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Compound/complex ending flourish - order of pen strokes?

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Zivio:
I am currently reading and studying Michael Sull’s most excellent new book “Sull’s Manual of Advanced Penmanship.” If I may, I’d like to plug this book here, but also pose a question. 

If interested in the book, @Erica McPhee has posted a detailed review at this thread: https://theflourishforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8051.msg85296#msg85296

The instructions are very detailed and clear, however, I’m struggling with the order in which the compound ending flourishes around the word “Congratulations” is rendered*. It is clear to me there has to be some rejoining of the flourish either back to the final “s” or somehow starting at the “s” and rejoining the “C”… somehow. I can see how the flourish itself can be made in a continuous, non-lifted stroke. 

Besides the flourish, it seems to me the whole word must have had to have been written out completely before making the flourish.  Was it written without the beginning “C” first in place in order to get the spacing right then “C,” then the flourish added after?  If so, that means the flourish would need to join up in two places. Was it likely drawn starting after the “s” or starting after the “C”?

I think I’m struggling with this because I am only familiar with Spencerian as a more “spontaneous” form of handwriting … no pen lifts, so the concept of rejoining is pretty foreign to me.

* This example is on Page 39 of the book.  I’m including a screen grab here, but in case this is a copywrite infringement, perhaps @Erica McPhee might remove it, and I’ll just have to hope someone else who has purchased the book may be able to reply.  Hey!  This is an excellent reason to purchase it — I hope this teases you into it!

Cyril Jayant:

--- Quote from: Zivio on November 14, 2023, 10:23:06 PM --- 

Besides the flourish, it seems to me the whole word must have had to have been written out completely before making the flourish.  Was it written without the beginning “C” first in place in order to get the spacing right then “C,” then the flourish added after?  If so, that means the flourish would need to join up in two places. Was it likely drawn starting after the “s” or starting after the “C”?
@Zivio it could have been two part  in this and this is more into OP writing type and not the spencerian  general penmanship.

I am adding the rough drawing how it was actually made. My Apologise :-X..  it was not Calligraphy ( Beautiful writing  :D) Just undressed it to show what is it's Skelton .
Many older Master penman used lot of pen lifting. Most signatures  that has" infinite flourishing" where  there are many chances to have some pen lifting.  Writing was an art and although there were rules many masters had many tricks to make their writing. So pen lifting is also we have to master in to a certain extent. But it is challenging  as our lifting is clearly visible as it it not perfectly done.   

--- End quote ---

Zivio:
@Cyril Jayant  Wow -- thanks for taking the time to draw this out!  If I may ask a follow-up question: 

The long flourish strokes themselves were not as big a mystery to me. In fact, I think I could make them in either direction: coming off the C, left to right as you show, and then rejoining the exit stroke of the "s."  Here are the two options I can see:

I could also see first writing "most" of the "C" stopping at the shaded portion just before the second crossing, then "ongratulations" and come out of the final "s" and work backwards over the full word and rejoining the "C" on the thick shade.  The rejoin on the thick shade would be easier to camouflage, and the main benefit, though, is you've got the full word already written out so your flourish crossings can be spaced appropriately and might be easier to work with the balance. 

Write the "C" and build the the long continuous flourish, then write "ongratulations."  Just typing this isn't making sense to me. Seems it would be horribly difficult to get the spacing right, and then that final rejoin on the "s" would be precarious.

I'm honestly guessing I may have just answered my own question, because option 1 seems the most logical. I think it's the effect of that "infinite continuous flourish" trick that was baffling me.  And I also think that's the magic effect intended!  It just seemed so weird to me because I've never hazarded anything like this yet.  Also, reading further in the text, Sull does talk about rejoin and retouch technique.  He just hadn't been clear on this example, nor several other similar ones on that same page. 

Erica McPhee:
This is a great question. Using images for educational purposes are allowed.

I wasn’t able to get to my pen and Cyril beat me to it with a “real” calligraphy demo. But here is something I did up real quick in ProCreate.

I began with the word first, then went back and did the capital.

As you have deducted - flourishing can take quite a bit of preplanning.

Zivio:
Ah, perfect @Erica McPhee!  I’m only now getting into some baby flourishing, certainly nothing as complex as this!  Recently took Suzanne Cunningham’s “The Art of the Oval” and learned some good stuff.

Having approached Spencerian as everyday handwriting, (spontaneous writing, as I just learned Sull calls this!) I think my brain was having trouble getting past pen lifts, rejoins, touch ups and adding shade after … thinking very linearly.  But it just didn’t make any sense to me that those flourishes could just hover out in the ether and then writing the word after.  I’m certain if I’d started with Copperplate or some other script this may have been self-evident. 

I’m learning so many new things from “Sull’s Manual of Advanced Penmanship,” and sending thanks again for putting me on to it!  “Book learning” for now, but I have aspirations …


PS: Your “real quick” is blowing my little penmanship mind! I totally get that you might not call it your “best work” but from where I sit, that would be an impressive accomplishment.

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