can but being OK with it morphing at some point into my own hand … as long as it retains that aesthetic beauty.   
« Last Edit: March 18, 2023, 03:28:27 PM by Zivio »
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Offline InkyFingers

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Re: A minor issue with my exemplars for Foundational Hand
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2023, 06:24:39 PM »
@Zivio well said.  Just a reminder, you will go broad later and come full circle.   Life is like that, I see bell bottoms jeans making a comeback.

Offline Erica McPhee

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Re: A minor issue with my exemplars for Foundational Hand
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2023, 11:52:25 AM »
Found this incredible video from Calligraphy Masters. For anyone not familiar with them, they are an impressive group of very talented calligraphers who share calligraphy with the world.

Warm Regards,
Erica
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