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Tutorials => General How To's & Projects => Topic started by: Erica McPhee on January 12, 2014, 07:13:08 PM

Title: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Erica McPhee on January 12, 2014, 07:13:08 PM
Check out this great video by Paul Antonio. I'm surprised he is not using an oblique holder (perhaps why he has to turn his paper more and gets the splat at the end?). But in any event, I would watch any video by Paul as he is so incredibly charming. Oh, and masterful at calligraphy, too! Thankfully, this is also a great subject matter!  ;D  This site has many more fabulous calligraphy videos, too.

 How to Write Copperplate by Paul Antonio (http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-write-copperplate-calligraphy#playlist-urlname=how-to-write-copperplate-calligraphy)
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video
Post by: Estefa on January 14, 2014, 04:24:26 AM
February 11 2016: Please take everything I write here regarding Paul Antonio and his reasons to use an oblique or straight holder with a grain of salt – this thread dates from January 2014 and I just assumed he uses a straight one for Copperplate because most European calligraphers do so (or did – as I said, 2014 – a lot has happended also here regarding writing of pointed pen styles …). What I want to say, I had no idea of his true reasons, as he explains later in videos and now Periscopes etc. :).

Thanks for sharing this, Erica! He truly has a unique personal style of Copperplate that still stays classic, I think.

I'm surprised he is not using an oblique holder (perhaps why he has to turn his paper more and gets the splat at the end?).

I guess that's because he's English ;)

No, joke aside, a lot of European calligraphers write Copperplate with a straight holder as it is the traditional way to write it … some even seem to think the use of an oblique holder to be some kind of trickery or something for beginners before they can get it right.

About the splats at the end, I think he did this intentionally to demonstrate what happens if one is not careful in the upstrokes? Also he is using a L. Principal which is one of the sharpest nibs ever (but I don't have to tell you, haha!!).

Here's a feature about him that's quite interesting too:

http://www.theguardian.com/money/audioslideshow/2010/feb/18/work-and-careers

Regarding Copperplate, I noticed that a different weight seems also to be a difference between American an European versions of this hand (generally speaking of course) – Europeans tend to write it less bold. Maybe that has to do with the Engrosser's or Engraver's Hand which is wholly American, as far as I see, and is much bolder than the historical Roundhands for example in the Universal Penman?

Check out Swiss calligrapher Andreas Schenk writing Copperplate miniscules:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsL6dp4BLNE
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video
Post by: FrenchBlue Joy on January 14, 2014, 02:11:17 PM
It's true that the oblique holder is an American invention.  IAMPETH has an article from the Penman's Art Journal someplace in the archives from waaaay back where some old writing masters are arguing about whether it makes things too easy!  Exactly.  How funny. 

Paul Antonio is getting the Spencerian facts a little bit wrong in this video.  He gives Spencer's year of death (1860) as the year the writing system was developed... but Spencer was developing this hand from about 1815.  I'm totally pro-oblique holder, because of the simple fact that the tines spread more evenly when writing on a slant-- no matter how much you turn your paper!  Edges are less raggedy.  It's an innovation that made slanted writing easier and quicker.   

BTW, I think Schin Loong made a video about this for youtube!  She demonstrating using a straight penholder and an oblique. 

I remember seeing another video of Paul Antonio talking about why he doesn't use an oblique, but I can't remember now what he felt the advantage of straight penholders to be...  I think it had something to do with flourishing.  In fact, I know that some calligraphers who write with oblique nibs still do choose to change to a straight holder when doing off-hand flourishing because there are some kinds of strokes that are easier to make with a straight holder... 

Title: Re: Paul Antonio video
Post by: Erica McPhee on January 14, 2014, 05:28:48 PM
Fascinating on all fronts! I am not much of a historian when it comes to calligraphy. I just dig in. But I certainly appreciate learning it and you both sharing it! Anything which is helpful in my book. Funny on the oblique holder v. straight holder topic. Seems we can find anything to disagree on. I try not to ever take myself too seriously and I know there are many calligraphers who are very serious business. It's all just fascinating to me! Whatever works I say!  ;D
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video
Post by: Estefa on January 15, 2014, 04:24:23 AM
It's true that the oblique holder is an American invention.  IAMPETH has an article from the Penman's Art Journal someplace in the archives from waaaay back where some old writing masters are arguing about whether it makes things too easy!  Exactly.  How funny. 

Hi Joy, I read that too some time ago – fascinating!

I'm totally pro-oblique holder, because of the simple fact that the tines spread more evenly when writing on a slant-- no matter how much you turn your paper!  Edges are less raggedy.  It's an innovation that made slanted writing easier and quicker.   

I hope you did not understand me wrong here … I do love oblique pen holders very much, I think they are great - I even write German Kurrent with it (not that I am very good at it), that is an old script style that was also originally written with a straight holder and has a similar slant like Copperplate. I just wanted to make a guess about the fact that Paul Antonio doesn't use one, is all ;)

I assume it has to do also with tradition, very simply. As calligraphy per se is maybe not the most revolutionary craft … I hope it is understandable what I want to say. For me in the end what counts is how the script looks, not how it was written (although that is interesting of course!)

Whatever works I say!  ;D

Yes to that, Erica!!
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video
Post by: FrenchBlue Joy on January 15, 2014, 07:48:29 AM
No Estefa, I didn't misunderstand you about anything.  This is a conversation about the history of calligraphy and the advent of the oblique, and the different traditions in Europe and the States. 

In the part of the message where you quote me, I'm simply giving my personal opinion on the historical debate of for/against the oblique holder!   :)

FWIW, I don't think Paul Antonio intentionally makes his nib catch the paper-- I think it just happened.  He's super skilled, but sh** happens, even to the masters!  ;) 

Brian Walker is the IAMPETH master penman from England who worked with the manufacturer to bring out the EF Principal nib that Paul Antonio is writing with in this video.  It's so true what you said...  it's an incredibly sharp nib.  I'm part of Mr. Walker's study group for Spencerian, and I'm trying my best with his nib, but it is challenging!  He's English, but he writes with an oblique holder. 
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video
Post by: Estefa on January 16, 2014, 04:20:20 AM
Thank you very much for your answer, Joy! I stumbled across the L. Principal also some time ago when searching the IAMPETH site – it's definitely nothing for me (being a beginner in Spencerian). Maybe later!

It would be interesting to know why Paul Antonio thinks a straight holder is better suited for flourishing though …
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video
Post by: FrenchBlue Joy on January 16, 2014, 04:31:13 AM
I think because you have to turn your hand to a hook position to "throw" strokes away from your body, when you are off-hand flourishing.  When doing things like bird flourishing. 

For the script, Paul Antonio thinks it's better to just turn the paper at a really extreme angle away from the body, and to turn the wrist and get used to writing that way, rather than to switch back and forth between an oblique and a straight penholder. 

(By the way, there is a left-handed script calligrapher named John DeCollibus who uses a right-handers' oblique holder, and practically writes upside-down, "throwing" all the strokes away from his body in the most amazing way.  I think I'll find the video and post it somewhere else for the lefties to see!)

Anyway, about Mr Antonio--  There's quite a long video on Vimeo of him explaining all the ways he picks up, turns, and twists his hands around while writing Copperplate with a straight holder, in order to put the shaded stroke in places where you can't really do it with an oblique pen.  His main point is that oblique pens really make it difficult to shade anything but the down strokes.  It's usually the downstrokes which do have shade, so usually this isn't a problem, but for some versions of the capital T and Q from the Universal Penman, the heaviest strokes are in unusual places.  They were made by twisting the wrist or turning the paper. 
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video
Post by: Perfectsettings on January 16, 2014, 10:54:11 AM
I saw this video some months ago!  I thought then that he was pretty darn charming. 
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video
Post by: Erica McPhee on January 16, 2014, 02:33:27 PM
  I thought then that he was pretty darn charming.

Glad I'm not the only one.  ;) I would watch him doing a demonstration on how to cook spaghetti ... or take out the trash .... or change the cat litter box. I'm 100% certain they would all sound just as lovely. As long as he throws in one of those smiles somewhere!  :D

Sorry, sorry -- back on topic!

I haven't seen that video Joy. I will have to check it out. I think sometimes we get hung up right or wrong holder, or method. However, what Alan Ariail says is true, "From my POV, it makes no difference if lettering is made with a stick, spray can, piece of chalk, brush, marker, fountain pen, crayon or a Wacom pen. It takes more than a writing instrument to make lettering as heart, soul and personality are the real ingredients."

With that said, I also believe it is important if you are going to teach, demonstrate, or otherwise share learning calligraphy to the masses, try to use the easiest method. In other words, calligraphy is hard enough to learn without taking the most difficult route. So if using an oblique holder allows someone to learn more easily (which I think it does), then start as you mean to go on. If you can form letters with an oblique without twisting your wrist or the paper all over the place, then why not do it?!
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video
Post by: FrenchBlue Joy on January 16, 2014, 02:54:15 PM
Totally. I'm not advocating for his method, only describing it.  ;) 
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video
Post by: Erica McPhee on January 16, 2014, 03:08:06 PM
Totally. I'm not advocating for his method, only describing it.  ;)

I know! I can't advocate or critique it either as I haven't seen the video. I'm just talking generally with your description as a jumping off point.

I see a lot of the "beginner calligraphy kits" with straight holders and I do feel this is steering beginners in the wrong direction. Yup, I said it.  :)
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video
Post by: FrenchBlue Joy on January 16, 2014, 04:17:47 PM
I agree with you-- it's sooo hard to get the times to open evenly with a straight holder. Why make life harder?  You know, in the UK there's much more concentration on broad pen than pointed (at least on terms of what's up on the Internet). Maybe pointed pen scripts would be more popular there if obliques were more common. 
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video
Post by: Estefa on January 21, 2014, 05:33:19 AM
Hi Joy and Erica, wow, thanks for all the info!

Yes, I  have seen this straight holder-away-from-the-body position you describe in old books … On the other hand I also saw the example with John DeCollibus (stunning ;)) - and Barabara Calzolari does her bird-and-feather flourishing also with an oblique holder.

Do you know the earlier artwork with off-hand flourishing like from van den Velde or here from Balderick van den Horick from around 1630:

http://bibliodyssey.blogspot.de/2009/03/quill-and-flourish.html

?

These dutch penmen for sure were flourishing with a straight, very pointed, but still broad edged quill. So my impression is that there is not THE perfect tool for one thing.

And all these beautiful artworks, from past or present, are all the more reason for me to believe that the motivation to use or not to use an oblique holder is more a question of personal taste and / or tradition then that there are really "rational" reasons. In the sense that what a writing person gains from the one holder she loses when using the other (ease of shading downstrokes vs. other shaded strokes), and so it comes down to just what somehow appeals more to someone, in her / his personal style or workflow.

I feel what I want to say is a bit complicated and so I hope it is not totally obscure ;)

Anyway, I will look for the other video - sound interesting! (What I find somehow frustrating with these videos is that they often don't really focus on the actual writing … I am aware that it is not easy to film this though.)

Erica, you anticipated some of the things I wanted to say ;) - I like that quote from Alan Ariail very much!

I also think that an oblique holder makes learning scripts like Spencerian or Copperplate, easIER, like you said, Joy - it is hard enough to get all the rest right.

For me it was a revelation when I tried an elbow nib for the first time! I had tried around before with a straight holder (and nib), and of course the problems to get started are even bigger.

Erica, I think in Europe many, many people simply don't know that something like the oblique holder exists. I think there is only the simple plastic Speedball to buy here. I don't know about these starter ses, but maybe it has also to do with profit …? I mean, even the most inexpensive oblique holder costs more than a simple straight one.

Also a lot of modern / contemporary calligraphy I see on the internet is quite upright, so maybe ok-ish to make with a straight holder. I use one simple pointed pen script that I developed out of my handwriting (before I started with formal scripts) that I still like to write with a straight holder because it is not so slanted, + in this case I like the irregular lines.

As you can see, I very much like to dive in the history of something I am trying to learn … so what I also found interesting is what Joy said about England and the broad edge tradition. It is similar in Germany. The books by Edward Johnston (who was not overly fond of pointed pen scripts) were translated to German in the early 20th century and are still a heavy influence, as far as I can tell. In my german calligraphy books pointed pen scripts are more treated like "Oh yes, there are pointed pen scripts, but they are difficult to learn and overly ornate!" (I exaggerate maybe a little. Great books otherwise!).

But I am totally with you - I am also absolutely pro oblique holder. I just find the history of the use of different writing instruments fascinating and like to learn more. What I find a bit sad is that this seems to get a bit ideological with some … I mean nobody is forced to use an oblique holder …
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video
Post by: FrenchBlue Joy on January 21, 2014, 06:09:07 AM
I just find the history of the use of different writing instruments fascinating and like to learn more. What I find a bit sad is that this seems to get a bit ideological with some … I mean nobody is forced to use an oblique holder …

Me too!  I really do find all of the history soooo interesting, but I can't see why it could be ideological.  But many people imbue tradition with a *lot* of meaning and significance.  Personally I like it, and I do think there's no substitute for sweat and elbow grease... but I'm also happy to check out innovations when they arise. 

We didn't mention it in this conversation, but of course "copperplate" and roundhand really were developed for engraving-- that was the printing method-- which had a right-handed person writing with a straight tool, *backwards* from right to left.  The 55° slant was very natural, going in that direction.  Which is why I think the oblique is such a genius invention-- it sort of re-creates the appropriate angle when writing left-to-right!  It's funny how long it took for someone to invent it!   ;D
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video
Post by: Estefa on January 21, 2014, 05:04:48 PM
Hi Joy, I have heard about that theory and honestly I don't find it very convincing. It sounds overly complicated. The flourishes for sure needed some paper-turning (though also less than with a pointed pen) and were sometimes made "backwards" (away from the body), or from right to left. But the actual writing itself? Why would they do that, writing backwards etc.? Engraving was the method of reproduction for the writing master's work, not the end in itself. Imho.

I just read "The Golden Thread" by calligrapher and design professor Ewan Clayton, it is a story of writing in western culture. He devotes a whole chapter to the evolution of Roundhand and describes with a lot of historical sources how it developed from the Italic hands via the Dutch writing masters then in England to the English Roundhand. He describes (and shows in a historical picture) how the quill must be cut to make the typical elegant strokes and how these end naturally with a square foot (which when done with a flexible pointed pen must be generally retouched). If you are interested, I could look this up in more detail.

Also I have one of Bickham's smaller books here ("Penmanship made easy (Young Clerks Assistant)") where he describes also in detail how to cut the quill, how to hold it and so on. Nowhere he states something about that the letters should be written / drawn backwards or anything. This was a business script, after all – meant to be written with reasonable speed in an office!
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video
Post by: Erica McPhee on January 21, 2014, 08:01:12 PM
Fascinating discussion Stefanie! And Joy! I enjoy reading about the history but take it less to heart when in practice. Like I have said elsewhere, there are those who are very serious about their calligraphy ... I'm not one of those people. Serious in the sense it is very important to me and I would like to teach people in an earnest manner, yes. But not serious, in the sense, you could hand me a tool and I would work with it and not get too existential about it.

I love seeing the old flourishing. I often wondered why other animals weren't featured along with the birds and deer. My favorite is the unicorns!

However, I was referring to flourishing while doing calligraphy, not off-hand flourishing and I do think it is important to make that distinction.

While the old masters were certainly that, I don't think anyone would argue we should be giving beginners quills to begin their journey. I think the oblique holder v. straight holder argument is no different. But again, whatever works for the person doing the lettering.

Essentially, I was referring to the beginner calligraphy kits being sold all over America. And it is my thought those assembling the kits include a straight holder because they don't have formal training in pointed pen calligraphy. I could be 100% wrong about that. But it seems to me the majority of artists I see doing modern calligraphy are the ones using a straight holder. And of the many Copperplate or Spencerian calligraphers I know - almost all use an oblique holder (unless left handed).  I can think of only one or two exceptions. I have never taken a pointed pen class where the instructor recommended or used a straight holder. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, I just haven't encountered it. And I really don't think the modern calligraphy alphabet slant has anything to do with it.

Just a glance at the top American books on learning copperplate will support the use of an oblique holder. Mastering Copperplate by Eleanor Winters, The Technique of Copperplate Calligraphy by Gordon Turner, The Zanerian Manual of Alphabets and Engrossing, Calligraphy in 24 hours by Veiko Kespersaks (strange title!) - they all recommend an oblique holder or flanged nib. The Ames Compendium doesn't make mention but also teaches a right awkward pen grip as well.

The only text I saw teaching copperplate with a straight holder was Mastering the Art of Calligraphy - a british book and I'm sorry to bluntly say the copperplate exemplar is rough with rough edges along the thicks - a sure sign of bad pen angle. (However, this is a fantastic book with several other very well done calligraphy hands. I recommend it for the other exemplars and projects.)

Anyway, does this mean an oblique holder is the right way and a straight holder is wrong. Absolutely not. Does it mean gorgeous work can't come from a straight holder. Obviously not. It just means, experience seems to demonstrate an oblique holder is an easier method to learning and executing pointed pen calligraphy, IMHO.   :)

Title: Re: Paul Antonio video
Post by: Erica McPhee on January 21, 2014, 08:17:50 PM
Oh, and I wanted to add, engraving was actually the sole intent, not a reproduction method of the master's hand calligraphy. From what I understand, it is actually the other way around. Copperplate actually derives its name from the copper plate printing process.

However, the engravers did copy handwriting styles and then added flourishes. So it started off as handwriting with a quill or pen and then the engravers took it from there. It was used in printing legal documents because it was hard to forge (falsely copy). Some of the more extravagant flourishing done with the engraving tool is near impossible to be reproduced using a pointed pen. The Germans took it to the highest level of perfection!

From what I have read Engraver's always had to work in reverse (because it is a print of a mirror image). So sometimes you can see texts where the letters are accidently reversed.
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Erica McPhee on January 21, 2014, 08:30:36 PM
Sorry, here I am saying I don't pay much attention to the history and then I go on and on...

Anyway, I wanted to add... Spencerian started off as business hand writing and then with the invention of the oblique pen holder, evolved into Ornamental Script. Business Script came after Spencerian and was done with a straight holder.

Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Erica McPhee on January 22, 2014, 12:43:44 AM
I went back and studied some of that ornamental work. Studying some of the cadells and flourishes, I just can't fathom someone was able to create those with one pen stroke! And the balance of even flourishing on both left and right. It is truly astonishing.

Does anyone know if there are any master penmen/women today that can achieve this type of flourishing?
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: FrenchBlue Joy on January 22, 2014, 01:36:50 AM
Ah!   I'm going off to work right now, and just seeing all of this interesting conversation being carried forward!  I don't have time to say much right now, only that this time, there really was a misunderstanding about what I meant with the backwards writing.  I just meant that engraving was written backwards. It was engraved backwards on a plate.  Simply that when it came to reproducing the quillwork, the engraver would've had an easy time of it with a straight tool (Here I'm talking about the engraving tool, not the quill), not needing to turn or twist the plate in any direction, or his wrist either.  In no way do I mean that the calligraphers were writing backwards.  ;D. LOL.

http://www.bromptonprint.co.uk/page8.htm
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video
Post by: FrenchBlue Joy on January 22, 2014, 01:45:32 AM
From what I understand, it is actually the other way around. Copperplate actually derives its name from the copper plate printing process.

Yes, and roundhand and copperplate are used almost interchangeably, but they aren't exactly the same thing.   The script style known as copperplate, really is a little more oblique, and a little more jaunty than roundhand, as it is shown in Bickham's "The Universal Penman".
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Estefa on January 22, 2014, 04:17:00 AM
Hi Erica, and Joy, thanks for this ongoing very interesting discussion! Which turned in several discussions about some quite different things, and I will try not to confuse them. I would love to write more now but I also need to get to work …

Just in short:

1) I totally agree with that the oblique holder is a fantastic tool to write Copperplate and similar hands! Regardless of how it might have been written in the past.

2) Flourishing, off-hand and with calligraphy - big difference, agreed! Would maybe be worthy of a single thread ;)

3) Beginner calligraphy kits. Can't say much about that, sounds convincing what you write, Erica!

4) Still don't buy though the "Engraver's invented Copperplate Calligraphy" theory. Copperplate engraving was used years before "The Universal Penman" - I have shown one example above, could look up more … and it was used for very different hands like various Kurrent Hands, Italic (Humanistische Kursive, as we call it here, or Cancellaresca in Italy), Gothic hands etc..

Another great example is the famous "Spieghel der Schryfkonste" by Van de Velde:

http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/search-the-collections/358328?rpp=20&pg=1&ao=on&ft=velde&pos=10

Of course in the event of reproducing the quill pen strokes they were certainly a bit "optimized" like we smooth out a line in Photoshop, but the original writing was for sure fast and done with a quill.

I am also certain that the original off-hand flourishing was done with a quill and also optimised by the engraver, not only added. I could be wrong about this, but there is a lot of historical evidence to suggest that! The name Copperplate for this hand is imho a quite late one and even not universally used. In Germany we call it "Englische Schreibschrift" (English Handwriting) or even "Anglaise" like in France. Nothing here refers to the engraving process.

I really don't have time now to go on about this … sorry. Don't get me wrong, I don't claim universal truth about this, just am convinced that the arguments supporting my conviction about this are sound.

6) Yes, this ornamental work is astonishing … don't know anybody who does this today. I guess what we see today from the past is the best of the best, and these writing masters did not much else, what I mean they were full-time scribes probably starting from a very young age. Also these books were advertising!! So they wanted to show the best they could provide, competition must have been high.

7) Joy, I am really glad that was a misunderstanding ;)

Number eight (get strange smiley with the number)) But again, about the various styles in the "Universal penman" - among them Round, Round-Text, Italian etc., none of them was called Copperplate. Or did you mean that the script in the "Penman" isn't called Copperplate? I am again not sure if I understood that right.

So, I need to get to work now!
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: FrenchBlue Joy on January 22, 2014, 08:17:38 AM

4) Still don't buy though the "Engraver's invented Copperplate Calligraphy" theory. Copperplate engraving was used years before "The Universal Penman" - I have shown one example above, could look up more … and it was used for very different hands like various Kurrent Hands, Italic (Humanistische Kursive, as we call it here, or Cancellaresca in Italy), Gothic hands etc..

Another great example is the famous "Spieghel der Schryfkonste" by Van de Velde:

http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/search-the-collections/358328?rpp=20&pg=1&ao=on&ft=velde&pos=10

Of course in the event of reproducing the quill pen strokes they were certainly a bit "optimized" like we smooth out a line in Photoshop, but the original writing was for sure fast and done with a quill.

Voilà here, I think, is the misunderstanding still going...  I don't think anybody is saying that engravers invented "copperplate".  Of course the reproduction of engraving Roundhand onto a copper plate and then printing, pre-dates the term "copperplate calligraphy". 

It makes more sense to see how the terms get muddled when we take for granted that we're talking about all pointed pen styles!  In fact English Roundhand is not a pointed pen style at all-- it was written with a thin and flexible, but squared-off quill. 

The look of the script changed and evolved over many many years, especially also when pointed tips began to be used.  The term "Copperplate script" used to refer to the calligraphy itself (and not simply the reproduction method) was not used until the 1930s!! By then it appeared in a compendium called "The English Writing-Masters and Their Copy-Books 1570-1800".  So already it has to be clear-- there is a lot of change an evolution which happened during those years. 

Over time the look of the script changed quite a lot.    Because of the smoothing "photoshop" effects that were possible through the engraving process (like you mentioned, Estefa), and the adoption of pointed pens, and many other style changes along the way, there actually developed a style of script which tried to emulate those perfect engravings.  The script was definitely based on English Roundhand, but featured a more elliptical oval work with enough difference in terms of slant and high ligatures (which kind of spring up quickly and more steeply) , that these styles began to be called "Engraver's Script" and "Engrosser's Script", both also called "Copperplate Script".

Unlike Roundhand, they were definitely not a handwriting style, written swiftly.  They are formed very slowly and carefully.  The progenitor hand for Engrosser's, Engraver's, and Copperplate script IS Roundhand, which confusingly is also called "Copperplate"...  though it wasn't called that at all in its own day.  This gets confusing, right?  This is why sometimes the term "copperplate calligraphy" is avoided altogether.  It is simply easier to speak about English Roundhand and Engrosser's or Engraver's scripts to be different things completely.  Or just accept that they can both be called Copperplate, but it will make conversations like this one a bit muddled! 


Hopefully it's clear that when people say "Copperplate Script", they are not always talking about the same thing!  This history of this script begins with English Roundhand --> Gets engraved onto "Copper Plates" --> Begins to inspire calligraphers by the perfection of the engraving process --> Influences changes to the script as its written on the paper --> Brings about an innovation in the style and the type of quill point --> Begins to be called "Copperplate Script" in its own right.  Equally called Engraver's and Engrosser's Script. 

And again, there's another video of Paul Antonio talking about these details somewhere on Vimeo.  He explains it all from the Historical perspective as well, and he makes sure to be precise about just what an imprecise term "copperplate script" is, though he does use it himself (to talk about Roundhand).  And he does write Roundhand with a squared-off quill sometimes, but otherwise he modifies the style and writes with a pointed pen.  So everything is always being adapted!   

Whew...  But oh my gosh, it is all so interesting. 

Oh, one more thing-- here are two examples of "Copperplate" lettering-- the first is English Roundhand (here written with the squared-off tip), and the second is Engrosser's Script (written with a pointed pen). 

What is taught these days as Copperplate usually more closely resembles Engrosser's than Roundhand, because of the way the ligatures sit on the baseline.  Roundhand is, effectively, more "round".  The spacing between the letters is different.  Engrosser's script looks like it's sucking in its belly, by contrast!  And incidentally, this style is more what leads into Spencerian and other rapid business scripts, later, which favor the steep ligatures.

I really appreciate your attention to details, Estefa!  It's so cool to be able to geek-out about this technical, historical stuff.  :D

Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Erica McPhee on January 22, 2014, 11:10:06 AM
You have both very eloquently explained what I was trying to say in very layman terms.

Stefanie what you say here: "Still don't buy though the "Engraver's invented Copperplate Calligraphy" theory. Copperplate engraving was used years before "The Universal Penman" - I have shown one example above, could look up more … and it was used for very different hands like various Kurrent Hands, Italic (Humanistische Kursive, as we call it here, or Cancellaresca in Italy), Gothic hands etc."

is exactly what I am saying (although I expressed it rather poorly). The Engravers didn't invent copperplate calligraphy. They were engraving with various hands as both you and Joy mention. But it is because of their engravings on copper plates that it came to generalized as "Copperplate."

Joy, this says it in a nutshell: " This history of this script begins with English Roundhand --> Gets engraved onto "Copper Plates" --> Begins to inspire calligraphers by the perfection of the engraving process --> Influences changes to the script as its written on the paper --> Brings about an innovation in the style and the type of quill point --> Begins to be called "Copperplate Script" in its own right. "

However, you can see why I don't get involved in the historical issues of calligraphy. While I find it fascinating, I don't have the finesse to be offended by the use of the term Copperplate to generally describe Engrosser's Script, Engraver's Script, or Roundhand. The distinction in modern time and to the masses is confusing and drives a divide. Two things I try to avoid at all costs.
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: FrenchBlue Joy on January 22, 2014, 12:24:29 PM

However, you can see why I don't get involved in the historical issues of calligraphy. While I find it fascinating, I don't have the finesse to be offended by the use of the term Copperplate to generally describe Engrosser's Script, Engraver's Script, or Roundhand. The distinction in modern time and to the masses is confusing and drives a divide. Two things I try to avoid at all costs.

:)  I don't think much finesse is required to be defensive and offended about this kind of stuff!  Rather the opposite.  You make a very good point--  a divide is quite easy to create, if it's not clear how terms are being used.  Insofar as terminology is clear, the history can be really interesting and edifying.  It's important to look at history as a continuum, though.  Nothing is black and white, East and West, Old World and New World.  The flow of ideas and technique and inspiration does not run in only one direction. 
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Erica McPhee on January 22, 2014, 12:37:24 PM
Good points as always Joy! I used the wrong word. Perhaps "sophistication" would be a better choice!  :D
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video
Post by: Estefa on January 23, 2014, 05:01:48 AM
I am really sorry, it seems I misread this a bit, again - most of what I wrote in my last post was about this one phrase from you, Erica:

Oh, and I wanted to add, engraving was actually the sole intent, not a reproduction method of the master's hand calligraphy. From what I understand, it is actually the other way around. Copperplate actually derives its name from the copper plate printing process.

I thought you were refering to the "Copperplate myth", as explained here under "Contemporary resurgence".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_calligraphy

Again, sorry. It seems we all more or less agree here about the story of our beloved script ;). You both clarified a lot of points that I only touched on the surface.

And yes, I am aware that Engrosser's / Engraver's is really a variant of pointed pen style (to call it that carefully …) that is indeed more drawn than written (and directly related to engraved exemplars). I guess what most of us today do (or learn) is a mixture, stylistically. I also think these terms / labels are quite confusing, also the "Copperplate" in Eleanor Winter's book for example is different from that in other theaching material, and so on … and many of them claim to possess the "right" Copperplate look – hmm. Maybe the writing really is much more important than the labels!

I wholeheartedly agree that it is not worth to really "fight" about all this! Especially on the internet, where you can't answer at once, can't see the faces of the people you are having a conversation with – I have seen discussions take a real nasty term in some forums, which is why up until now I nearly never posted in any. I think this can become unnecessarily hurtful. Which is why I like this forum so much – it resonates with a friendly, welcoming key tone (can you say that? It is a german expression maybe).

I just downloaded some time ago from Iampeth "The Madarasz Book":

http://www.iampeth.com/books/madarasz_book/madarasz_page69.html

Here Mr. Madarasz explains in the last few pages how he writes his stunning, dramatic version of roundhand (with speed! Nothing slow here). He doesn't seem to be a big fan of Engraver's although I think his style very much looks like it!! And it's really funny to read – but I guess you know it already. What I also find so strange and amusing is that what we think of today as a quite romatic, feminine style which to a huge extent is used for weddings was supposed to be the ideal script for INSURANCE POLICIES! (I know that especially Mr. Madarasz style is not very "romantic" – I am speaking here again more generally of Copperplate-ish pointed pen styles ;))
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Erica McPhee on January 23, 2014, 08:50:07 AM
I *loathe* Wikipedia. (Just FYI).  ;D

Sorry, off topic! I love your posts, Stefanie. So full of information. And how ironic is that about the calligraphy for insurance policies we now use for wedding invitations!

I remember "watching" some rather serious penmen go round and round about the history of calligraphy, script variants, etc. with some really mean comments thrown in along the way. Just a turn off to me. I love lettering and to me, it soured the experience.

So we all agree! It's all good!  ;D
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Estefa on January 23, 2014, 09:25:44 AM
I *loathe* Wikipedia. (Just FYI).  ;D

Ups – couldn't know that – and I know that it is not a totally reliable source … just this time I thought it sort of summed up nicely what I had read elsewhere ;)

Sorry, off topic! I love your posts, Stefanie. So full of information. And how ironic is that about the calligraphy for insurance policies we now use for wedding invitations!

Thank you!! I love yours too. I admire that you have such an easy approach to calligraphy (I mean that in a positive way). I tend to read too much (who would have guessed that) about what I do, generally, and so sometimes forget to really work on my lettering, and it can be hindering to see too much, or to have too much theoretical ballast.

I remember "watching" some rather serious penmen go round and round about the history of calligraphy, script variants, etc. with some really mean comments thrown in along the way. Just a turn off to me. I love lettering and to me, it soured the experience.

I know what you mean - that sounds similar to the debate I read. Totally not pleasent.

So we all agree! It's all good!  ;D

;)
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: FrenchBlue Joy on January 23, 2014, 05:03:31 PM
 :)

I've never participated in forums, or experienced a crunchy moment watching a calligraphy debate-- so ignorance is bliss, I guess! I figured we were all just saying the same thing, but when one thing would be made reference to, it might be (totally and hilariously) misunderstood and then it took a lot of explaining to make that clear!  But I knew we'd get there, because seriously, there was no disagreement happening as far as I could see!

This is just backstory-- just a web of back-and-forth influence which has shaped a living, breathing tradition.  Like language, always evolving-- and not in a linear fashion!   Which is certainly nothing to get tetchy about or take personally.  The major wrench in the thing is just what's meant when people say "Copperplate"!  I took it for granted in the conversation that it was generally known, that Copperplate is a "new name", first referenced only in the 20th century, and that Roundhand has offshoots in other more recent hands that have been called "copperplate" ever since the advent of the name... (Thanks, Dr. Joe) ;)

Personally, I've learned everything from the amazing people writing and educating for IAMPETH and I don't think there's a nicer, more knowledgable bunch of people anywhere!  I don't think ANYONE there has a reputation for being difficult or taciturn about stuff like this.  I'm of the impression that calligraphers are lovely, warm and the BEST kind of geeks, even when splitting hairs or talking about dry old history!  So yeah, ignorance is bliss--  I've never seen anybody get rude about anything.  The only stroppy stuff I've seen is from ooold Penman's Journal archives from the 1800s-- that must have been a crabby time!  LOL.  Anyway--back to the lovely, warm, family vibe that you notice, Estefa.  I second that.  AND, here's an idea-- we should try to lure Heather Held onto this board-- she's the current President of IAMPETH, and an absolute angel! 

Thanks again Erica for all you do here.   You're a peach!
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Brad franklin on February 20, 2014, 12:28:47 AM
I love Paul Antonio's work. In fact one of my favorites. He is very kind and will always give you advice
If you ask. As far as the oblique vs straight holder i guess there will always be a debate. I ask iampeth and was told "I should be using an oblique holder for all pointed pen, script,Spencerian, Ornamental, etc. You should use a straight holder for business penmanship and for flourishing". So that is what I have been doing.
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Ken Fraser on April 29, 2014, 03:21:26 AM
As a professional calligrapher, I always use the title "Copperplate" for this style of lettering, for a purely practical reason.
When dealing with clients, if I refer to "English Roundhand" nobody knows what I'm talking about. Whereas it's surprising how many people understand the general look of "Copperplate" from the name.

Ken
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: AndyT on April 29, 2014, 04:56:18 AM
As a professional calligrapher, I always use the title "Copperplate" for this style of lettering, for a purely practical reason.
When dealing with clients, if I refer to "English Roundhand" nobody knows what I'm talking about. Whereas it's surprising how many people understand the general look of "Copperplate" from the name.

Very sensible, Ken.

Coming back to oblique holders in Europe for a moment, the first known patent was registered in London in 1831, so why they never really caught on here is something of a mystery.  Included in that patent were some cranked nibs, and they have been around here for quite a while (I probably have a few old ones somewhere), so it's not as if the advantages were unknown.  To the best of my knowledge the black Speedball is still the only readily available oblique holder in the UK at least, alas.
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Ken Fraser on April 29, 2014, 07:18:36 AM
To the best of my knowledge the black Speedball is still the only readily available oblique holder in the UK at least, alas.

Unfortunately, this is correct.

I got my oblique pens from the USA. Postage is quick and the extra expense is worth it.

Ken
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: AndyT on April 29, 2014, 07:38:42 AM
I got my oblique pens from the USA. Postage is quick and the extra expense is worth it.

I've just got my first (from Brian) and agree entirely.  All the same, you'd think that at least one of the UK suppliers would dip their toe in the water and try offering the coloured Speedballs with the brass flange, say, just to see if there's a market for them.  Going by my small circle of admittedly geeky acquaintances, they'd sell like hot cakes.
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Ken Fraser on April 29, 2014, 08:11:43 AM
I know that it's a silly, perverse attitude, but doesn't it feel good when you finally acquire something that's been difficult to get? It just seems more valuable, somehow!  :D

Aren't Brian Smith's holders wonderful? I'm really pleased to have my lettering as his site masthead. To be associated with high quality items, is always good.

Ken
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: AndyT on April 29, 2014, 08:48:24 AM
Oh, I didn't realise that, Ken!  Having just taken a look, the penny should have dropped really ... something about the way you do the flourishes.

Brian's holders are indeed wonderful; mine certainly is.  After talking with him there's clearly a lot more to be considered than meets the eye, especially with regard to getting the balance right.  That said, if a hobbyist woodturner in the UK fancied a change from kit fountain pens or lace bobbins and was prepared invest time in solving all the various problems, they might find themselves with a nice little sideline on their hands.
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Brad franklin on April 29, 2014, 06:50:23 PM
Just to note: Paul Antonio does use an oblique holder, but only for Spencerian Script not for copperplate. He says he knows that if an oblique is in his hand he knows he is going to write Spencerian and if a straight holder is in his hands he is doing copperplate. The ones he uses are custom made, but he seems to have at least one of everything.
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Scarlet Blue on May 04, 2014, 07:12:03 AM
I use a straight nib holder because I am lazy... i.e. it's easier to dunk a straight holder into a bottle of ink, so I don't have to decant :-) I also feel less removed from the paper with a straight holder... I thought I was bonkers feeling this until I read that Rachel Yallop uses a straight holder for this reason.
I did originally use an oblique nib holder but it didn't really help me because even for my normal handwriting I have my paper at a funny angle... plus the nib holders I now use take all my broad edged nibs and my pointed nibs. I am practical if nothing else!
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Estefa on May 04, 2014, 07:17:04 AM
Just to note: Paul Antonio does use an oblique holder, but only for Spencerian Script not for copperplate. He says he knows that if an oblique is in his hand he knows he is going to write Spencerian and if a straight holder is in his hands he is doing copperplate. The ones he uses are custom made, but he seems to have at least one of everything.

Hi Brad, interesting! In my original answer I was only referring to the video that was posted in the beginning of the thread ;D. But that sounds quite sensible – not that I want compare myself to him, but I feel there's really is some confusion when I try to switch from Copperplate to Spencerian. For my informal chicken scratch frestyle lettering I use a pointed nib in astraight holder. So I know I can go crazy :D!
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Estefa on May 04, 2014, 07:22:04 AM
As a professional calligrapher, I always use the title "Copperplate" for this style of lettering, for a purely practical reason.
When dealing with clients, if I refer to "English Roundhand" nobody knows what I'm talking about. Whereas it's surprising how many people understand the general look of "Copperplate" from the name.

Ken

Hi Ken, I can imagine that!! I just like that in a forum like this we can go as nerdy as we like. I have had clients (as a graphic designer) who weren't fully aware that there are typefaces with serifs and typefaces without. So calligraphy surely would only be "something handwriting-ish"!

The term "Copperplate" is in Germany more associated with the quite gruesome font with the same name (it's not even a script font). Here we call the style "Englische Handschrift" – "English Handwriting", or calligraphers call it "Anglaise". Lots of words ;)!
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Faeleia on May 19, 2014, 04:20:46 AM
I'm using straight holders, only because the oblique is incredibly hard to get in shops here in Singapore.. I could order them online, but I'm still trying to see if I can work around not having an oblique holder with the mindset of 'Let me practice more and use what I have and be absolutely bloody certain this is what I truly want to do for a long time' before investing and expanding my collection. I also have a slight hoarder impulse with new hobbies, so this time it's taking me effort to hold back.

Currently, I use a straight holder and the ever hardy Nikko G. I've used it till the tips have worn down in its sharpness, but seeing scribes like Paul Antonio use a straight gives me a glimmer of hope that proper Copperplate CAN be done. My problem now is mainly consistency and those flourishes. The lines I have often go askew and catch like his, but I'm a bit reluctant to take time off the foundational stuff like practising basic letters to practice flourishes. Oh, all in time.  :)
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video
Post by: Ken Fraser on May 19, 2014, 08:56:17 AM

........ roundhand and copperplate are used almost interchangeably, but they aren't exactly the same thing.   The script style known as copperplate, really is a little more oblique, and a little more jaunty than roundhand, as it is shown in Bickham's "The Universal Penman".

My handwritten script style, which I call "Copperplate Handwriting" for convenience, is handwritten (not drawn as in Engraver's script) and is as close as I can get, to the original copperplate engravings in The Universal Penman.

This is my direct, handwritten interpretation of the style of script in the same volume, by Willington Clark.

(https://theflourishforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi226.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd289%2Fcaliken_2007%2FWillingtonClarktakeoff800-1.jpg&hash=4a336890d5aaefc6a58760a84d626234)
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Cheri on May 25, 2014, 07:55:53 AM
Paul Antonio was the person who enamored me of calligraphy :D Wow, that was over a year ago. Did I use the right superlative?


An input from a beginner:
I used the straight holder first when practicing the first few pages of Eleanor's book because I was waiting for my order of the red peerless oblique from Paper & Ink Arts. After practicing with oblique I find it easier to do copperplate than with straight holder.

I'm really amazed of this forum. Just wow- the knowledge, history, etc. had my brain fried. There's a lot to take in!
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Brad franklin on May 25, 2014, 09:39:52 AM
Isn't it wonderful  ;D
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Milonguera on June 07, 2014, 08:51:15 AM
Your discussion about history and the contrast between oblique and straight nib holders is very interesting and informative, and thanks, Ladies.

Several things struck me about watching the video, however. 

1--How he holds the pen, it appears, right on the flange.
2--The absence of squared tops and bottoms--almost intentional points.  (Maybe that's coz he's a guy...   ;D)
3--The tiny light on the pen.  I think I'm going to add that to the inventions desired page. 

Any thoughts or comments about the first 2? 
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: AndyT on June 07, 2014, 10:34:13 AM
Ah.  I've only just got around to watching the video in the first post of this thread, and it's not the one I thought it would be.  What I expected was this:

Oblique Vs Straight Holder (http://vimeo.com/29619683)

Highly recommended.  Towards the end he brings up some not so obvious points about the relationship between the angle of the pen relative to the paper (as opposed to the slant of the letters) and the effect that has on the ease of splaying the nib tines and the speed of snap.  I still don't understand his antipathy to oblique holders for copperplate really, because surely the workaround is simply to hold the pen at a steeper angle, but it's an interesting video nonetheless.  Besides, some of you seem to enjoy seeing him.
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Estefa on June 07, 2014, 01:29:33 PM
Your discussion about history and the contrast between oblique and straight nib holders is very interesting and informative, and thanks, Ladies.

Several things struck me about watching the video, however. 

1--How he holds the pen, it appears, right on the flange.
2--The absence of squared tops and bottoms--almost intentional points.  (Maybe that's coz he's a guy...   ;D)
3--The tiny light on the pen.  I think I'm going to add that to the inventions desired page. 

Any thoughts or comments about the first 2?

Thanks for reviving this thread ;)!

Just my two cents regarding your questions – 1) I do that too – I thought it was the normal way to hold a pen, but I guess everybody does it how it's most comfortable? And 2) I'd say, that is his personal style, he also uses unusual shading in his Capitals …


Ah.  I've only just got around to watching the video in the first post of this thread, and it's not the one I thought it would be.  What I expected was this:

Oblique Vs Straight Holder (http://vimeo.com/29619683)

Highly recommended.  Towards the end he brings up some not so obvious points about the relationship between the angle of the pen relative to the paper (as opposed to the slant of the letters) and the effect that has on the ease of splaying the nib tines and the speed of snap.  I still don't understand his antipathy to oblique holders for copperplate really, because surely the workaround is simply to hold the pen at a steeper angle, but it's an interesting video nonetheless.  Besides, some of you seem to enjoy seeing him.

Thanks for posting this, Andy! And I admit, I also still don't understand his antipathy against the Oblique for C.. I just saw in the first video, that he really holds the paper in a nearly 90 degree angle to his body, and from time to time turns the paper. I understand his points about the T and Q as he explained in your video, but I must admit that's not such a big argument for me regarding all the other points that for me make it easier to write Copperplate-ish. I mean, we shouldn't forget that ALL attempts at writing C. are workarounds, as it was historically written with a quill (broad nib – possible to make square bold lines as in T, but also flexible, so you could write the capital stem with a shade) …

Well, but his writing is so gorgeous, I don't care ;)! I just will not switch to a straight holder for Copperplate.

And I thought anyhow that the Oblique holder was an English invention?? Just never very successfull in Europe for whatever reason? Would be interesting to know more.
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: AndyT on June 07, 2014, 06:06:37 PM
And I thought anyhow that the Oblique holder was an English invention?? Just never very successfull in Europe for whatever reason? Would be interesting to know more.

Haha!  Yes, strange as it seems the earliest known patent was registered in London in 1831 by Messrs Mordan and Brockedon, who can also claim a patent for a cranked oblique nib in the same year.  Despite a few enthusiastic reviews the latter never seems to have found a very large market, and as for the holder the idea the idea sank without trace as far as I know.  Most likely such contrivances were regarded as expensive and gimmicky crinkum-crankums: after all the mass market steel pen trade was in its infancy and most people would have learned to write with a quill, so maybe the idea simply arrived ahead of its time and withered.   The offset copperplate nib has survived, of course.

My guess is that the American developers of the oblique holder came up with the idea independently, quite possibly several times.  It wasn't until 1885 that the familiar pressed brass flange with no ferrule was patented, just as the Golden Age was really getting going; earlier designs were either cumbersome or ink traps which probably hindered acceptance.  As Christopher has said before, documentation on this subject is very thin on the ground indeed, so for the most part we're left with conjecture.
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Faeleia on June 08, 2014, 03:02:34 AM
Guys, I think you may be interested in this. It's an interview with Paul, and he says more things in detail with regards to  the oblique/straight holder...

 Paul Antonio interview (http://www.calligraphy.co.uk/artist/paul-antonio-attong)

And to be honest, some nibs are quite annoying to use with the oblique. I can think of all the G nibs now.. But maybe it's my holder, but I usually find it hard to put pressure AND keep a nice loop with stiffer nibs, it always wants to go wonky, creating some really thin swells or ugly shapes with thicker swells.. The oblique holder takes some direct pressure away, unlike the straight holder, so I like the oblique for sensitive nibs. I find the straight holder much nicer to control too.
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Erica McPhee on June 13, 2014, 07:11:36 PM
The thread on making a custom tool has been moved here:  Custom Tool to Demonstrate Splitting Tines (http://theflourishforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=990.0)   :D
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Brad franklin on August 01, 2014, 11:48:52 PM
http://www.alumind.com/article/30-years-scribe/


check out the bottom of page there is an voice interview.
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video
Post by: Ken Fraser on August 07, 2014, 05:17:41 PM
Regarding Copperplate, I noticed that a different weight seems also to be a difference between American an European versions of this hand (generally speaking of course) – Europeans tend to write it less bold. Maybe that has to do with the Engrosser's or Engraver's Hand which is wholly American, as far as I see, and is much bolder than the historical Roundhands for example in the Universal Penman?

An excellent evaluation of the main difference  :D
Title: Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
Post by: Estefa on August 08, 2014, 06:21:17 AM
Thank you, Ken!!

Also thanks to you, Brad, for the interview – quite interesting!

And Felicia, also thanks for the interview! It's always fascinating to hear the different stories how people lived their journey through calligraphy.

I still think the whole straight or oblique holder thing is fairly subjective though :).