Flourish Forum
Tutorials => Copperplate Tutorial by SMK => Topic started by: Salman Khattak on September 13, 2016, 12:56:55 AM
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Copperplate Minuscules - Group 4
The last group of the Minuscule letters contains the misfits i.e. letters that don’t follow a pattern. These are:
(https://theflourishforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthesixapp.com%2Fsmk%2FCopperplateLessons%2FCuPl8-group4.gif&hash=515586e5e164ba16662084ba8351974c)
They will be easy enough to form with the skills you have developed so far.
f - After drawing the entry hairline, the letter ‘f’ starts about halfway in the 1st Ascender space with a hairline that expands to full width by the middle of the x-height. This width is maintained until the 1st Descender space. Now the top loop is formed by drawing up from the starting point of the first stroke about ⅓ to ½ of the way into the 2nd Ascender space and looping over. A small shade can be added on the way down if desired. The downstroke of the loop meets the first stroke about ⅓ of the way below the waist line. The ‘crossbar’ starts with a ‘blob’ in the triangle space formed between the entry hairline and the main stroke and ‘exits’ on the other side in the same manner as if it was an exit hairline from an ‘i’. You can think of this crossbar as the very bottom of the ‘i’ continuing into the exit hairline.
r - The ‘r’ starts with an entry hairline that goes all the way up to the waist line. At this point you form a tear-drop shaped ‘blob’ that goes about ⅓ of the way about the waist line. The shaded stroke is like a deformed compound curve that starts with a slight hairline from the bottom of the tear-drop going to the right until you reach the point where the shade can be drawn. The shade is they drawn down at the same slant as other shaded strokes. The finishing hairline is the same as the one after a compound stroke.
s - The ‘s’ starts just like the ‘r’ up until the tear-drop above the waist line. The shaded stroke of the ‘s’ is an upside down ‘c’. The exit stroke is drawn separately from the point where the bottom of the shaded stroke meets the base line.
NOTE: The shaded stroke in the ‘c’ is heaviest just below the midpoint of the x-height. This means that the heaviest weight of the upside down ‘c’ as used in an ‘s’ would be just above the midpoint of the x-height. This last point is important as putting the weight at or below the midpoint will make your ‘s’ visually dissimilar in slant to the other letters.
x - The ‘x’ is just two ‘c’s back to back. Do you see that? The first ‘c’ is shaded and upside down while the second ‘c’ unshaded but follows the same slant as the rest of the letters.
z - The ‘z’ starts with an upside down ‘c’ but instead of curving up at the base line we make a small tear-drop shaped loop and go into a descender that goes down about 1/3rd of the way below the 1st descender line into the 2nd descender space. The overall shape of the descender loop should be like a tear-drop that is aligned with the letter slant.
k - The ‘k’ starts with the same stroke like an ‘h’. The second stroke is the top arm that starts just a bit below the midpoint of the x-height and is drawn like the top part of a ‘c’ but is kept a little flatter. The last stroke is just a small compound curve about ⅔ of the x-height.
There are no new types of joins in this group so there should be no issues on that front. Keep a eye on the spacing and overall texture of the writing.
Please post the following words for feedback:
risk, fox, stork, craze, and one word of your choosing using at least 2 of the letters in the last group.
As a final project, please write the following Chinese proverb:
be not afraid of going slow, only of standing still
Here is a link to a video I made as a follow-up to a workshop: Group 4 Minuscules (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmq0vGsVtkU).
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Salman. I didn't complete the final project, Chinese proverb. :D
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No - you wrote out the poem 'If' instead 😃
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Hi Salman, here is a go at set 4. Thanks!
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@Anjali N
You are quick Anjali :-)
It is great to see the rounded shades starting with a hairline.....but now the shade is a bit too low. This causes the overall letter to 'look' more upright than it actually is. Can you see that? I think you can move the start of the shade back up just a tiny bit and it will fix itself. These are minor adjustments to a tiny bit is all that is needed.
Here's my feedback on the remaining letters:
1. The 'blob' of the 'r' is a teardrop shape that should line up with the slant. Yours is almost vertical.
2. The shaded stroke of the 'r' is starting too far right causing it to be more slanted than the rest of the letters. This is a tricky stroke as it is almost like a stunted compound curve. The 'shoulder' of the 'r' (just before the shaded stroke) is too sharp as well.
3. The 's' in 'risk' is good but the one in 'stork' is too upright. The reason is the shade of the upside-down 'c'. If you turn the paper upside down, the shades stroke of the 's' should look like a 'c' at the correct slant. Do you see it?
4. The shade on the first stroke of the 'f' should start below the 1st Ascender line. You start the shade from the very top of the stroke.
5. The second stroke of the 'k' (that looks like the top of the 'c') could be a bit more rounded.
6. The two 'c's in the 'x are very different - and neither is a good one. A good 'x' is made up of two good 'c's - the shaded one is upside down, the unshaded on is right side up.
7. Your shades are varying throughout - they are especially heavy on the 'f' and 'k' in 'fork'.
These letters take a bit of time as they don't follow the same pattern - each one is different. I will be looking forward to your next attempt.
- Salman
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Hi Salman, hope you are having a nice weekend! Here is my second attempt, thanks!
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Resubmitting "fork" as unnoticed the shading was off on the one I previously submitted!
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@Anjali N
Sorry it took me a few days to get back to you Anjali. Things have been a bit hectic lately.
OK- you got the 'blobs' of the 'r' and 's' in line. That is good. I will go with my feedback letter by letter:
'f' - The shaded stroke is good but the loop is uneven. The principal for this loop is similar to that of the 'j' or 'g' - it should have an even curve on both sides. There isn't actually a curve on the shaded part but the gradual increase of the shade coupled with the slight turning of the part above the shade created the illusion of a curve. Turn the paper upside down and see if it matches the lower loops of the 'j' or 'g'.
'x' - the shaded upside down 'c' is still not quite right. Look at it upside down and see if it is a good 'c'. The stroke of the unshaded 'c' should be no thicker than a hairline - yours is too thick.
's' - the shade of the upside down 'c' starts too soon - once again, look at it upside down to check.
'r' - the transition from the right moving stroke to the shade is still too abrupt. The shoulder of the 'r' is rounded. It should be drawn almost as if you are drawing a compound curve.
'k' - the main stroke should be even all along and the thin stroke should be no thicker than a hairline.
'z' - the loop of the 'z' should be horizontal along the base line. The shade of the second stroke should start only below the base line.
Have another go at it with these points in mind. This is the last little bit so a push now will pay huge dividends - you are almost there.
- Salman
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Thank you so much for the detailed feedback, Salman! (And hope things have been hectic in a good way :) ).
I'll keep practicing and post again when I feel like I've made progress!
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Way to go @Anjali N. Good to see you in Group 4. You calligraphy have improved leaps and bounds.
Keep writing,
- Ashok
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Thanks for the encouragement, Ashok!
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Hi Salman, here is another attempt! As always, thank you! :)
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Much better @Anjali N - only a couple of things this time.
1. The shoulder of the 'r' is a bit too sharp still. Here is a video I made a while ago that might help: Group 4 letters (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmq0vGsVtkU).
2. The two 'c's in the 'x' match well but their slant doesn't match the rest of the letters. They are too upright.
Try some different words using the 'x' , 'r' and 's'.
Regards,
Salman
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Thanks, Salman - the video was really helpful! Here are some different words. Thanks!
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@Anjali N
That was quick Anjali. This is very well done. The loop of the 'f' could be a little wider and made with a hairline - the downstroke hairline takes a bit of practice.
OK - so now that you have covered all the minuscules, it is time to write up a sentence. This will test your consistency, slant control and spacing. Write the following Chinese proverb:
be not afraid of going slow, only of standing still
I will be checking for everything we have covered so far. You can write it as many times as you want but only post your best effort.
-Salman
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Thanks, Salman! I will work on the sentence (and glad there are no "x's" in it) ;)
Wondering if you are planning on doing a majuscles series, as well? Would love to continue on after I've mastered the sentence :)
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Yes Anjali - we will move to the Majuscules after this. I just haven't had the time to put them up yet. There might be a bit of a break but I will get to it as soon as I can.
- Salman
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Wonderful, Salman - looking forward to it! Thanks again for all of your time and generosity!
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Hi Salman, here is a go at the sentence; look forward to your thoughts.
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Hi Anjali,
Your letter forms and spacing is excellent. What I have seen is that there is uneven pressure at the start of straight letters. Rest I will leave it to Salman to comment.
Keep writing,
- Ashok
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Thanks, Ashok - appreciate the feedback! I will work on my consistency with the pressure!
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@Anjali N
Oh Anjali - looks like you were in a hurry with this one :-)
- the first 'b' starts to taper at 1/2 x-height.
- the 'f's are very shaky - not good enough for a final project.
- the second 'a' in 'afraid' is off slant (you can see the shade next to the slant line)
- the two 'g's in 'going' are different weights and size.
- the 'i-n' join in 'going' is too tight. The spacing for the exit-to-entry-hairline-join should be about 1.5 of a 'regular' join.
- the second 'n' in 'going' is unbalanced.
- the 'a-n' and 'i-n' joins in 'standing' are too tight.
- the 'g' in 'standing' is different than the two in 'going' - so you have 3 different 'g's in this one sentence.
- like Ashok mentioned - your straight strokes are not uniform.
I did not mention this in the original assignment but try to balance your composition. If you can't make the two lines equal in width, center them on top of each other.
This is going to be a bit of work so tackle it with patience. You have learned all of the things I mentioned already so this is well within your capabilities. I will be looking forward to your next attempt.
- Salman
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Thank you, Salman! Yes, I'm always in a hurry, so I will slow it down and tackle with patience like you suggested! I appreciate the detailed feedback.
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@SMK Hi Salman, hope you've been doing well! Here is a second attempt at the phrase. Look forward to your feedback. Thanks!
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@Anjali N
I am afraid you have lost a bit of your form with this one Anjali. The 'o' forms have the shade coming into the counter space inside and the 'f' is rather untidy. The lower loops of all 3 'g's is different. I think your last attempt was better than this one.
BTW - the lower loops on the 'j', 'y', 'g' etc. should join the main stroke just below the base line and come out at the base line on the right side. Yours are joining the main stroke too low.
Salman
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Salman, thank you for the feedback. I'll keep practicing!
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OK, here I am on group 4 - thanks Salman for your time/patience/effort. It is so important to have a tutor who can explain the 'why's and the 'how's...
I had quite a bit of free time and practiced more :D than usual (my time seems to always be limited when there are no holidays) and here is my practice sheet. Several comments on this one: lately I became very sloppy and didn't bother much about the x-height so I started to work on smaller x-height. After watching carefully my writing (and seeing my careless/wobbly lines) I decided to get back to a larger x-height. And this sheet has a 7.5 mm height. Obviously letter forms are not at their best and I don't know why but now I have some problems with my ovals... As you can see many of them are leaning forward. Another aspect was the width. I know Prasad posted some info regarding this aspect somewhere around here but I still have a question: what is better - to go for a slender oval or for a fatter one?
Oh, and I've watched your video for group 4. I've noticed you hold the pen quite up on the holder. Is it your regular grip or is it something that - I don't know - has to do with the camera setup or...? Or I'm just seeing wrong..?
...and no, I haven't written the sentence yet -> will wait till I have a "Go" from you and after your feedback.
PS I also draw some guidelines for different x-heights and different ratios and saved them as pdf. So if there are members in search for something like this - just ask. I'll be more than happy to help (it's the least I can do).
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@sarthina - nice work. I really like your sense of spacing. It is on the tight side but doesn't look crowded because of the lighter shades. It works very well in my opinion.
The tops of your 'o' strokes are too steep - just the part between 9 and 12 on a clock face. The left stroke of the 'o' should be an 'i' with a tapering start and end (if you cover the top, the bottom part should be indistinguishable from an 'i'). Also, your letter will lean forward if the heaviest part of the shade is above 1/2 x-height - bring it down just slightly below and it will 'stand up' straighter. A combination of these two will give you a good 'o'.
As a general rule, the width of the 'o' should be half its height. You can go a bit thinner or wider according to taste.
I do grip my holders a bit hight but it was a way too high in the video for group 4. I had the phone set up on top of a glass and was writing right under it so I had to go in at an angle as well as tilt my head to the side to see what I was doing - not the best setup for good calligraphy but it got the job done :-) I have been meaning to make videos for each of the lessons but will do those with a better setup.
A couple of things I noticed in the lettering above:
- the shaded stroke of the 's' should start as an upside down 'c'. Your stroke comes down a bit before moving to the right. Turn the paper upside down and see if that stroke would make a good 'c'.
- The 'r' looks really nice but tends to have a slight wave in the shaded part. This stroke is straight. Watch out for this in the compound stroke as well. The 'c' and 'r' in 'crazy' on the second last line just above the 'NO' are a thing of beauty.
- The 'x' needs work. The first, upside down, 'c' is a tad too flat.
Lets see another go at these words and then you will take on the final exercise :-)
- Salan
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Thanks a lot for the thorough feedback.
Read it again and again, compare it with my sheet, watched your video (again and then again...) and, still, the "s" is killing me >:(. I started working on its form even before your feedback cause I saw it wasn't right. At one point I even started to make "rotated ovals" - don't know if this term exists! - just to see how does an inverted "c" would look like. Then I even took my pencil and drew the letter at the beginning of each row.... Finally I've decided to, well, take a break. It began to making me mad so I decided it is wise to let everything cool down.
I'll only post my last rows of practice (the rest of the pages are just ...ugly) and wait for your opinion.
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@sarthina - you did the right thing to give it a rest. It never works to push through when things are this frustrating.Not all progress is visible on the page which can feel like no progress is being made.
The good news is that you have gotten it right at least once :-) The last 's' and 'x' on the first line are done very nicely. I think it will help if you focus on just the 'o' for the next practice session whenever you feel like it. Just focus on getting the letter right. Draw it out with a pencil and then fill in the shade a few times - just to figure out the structure in your head.
Follow this with a few 'c's and then jump right into the 'x' in the next practice session.
- Salman
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Back again. I did practice on specific letters and I'll post my practice words though I don't feel like I'm ...proficient or something. I'll keep practice anyway.
P.S. Don't mind the first 'extr?me' - it's crap. Hope it doesn't injure anyone's eyes.
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@sarthina - I know sometimes it feels like the progress has plateaued and further practice is not producing any results but stick with it.
I can see the slant of the 'o' has improved a lot. The 'e's are falling over a bit tubt the 'o' in 'socks' is spot on, as is the 'c' next to it. the 's' is also nice in that the upside down 'c' is more like a 'c' than before. The 'x' still needs more work but if you can get the 's' this close, the ''x cannot be that far behind :-)
- Salman
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The day of the fox ;)
...coz this is what I've been practicing lately. Looking forward to some feedback. Have a nice weekend everyone.
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@sarthina - lovely work once again. I really like the shape of the counter on the 'f' - very nice. The 'o' has much better slant now and the 'x's look good too.
The 's' can use a bit more work though. The very slight left movement at the top of the shaded curve works with the non-blob 's' like you have done on the very last one. Continue to use that if you are more comfortable with it. The upside down 's' shape of the blob isn't quite there yet on the regular 's'.
Continue practicing the 's' with the rest of the letters in this group now that you have the 'o' figured out. Use 's', 'e' and 'c' the most just to lock in the structure of the 'o'.
I will be looking forward to the next update.
- Salman
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Hi Salman, I'm back! :)
Attached is a new attempt. Not perfect (something really strange going on with slant and join with the i-n of "going," badly shaped d in "standing," etc). But hopefully an improvement over my last attempt.
Look forward to your feedback. Thanks!
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Hi Anjali,
Looks good. I feel the shade is a bit thicker for the 'x' height. For detailed comments over to Salman.
-Ashok
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@Anjali N - this is good work Anjali and an improvement over the last attempt.
A couple of things that jumps out at me are:
1. Your shades are not consistent. The two 'f's on the fist line both have different weights of the shade. The 'n' in 'not' is thicker than the 't'. The 'g' s all have lighter shades than the rest of the lettering.
2. The shade of the 'f' should start just below the 1st ascender line. Yours start after the waist line - this makes the 'f' look much weaker than the letters around it.
3. The 'i-n' join you refer to suffers from the taper in the 'i'. You will see it if you compare this to the 'i-n' join in 'standing'.
4. Do not forget to square the tops of the letters so they are nice and crisp.
If you notice, none of the above has to do with the structure of the lettering. This should be good news. We are now refining your script and these things are what differentiates the merely 'ok' from the 'really good'. You have the ability - just need a little refinement of the eye.
As for the weight of the stroke that Ashok mentioned, I generally find that lighter shades look more elegant but there is work by Lupfer with pretty heavy shading that is just stunning. Play with the different weights of shade to see what you like best.
- Salman
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Thank you, Ashok and Salman! As always, I appreciate the feedback. I will keep practicing, with a particular focus on the items that were mentioned.
Regarding weight, do you think I would be better served by a different nib (in addition the more consistency in my strokes)? Or do you think it has nothing to do with nib & it's 100% consistency? What I'm trying to say is that I'm using an EF66 and wondering if I might be able to achieve consistency more easily if I were to switch to a less flexible nib?
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It is indeed possible that you will get better control with a different nib. Each nib has its own character and some will work better for you than others. FWIW - I find the EF-66 a bit hard to control too although I used it for a large part of my early learning practice. The Gillott 303, arguably a more difficult to control nib, works much better for me.
I am of the opinion that one should master one nib and use it for everything. The 303 works very well in this regard as it can produce lettering as large as 3/8th of an inch and is precise enough to be used for small lettering. I think this has much to do with the snap-back that I quite like.
The Hunt 101 can produce much larger shades and is still quite usable for smaller lettering but feels a bit too soft in the snap-back department for my liking. It is a superb nib though - I used it for all the examples in these lessons.
These two are the nibs I use most. I have tried one Musselman's perfection nib (thanks to a very generous friend) and I would love nothing more than to get a lifetime supply of it but sadly that is well beyond the reach of my tattered wallet even if the nibs were to become available :-)
- Salman
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@SMK Thanks, Salman! I do have a Hunt 101 in my collection, so will give that a try & will get my hands on a 303, as well. The flange on my current pen holder is only fitted for the EF66, but I gave my husband a strong hint that I wanted an Hourglass universal pen holder for my upcoming birthday (strong hint = email with the subject line "birthday" and a link to the holder). ;D
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Good one Anjali - I am sure your husband very much appreciates the 'hint' :-)
S.
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It is killing me!!! The "s" minuscule. And the "x". Sometimes I feel like I GOT it, sometimes my hand (and nib and ink and paper) just doesn't want to listen to my brain. And I get frustrated. And if I see that 2 or 3 rows of practice just don't look/feel right, I decide to leave it for some other time. I looked over your example many times, draw the letters by pencil, measured them, traced over them with nib w/o ink... And, yes, asking myself if I'm just stupid?! :o
On the brighter side of things :D, I found a word (that's me discovering the wheel again 8) ) that is short and it has both "s" and "x" in it and which pleases all of us - if it's not only on the paper 8). You'll figure it out for sure. Oh, yes, and I hope I'm not stepping on eggs here.
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@sarthina - you have a good 's' in the first 'socks' and 'stork' on the first line. The others are not bad either but these are the better ones. The 'x's are nicely done so I would say you have that covered. I especially like the 'y' in xylo - that is one beautifully done letter.
A bit of a break might do you good. Also, I think you are being a tad too hard on yourself. You write a very nicely balanced and formed script.
S.
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Sarthina, look at your practice sheet you posted in October http://theflourishforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5070.15
You've made so much progress! great job! Maybe Salman is right that a short break will do you some good - especially if you practice every day... after like 3 days of practice I get angry >:(
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Thanks, Brad, for your appreciation. Actually, I too get angry when my hand doesn't obey so I leave the nib aside and do something else (in fact, lately, this "something else" means I am flirting with broad edge calligraphy ::) ). But there are moments when frustration escalates no matter what I do. I should have started this beautiful art when younger....
Latest update below...
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Hi Salman, I am trying out a new ink and a new nib & experimenting with less shading. Do you see an improvement in width consistency? (Apologies for the lack of centering and the shaky f's). Also, any tips on squaring the tops / bottoms of letters? I feel like it still looks blobby but I'm unsure of how to improve it (it always seems like I'm getting the paper too wet from the ink). Thanks!
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@sarthina - this is good work! Are you feeling more comfortable with the 's' now?
Let's give the assigned words a try now. I think you will get it easily at this point.
- Salman
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@Anjali N
Wow - what a difference from your last submission. Whatever you are doing is definitely working :-)
You have done it! You are ready to move on to the majuscules when I get the time to put the lessons up.
- Salman
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Thanks for the feedback, @SMK .
You mean writing the words at the beginning of this group or the sentence??
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I meant the words but you can do the sentence too if you feel like it. I think you are ready to take it on.
S.
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Thanks, Salman!! Appreciate your guidance and patience! As much as I love the feel of the 66EF nib, I couldn't control it well, so will stick with the nib I switched to. Looking forward to continuing on with the majuscles when you post them!
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Hi.
Well, not much to say, just practicing... Of course there are some letters gone wrong, but ...up from a plane they look good ;) .
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Very nicely done @sarthina - you have made it through the minuscules.
The secondary shade on the looped descenders of the 'y' and 'g' should be very slight - no more than a hint. Other than that, you have produced a well executed script that you should be proud of.
Do keep up the practice. It helps to practice any elements you find slipping about once every 2 weeks and your script will remain sharp.
- Salman
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Thank you very much, Salman. Both for your kind words and, especially, for your patience and helpful feedback.
Of course, I'll keep practicing and I think I'll give it another try with the sentence. I'm considering posting it to my previous post on Kind critique section if you don't mind. And I am proud (kinda ::) ) but it is only lately that I discovered how much work, time, determination, attention and systematic practice it takes to get around here (which is not far, I know, but "every thousand miles starts with the first step").
Looking forward to majuscules...
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You are most welcome @sarthina - I am glad and thankful that these lessons are useful to so many people. I have limited time available for feedback but I try to get back to it at least once a week - I hope that is not too frustrating.
- Salman
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Hey Salman!
I'll continue to work on the things you mentioned in Group 3. So far this group has been challenging, with the f being the most so. Here's what I have so far. For the f's, I like the second underlined one; the one with the question mark appears to have a loop that is too big. I also like the f in "from". For the r's: I think those are coming along; some of the "compound" strokes are a bit too thin, but I'll keep working at them.
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@Chetwyn Clarke
The 'f' is a challenging letter but I am sure you will get it quickly with your good sense of proportion. The ascender loop is exactly like the descender loop of the 'y' but upside down - so turn the paper upside down to double check. Also, the shaded stroke of the 'f' should be a bit more wedge like - it should start expanding just below the 1st ascender line and achieve full width not before the waist line.
The 'r' doesn't have such a pronounced shoulder. The hairline down from the 'blob' joins what looks like the last 2/3rds of the compound stroke.
Keep practicing those 'o's.
- Salman
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@SMK It's been a rough couple weeks, and nowhere near as much practice as I would have liked. Getting back around to it over the last 2 days, and this was today's practice. I think the f's are coming along, but work to be done on the r's and s's. Getting the blob on top correct, and that upside-down c will be my work for the next week.
- Chet
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@Chetwyn Clarke
The 'f's are indeed coming along nicely. The 'r' looks good too. The 's' needs some work like you have mentioned. Note that the max shade of the 'c' is just slightly lower than the mid-point of the stroke so when we turn it upside down, the weight will be on the higher side of the mid point - your 's's have the weight (i.e. max shade) on the lower side. The shade should be pretty much gone by the time you reach the base line. Turn the paper around and see if the top of the 'c' looks good.
- Salman
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Do you see an improvement...
This is superb progress Anjali. Waiting to see your Majuscules :D :D
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@ash0kgiri Thanks!! I've let my practice go lately, so need to get back into a regular cadence again.
@SMK I know you must be terribly busy, but any thoughts on when you might post majuscles? :D
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@Anjali N
I know a number of people are waiting for the Majuscules. I will try my best to put them up this month but can't promise.
- Salman
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@SMK -- of course. I know this must take such a great amount of your time. Whenever you get them up, whether it be a month or a year, I and your numerous other pupils will be here! Thank you again for all of your time, instruction, and guidance, and your willingness to share your tremendous skill with us.
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@SMK Hey Salman! My practice really did drop off the past two months, but I am getting back into the swing of things. I think the last 2 s's, the second x, the first z, and the second k are the best out of the groups of 5. I'm not too sure what happened with 'risk'. Still a fair way to go!
- Chet
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@Chetwyn Clarke
You are almost there Chet.
Your 's's look good on their own but their slant is a bit off when compared to other letters. This is due to the weight of the shade being too low - remember the shaded stroke is an upside down 'c' so most of the weight of the shade should be above the halfway point. This will allow for a more graceful turn-in at the base line. The same applies to the 'x' - see the issue you run into in the last 'fox' - the shade continues all the way to the base line making it hard to turn in gracefully.
The 'z's look good but lighten up on that shade as you approach the base line.
The shade on the loop of the 'f' should be no more than a hint. Also, the top of it should be a bit more pointed. Turn the page upside down and the loop should look like that of a 'g' or a 'y'.
Keep at it - your script is looking good.
- Salman
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@SMK
I think I'm improving with the turn in at the baseline for the 's' and the 'x': let me know how they are looking. I worked on the shade of the 'z', and the 'f'; I need to practice a bit more on where loop for the 'f' joins the downstroke.
I finished off with a note to myself.
Chet
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@Chetwyn Clarke
Hi Chet - you are pretty much there. The spacing in 'risk' is very nicely judged. This is a nice example of Copperplate and only needs a couple of 'tweaks'.
1. The loop of the 'f' should match that of the 'g' in shape - i.e. it should have a more pointy end similar to the 'g's when you turn the page upside down.
2. The slight shade on the right side of the 'f's loop should be very slight. Leave it off for now - it is only for decoration.
3. The top turn of the 'c' should be as if you are making an 'o' - only make the round blob 'inside' the counter space about 1/3rd of the way down. The top of the 'c' is too tight here.
These are only minor tweaks but I think these are well within your capability so let's have just one more pass at the letters in this group before moving on.
BTW - your ink seems to be getting a bit thick.
- Salman
-
Hi @Salman Khattak,
I had a 3 week break due to business travel but now I am back on track with practising. I struggle a bit with spacing in this group - "risk" seems to narrow, while "craze" seems to wide. Attached is my last attempt.
Thank you for your feedback!
Katja
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@Salman Khattak
Hi Salman,
I tried the final proverb in this one to get some practice in with some other letters. I like the 'f' in favour; if that is a good exemplar, I'll continue working toward that.
Thanks for the feedback!
Chet
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@neriah
Katja - you are right about the spacing issues. However, you are getting good at the analysis which is always a plus.
The spacing in 'risk' is tighter because you seem to make the exit hairlines a bit steeper there. Compared the exit hairline of the 'r' in both words - this is more noticeable in lines 2 and 3. The r-a join in 'craze' is flatter than the r-i join in 'risk' and the trend continues throughout the words.
Also, your slant is varying a bit. Look at the 'c' and the 'e' in 'craze' - the 'c' is standing up a bit compared to the 'e'.
In 'fox' - exit the hairline from the 'o' a bit higher to bring the 'x closer. Your exit from the 'o' is almost at mid x-height. About 1/3 from the waist line would work better in this case IMO.
It is good to see you have not lost your delicate letter forms. I will be looking forward to seeing more of your lettering.
- Salman
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@Chetwyn Clarke
Hi Chet - good to see your work.
The 'f' in 'flavour' is indeed a good one. The loop could be a tad tighter though. I like the one in 'afraid' too and also the middle one in the second group of 5. To be honest - any of the three I mentioned would get full marks.
Your slant is a bit off. The long stems seem to stand up a bit while the lower loops (as in 'g') seem to slant a bit too much. Draw a few slant lines with pencil on your page for practice. It helps.
Also, the weight on the shaded stroke of the 's' should be heaviest above mid x-height. This will let you curve the lower part of the shaded stroke in nicely and maintain a consistent slant with other letters.
We are now in the 'refinement' stage with your script so it will take a bit of doing to get things just right. You are almost there.
- Salman
-
Hi @Salman Khattak, thank you for your feedback.
I am getting somewhat frustrated with this group, attached is my last attempt. All in all I don't think it is that bad, but some letters are still off. I am often loosing slant on letter "k" and my "s" isn't the best - I often end up making the lower part of the shade thicker and it should be other way around. I have problem with that inverted "c" in general - I do understand how it should look and I see how it looks but I keep failing at reproducing it. I usually end up with thicker shade at the bottom, but sometimes it is off slant or straight rather than curved.
There is one thing I feel improved and that is spacing, I think it is more consistent now.
I wrote "fox" and "program" twice because "o" is wrong in first "fox" and "g" is off slant in first "program" (I tried to fix that "g" which made it even worse).
Thanks!
Katja
-
@neriah
Katja - I suffered from a very similar block when I was learning Copperplate. I believe this is because one's understanding of the script progresses at a faster rate than the control one has. Taking a short break helped in my case but then I had been at it very regularly for more than a few weeks. Your situation might be different.
To be honest, you are not going to make all the letters perfectly all the time. Allow yourself to make mistakes - it is quite o.k.
Also, the words you submit for evaluation should be your best work - you are not required to produce them all at the same time. You can pick the best ones from a whole page of practice and just submit those.
I was asked to write out a few words in basic Copperplate for an ink label recently. I filled 4 pages with a dozen attempts before I was happy with the execution.
A couple of notes about your practice:
- The blob on the 'r' and the 's' should be teardrop shaped and should taper out before it hits the waist line. It should also go a little higher. Yours are flat on the left side.
- The shaded stroke of the 'r' should come a little more to the right - it is too close to the hairline stroke.
A good way to practice for the 's' is to make a few upside down 'c's - draw the letter 'c' upside down and then turn the paper around to see how it looks. It will give you a better feel for the stroke I think.
Keep at it - your script is already quite mature, we are just polishing it up at this point.
- Salman
-
@SMK
Hi Salman,
I got caught up in work and other things so I had couple of weeks long break after your last feedback. To be honest, it helped. I changed my approach a bit and decided to learn group 4 letters again. And to do only one word at the time. So I have been writing "risk" and its individual letters for quite some time now.
Attached is to where I got. I am happy with this one and when I concentrate and take my time, I can produce it consistently.
I would like to get your feedback before moving on the other words of this group :)
Thank you!
Katja
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@neriah
This is nicely done Katja. I would love to see the rest of the words for this group :-)
- Salman
-
@Salman
Hi.
Seems like this one will be a long haul....
Nowhere near submission, but a few doubts which I have. Saw your video, and read all your comments here to everyone.
Been making the coffee bean shape, with the c and inverted c (last line) but if I try to make the s with the inverted c, it turns out to be funny and crappy. (Made 1 in the last line, the underlined one). The slope of the inverted c (the straight inside part) is 53 deg in this - I checked). The ones in the first line, are much lesser. A bit confused there. Same issue with the z. If I make the inverted c, the inside of the letter seems very flat and not curvy, like a z is supposed to be.
The x I prefer the one with the compound curve, but there if I make the blob any bigger in the top right, it makes it very difficult to get spacing right. I know I'll probably never have to write a word with miniscule x in between, but you never know.
Could you please clarify these two things before I learn the wrong thing and spend days unlearning it.
Sorry for asking such stupid doubts.
Regards,
Vipul
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@Vipul
It is great to see you analyzing the letters in such detail. If you compare the inverted 'c' in the last underlined 's' to the right side of the coffee bean you will notice that the shade in the 's' starts way too early. It is the right side of the coffee bean that makes up the right side of the 's' - just make sure to make the thickest part lie above 1/2 x-height. The same applies to the 'z'.
The coffee bean exercise is more suitable for Engrosser's script but will work here to establish the shape.
The third 'x' in the inverted 'c' style is pretty good - it is the unshaded 'c' that needs to be a bit more slanted there :-) On the compound curve ones, make the hairline loops a bit rounder, they are too pointy leaving little space in the counter for the 'blob'.
You have quickly adopted to form a nice 'f' - the last 2 are lovely. The 'r' and the 'k' needs work but I am sure you will get to them in due time. Lets concentrate on the 's', 'x' and 'z' for now.
- Salman
-
@Salman
Hi,
I'm back with a few stupid doubts. Sorry, but i could not find answers to these. Also, my nib is in its last leg and really scratchy. Running out of nibs and next delivery is only in March due to non-availability here, so please excuse the scratches and double strokes at places.
I think I've understood the 's' and just need to practice it to get the shape consistent. However, at times I find that the max shade below the centre seems to appear more balanced. Marked the one in which I made it so.
The 'z' is of similar thing, like the 's'. A bit more practice needs to be put in, I know.
The 'x' is a nightmare. The inverted c one doesn't work at all for me. I am sticking to the compound curve one, if you don't mind. I found that if I reduce the slant of the compound curve, like I deliberately did in the one marked, the'x' seems balanced. In all other places, it seems tipping forward.
I know this is nowhere near the standard, but stuck here after practicing all day.
Regards,
Vipul
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@Salman
Hi,
Today's efforts.
I think I'm getting the idea of 's', 'x' and 'z'. It's only the x that's creating major issues and doubts.
Guess it's more a matter of understanding the shape and space around the letter and practice.
Regards,
Vipul
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@Vipul
It is helpful to work on one letter at a time. Just focus on the 'x' or the 's' for now until you figure it out. It can be a bit frustrating but you will work through it.
Don't worry about the placement of the thickest part of the shade for now. Just work on making the letter look balanced. The issue you might run into with placing the shade too low is that it makes it harder to make the curve to the left at the base line but you will figure out what to do with it.
Also, look at the letter upside down to see if it makes a good 'c'.
- Salman
-
@Salman
Hi,
Submitted my practice today. I think I've got the 's'. Comfortable with it, forms a decent half c when seen upside down. Just a bit confused about the connector AFTER it. Seems to put the next letter a bit closer.
The 'x'. Found a half way stroke that seems to work for me for the hairline in it. Not really ideal, as it does not match the rest of the letters, but the x is not falling over. Frustrated, after filling 3 pages with x and not able to find the correct way.
Submitted for your comments.
Regards,
Vipul
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@Vipul
You have gotten the shape of the 's' quite right IMO - you just start out with a heavy shade that makes it look a bit off. Ease off on the shade at the very beginning of the shade and it will look much better.
The 'x' looks good but the hairline strokes just go up and end in a blob. They are supposed to turn around like the top part of the 'c' with the blob inside the counter.
The 'o' in 'fox' is beautiful :-)
- Salman
-
@Salman
Hi
Thanks for the prompt reply and clear critique. Have addressed the shade of the 's' and have got it ok, IMHO.
The 'x' - have turned it around, but the hairlines seem.... Kind of weak. Not very happy with the compound curve can and hence tried the inverted c one too. That seems to have come out much better.
Tried the k also. Taking one letter at a time.
Regards
Vipul.
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@Vipul
The second 'x' on the third line is nice. Use that as your model. The 's' still needs work to be consistent.
Feel free to play with the other letters but work on the 'x' and the 's' in groups of 5 for better consistency.
Also, in the first exercise sheet you developed a nice 'f' in the third or fourth attempt. The first couple of them were too heavily shaded. You have gone back to the heavier shades which doesn't look as elegant.
For the next exercise, only show me a group of 'x' and 's' with good consistency (at least 3 good ones out of 5).
- Salman
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@Salman
Hi,
Made two groups of 'x' and 's'. I think I've got the hang of both, but awaiting your comments.
Thanks and regards,
Vipul
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@Vipul
The image upload seems to have been interrupted. I can only see the top part of it and only 3 of the x's.
From what I can see, you do have a good sense of both the 's' and the 'x' now. I can't see the descender part of the 'f'. The second 's' is just perfect. Use that as your model.
Work on the rest of the group now and let me see the assigned words when you are satisfied with them.
- Salman
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@Salman Khattak
Hi Salman,
It has been some time since my last post. I decided to revisit all the groups once again and fix some things which were bothering me. Here are the words for Group 4, I choose the ones I like from multiple practices :)
Katja
EDIT: I had no idea images will be this big and I am not finding delete option to try and sort this out a bit :/
-
@neriah
Katja - this is beautifully done. There isn't anything to 'fix' per se but if you want here are a couple of refinements:
- The 'blobs' of the 's' and 'r' could come a little higher. You have them coming up about a quarter of the way up in the 1st ascender space. They should be about a third of the way up - so just a little higher.
- The descender loop of the 'z' could be a little more delicate if the shaded ended just a tad sooner. It is fine as it is but I think it will match the 'g' better if it was a bit more delicate.
- On occasion, I could see the 'join' at the turn at the base line. This should be 'invisible' in refined work.
Please know that you are now well into the refinement stages of your script. It is now that your personal style will start to show through. Interesting how that works eh?
- Salman
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@Salman Khattak Thank you for the feedback!
I agree with your comments, I only noticed "z" loop but wasn't sure what to do with it. I now see that join you mention, will work on that as well as blobs. I'll post another set of words, I find this refinement to be quite exciting :)
I have one question about ascenders - during the lessons you explain why we write them at 2 times x-height but I am not sure where should they start when you reduce x-height. If following traditional 3:2:3 than it should be half way between 1st and 2nd ascender lines. However, when I do that in smaller x-heights (4 mm) it looks, well, weird. And I am not sure is it just me being used on this lessons or am I doing something wrong?
-
@neriah
In 2:1:2 proportions (like we use here) the non-looped ascenders go as high as the 1st ascender line i.e. double the x-height. In 3:2:3, there is only one ascender and the tall ascenders will go all the way to the top i.e. they will be 2.5 times the x-height. In both cases the 't' and 'd' will be halfway between the top of the tall ascenders and the waist line.
Does this answer your question?
-
@Salman Khattak
Thank you, I understand now. It looked weird to me because I only wrote ascenders to match 3:2:3 proportions while leaving "t" and "d" in 2:1:2
-
@Salman Khattak
Hi,
Took a break from this to get some consistency in my letters. Glad to say, it's working a bit, but will need a lot of refinement.
Here is my today's attempt at Group 4 letters and words. Request your critique.
Regards,
Vipul.
PS. After seeing Katja's work, feeling stupid putting this up. 😋
-
@Vipul
This is just beautiful Vipul. You have developed a lovely script hand. I am sure you can feel the letters flow better from your pen now :-)
The only issues I see are with the 's' and the 'z'. The 'f is nice and delicate now.
- The 's' is almost there. If you take away the blob at the top, you will notice that the reversed 'c' doesn't quite reach the waist line. This is causing the 's' to look a bit weak. Make sure the blob stops at the waist line and allow a slightly heavier start for the reversed 'c' and you will see the difference.
- The 'z' is nicely done - just start the shade of the descender a bit later. In your examples, the shade starts almost before the loop at the base line is finished - this is too early. Start the shade only when you pen has moved below the base line. It will make the 'z' a bit more delicate and attractive.
You are almost there and I am quite happy to see the progress you have made.
- Salman
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@Vipul
I have been following these lessons for bit over a year with a couple of breaks, I think you are doing much better than me :)
-
@neriah
Hi Katja,
Your writing is beautiful. Been following your writing all through......
Really like your work. These words are so beautifully written. Been studying your work and learnt a lot from it.
Vipul
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@Salman
Hi,
Sorry for the delay, but just couldn't sit down the last few days. Just managed this half hour today.
I think I've addressed the issues in 's' and 'z' that you pointed out.
Submitted the words and the sentence for group 4.
Regards,
Vipul
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@Vipul
You are indeed getting there Vipul. However, did you notice all 5 of your 'z's are different?
The 'c-r' join in 'craze' has too much space between the 'c' and the 'r' - this is common. Adjust the exit stroke from the 'c' so this space is filled up i.e. move the 'r' a tad closer to the 'c' so the overall texture is consistent. The same applies to the 'f-r' join. (We are talking minuscule adjustments here.)
The 's' needs more work. Interestingly you make the inverted 'c' stroke quite well in the 'x' - the 's' uses the same stroke. Do you see how these two are different?
Salman
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@Salman Khattak
Hi,
Thanks for your prompt feedback. Delay in resubmission on my part is regretted, but it was due to my last 303 giving up on me. :(
Submitted are the letters and words within your pointers incorporated.
Awaiting your feedback
Regards
Vipul
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@Salman Khattak
Hi,
Thought I'll have another go at the group 4 letters and words. The one written earlier had spacing and joinery issues in my perception. Tried to improve there....
Have included the word 'energy'. Found consistent spacing very tricky with it. Think have managed to hack it.
However, I have noticed that with the shape 'r', due to the thin hairline upstroke, it created a visual gap, especially when it follows the rounded letters like 'c' or 'e'. Tried to squeeze it in by having a slightly steeper entry stroke, but not sure if it balances. Request suggestions on that aspect.
Also, when writing a sentence which goes into 2-3 lines, how do we deal with intra-line spacing, especially with ascenders and decenders in conflict; like 'z' and 'k' here. What considerations should go in taking this spacing, since too much and the whole thing becomes disjoint, and too little leads to clashing of letters? I tried to write the same using your guidelines, but on plain paper so that the lines don't effect the visual impact of the whole thing. Any suggestions there, on the spacing?
Regards
Vipul
-
@Vipul
Nice work Vipul. You are almost there. The c-r spacing is nicely dealt with as is the e-r spacing in energy.
The 's' needs more work. The inverted 'c' part is still not quite there. Also, the lower loops of the 'g' and 'y' should be identical width and length.
The shoulder of the 'r' comes down a tad too much in places so watch out for that.
It is o.k. to ignore the baseline lifts at this stage but only when you take care to hit the base line consistently and are able to release the pressure on the nib to zero on the upstroke. You are not quite hitting the baseline consistently - especially the 'c' in the last 'frocks'.
The subject of line spacing is tricky. The traditional 2:1:2 in Copperplate can be stacked end-to-end without looking too spaced out (see examples from The Universal Penman). In Engrosser's script with 3:2:3 spacing, lines do look too far if stacked end-to-end. It looks better if they are overlapped by 1/3rd, i.e. use the same guidelines for the 2:1:2 stacked end-to-end but extend your ascenders and descenders above and below the ascender and descender lines (see examples of the Zanerian Certificate for Engrosser's script). The slight overlap does not cause much 'traffic' and any overlap can usually be ironed out with careful spacing in the 2nd or 3rd draft. You did not expect it to go right on the first go did you? :-)
- Salman
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@Salman Khattak
Hi,
Have written these keeping in mind the points you have brought out.
The spacing, as I understand, has no rules, and depends on your skill to pull off. Another issue that I seem to face is the double letters, especially the double l (LL). Those always seem a bit odd. How does 1 write those? And modification needed in the way we write them. Same for Ss and RR.
Regards,
Vipul
-
@Vipul
Very nice work Vipul. At this point the only letter that is letting your script down is the 's'. The 'c' part is just not right. I am afraid this something you just have to push through.
The descender loop of the 'z' should not be shaded quite as heavily and should be a tad thinner to be more in line with the other descender loops in the script.
Your extra long ascenders and descenders work but the 'f' looks a bit too long - maybe leaving it a little shorter on the descender will do the trick. Also, your ascenders are heavier than the weight of the other strokes in the words. Remember, these have to work together so avoid any 'hot spots'.
Double letters are written as regular letters. There are some creative ligatures you can explore but those would be an exception, not the rule. Do you have a copy of The Universal Penman? If not, you will do well to get your hands on one - it is an invaluable resource for study and inspiration.
- Salman
-
@Salman Khattak
Sorry for the delay in posting. Ordered the universal penman.
Submitted here my latest attempt.
Regards
Vipul
-
@Vipul
Vipul - there isn't much structure wise that we have not covered already. The new development is that the shade of the 'r' is now encroaching inside the counter space - this was not happening before.
The 's' and the 'x' still need more work.
The shades need to be even. The first stroke in the 'n' is heavier than the second in the last 'snow'. Also, the long strokes are generally heavier than the rest of the writing.
Lets move on to the last exercise of writing the quotation with these issues in mind.
- Salman
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@Salman Khattak
Hi,
Sorry for the long delay in replying. Went back to basics and addressed the thicker long strokes and uneven thickness of the shades.
Wrote the quote, though the nib is going, so there is a bit of issue in the writing.
Still, putting this up for your review. Still working on the basics....
Regards
Vipul
-
@Vipul
Nice to see your post Vipul. We concentrate so much on improvements during the learning phase that we often forget to realize how far we have come.
This is fine work with only a couple of refinements needed.
- the main stroke of the 'f' should come down all the way to the 1st descender line.
- spacing is off in places e.g. the 'n-l' spacing in 'only' is much wider than the rest of the letters. You will notice that the exit stroke of the 'n' is joining the 'l' quite hight up. This seems to be a trend as the same thing is happening in 'i-l' in 'still'.
- the 's' still needs work. This letters seems to be your nemesis.
- remember to square off the bottoms too e.t. the first stroke of 'n'.
- word spacing should be consistent - it varies too much from word to word, especially in the second line.
I will be looking forward to your next attempt.
- Salman
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@Salman Khattak
Hi,
I think I got the error I was making when forming the 's'. Please do look at them here.
The squaring off of 'w' in 'slow' is bad and I know the a-f spacing as well as the f slope is out in afraid, but was thrown off by new holder ;D ;D
For some reason, the ink is blotting and hence the letters are not crisp.
However, I have worked towards reducing the thickness of my writing. Not sure if its enough, but its difficult to reduce and still maintain an even pressure. Still, submitted for your critique.
Regards,
Vipul
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@Salman
Hi,
Like I said earlier, was trying to write with narrow shades, against the thicker ones I've been using so along.
Tried both the ways today. Not sure which is better. Probably due to the way I've been writing all along.
Will really like your feedback on these.
Regards,
Vipul.
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@Vipul
Congratulations Vipul. You have achieved good control of the pen and can execute Copperplate well. Thank you for sticking with it. I know I have been hard on you at times but it was only because I felt you could do better. I am glad to see I wasn't wrong :-)
BTW - the loop of the 'f' should be drawn such that it looks like and extension of the entry hairline. Yours are coming far too low at times :-)
I prefer the look of the lighter shades but it is your script and you should execute it as you like.
It was good to have you here. Of course you are welcome to post your work for feedback whenever you want. I will start a new thread for general feedback shortly.
- Salman
-
@Salman Khattak
Thanks a lot for teaching me the basics of this. I know it's only been about 7 months and I still have a long way to go.
Realise I need a lot more practice, so guess I'll keep bothering you for your opinion.
Looking forward to your Majuscule tutorial.
Regards,
Vipul.
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@Salman Khattak
Hi Salman,
Here is my first attempt at group 4. I watched your video a few time before I started and it was really helpful.
The s & x where hard to keep on slant, but I think I got there. I thought I may struggle with the f but the video was very useful, watching how it was done also help me with my y and g too. (I will post in group 3 later I would like you to see the improvement).
The r is a funny little thing, a little challenging, but I enjoy a challenge.
Hope you have had a good weekend and I look forward to your critique.
Diane
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@Salman Khattak
Hi Salman,
Having watched the video few more times I can see I need to change quite a bit on my first attempt at this group (above) but I will wait for your feedback before re-post.
Diane
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@Diane Bennett
Diane - this is a good start with nice letter forms. It seems to me a few tweaks here and there are all that are needed.
1. The loop of the 'f' is essentially and upside down 'j' stroke. If you turn the page upside down, you will see that it joins back a bit too high. It should join the main stroke a little bit above the point where the entry hairline joins it giving the impression that the loop is an extension of the entry hairline.
2. The entry hairline of the 'r' should match the slant after about mid x-height. This will close up the wide open base a bit. The shoulder of the 'r' should not be as pointy - smooth out that transition a bit.
3. Your upside down 'c' in the 'x' and the 's' is a bit too upright. This is just a matter of practice once you start to see it.
4. The usual rules of uniform slant and weight apply.
I will be looking forward to your next attempt.
- Salman
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@Salman Khattak
Hello Salman,
I have attached my latest practice. I tried to tweek the points you made in your previous feedback, but I feel I'm regressing on this set. Practice for the past few days has been frustrating and think I need a little help on where I am going wrong.
I look forward to your comments.
Regards
Diane
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Hi @Salman Khattak,
I got caught up with some things so it took a while for this update to happen. I was working on your suggestions and revisiting some basics.
Looking forward to your feedback!
-
@Salman Khattak
Hello Salman,
I have attached my latest practice. I tried to tweek the points you made in your previous feedback, but I feel I'm regressing on this set. Practice for the past few days has been frustrating and think I need a little help on where I am going wrong.
I look forward to your comments.
Regards
Diane
@Diane Bennett
There isn't much wrong with this exercise except rhythm. It does look like you aren't feeling the script here. It might be wise to put things on the back burner for a few days. Come back to it when you feel like it. I had a very similar block when I was learning Copperplate.
Here are a couple of pointers for when you get back to it.
1. The shade of the 'r' should start at the shoulder, i.e. the line from the waist line to the rounded shoulder should be a hairline.
2. The shades on both stroke of the 'z' should come to a hairline a little bit before reaching the bottom part.
3. The 'blob' of the 's' and the 'r' should be aligned with the hairline. Yours are leaning to the right, especially on the 's'.
- Salman
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@neriah
Katja - this is good work. I am quite pleased with the flow and the structure. The spacing in 'program' is nicely judged with the exception of the second stroke of the 'p'. The 's' in 'stork' is very well done.
Please go ahead and write the 'do not be afraid....' phrase. I am looking for a balanced composition, good consistent spacing, regular slant and good structure for the letters.
I will be looking forward to your attempt.
- Salman
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@Salman Khattak
Hi Salman,
Thank you for the previous feedback. I did put practice on hold for a couple of days as I was just frustrating myself, I'm am my own worse critic and realise I was striving for something I just wasn't going to achieve. I did some fun thing instead so still practiced, I made some dinner party invitations which gave me the lift I needed as they turned our really nice.
I have attached my latest practice set which I feel happier about, but still need to work on consistency.
I look forward to your comments.
Diane
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Hi @Salman Khattak,
Here is my attempt. I did it as a finished piece of sorts on Canson Montval paper with W&N sky blue gouache. Then I browsed trough the thread and noticed other people posted attempts on the guidelines so I did one more attempt this morning. I am uploading both.
Looking forward to your feedback!
Katja
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@Salman Khattak
Hi Salman,
Thank you for the previous feedback. I did put practice on hold for a couple of days as I was just frustrating myself, I'm am my own worse critic and realise I was striving for something I just wasn't going to achieve. I did some fun thing instead so still practiced, I made some dinner party invitations which gave me the lift I needed as they turned our really nice.
I have attached my latest practice set which I feel happier about, but still need to work on consistency.
I look forward to your comments.
Diane
@Diane Bennett
Diane - this is good work. The only issue I see is consistency.
The upside down 'c' in the 'x' and the 's' should be the same (it looks narrower in the 'x'). You seem to be struggling with turning this stroke back in at the base line. Just needs focused practice.
The slant is varying a bit. Move the paper around as you write as well as keep the slit in the nib aligned with the slant guides on the paper (do this by rotating the paper, not your hand).
There will always be room for improvement but that is no cause for frustration. I quote my teacher's words: Success is a journey. Look at how far you have come - don't get frustrated by the mistakes.
- Salman
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@neriah
Very nicely done Katja. Did you find writing the sentence more challenging than words? (It doesn't look like it :-) I love the finished piece in gouache.
Now, only because I know you are quite capable of it, I would like to see one more attempt at it with the following in mind:
- Consistency of size: See the bowl of the first 'b' - now compare it to the 'o' in 'not'. See the difference in size?
- Consistency of spacing: compare the spacing in 'be' and 'not', in 'only' and 'still'. If you cut and paste these words next to each other, do they still look like they are from the same composition?
The topic of composition is beyond the scope of this tutorial but some of the basics are simple enough. What do you say - care for another try?
Salman
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@Salman Khattak
Thank you Salman!
It didn’t feel like it is more challenging but I do find it hard to keep it consistent. With words it is easier because I do a few attempts and it is usually enough for me to understand how it should be spaced. With sentence it didn’t work that way because even if I work on a single word and can do it properly it isn’t reflected when writing it out in a sentence because there is so much going on before and after it. For example, “only” was my biggest issue here and even though I could write it as a word it rarely comes out good in a sentence. If that one is good, something else ends up wrong.
I agree with your remarks, this is something I tried to work on multiple times but I feel like one imperfect stroke is enough to throw everything of the balance. To be honest, I got frustrated with it many times in the past when trying to do finished pieces as gifts for friends and family.
Always ready for the next try :)
It may take me a bit longer, I’ll try not to hurry and address all inconsistencies.
Katja
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@neriah
Don't write words, just a series of strokes that make up letters. You will make a lot of spelling mistakes this way but the consistency will improve on all fronts.
One of the main reasons for breaking up my lessons into strokes is to develop this way of looking at script. It is inevitable for our minds to wander but we should try to focus most of the attention on the strokes and not think of writing as letters or words - it sounds strange but it works. In time, this will become second nature.
S.
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@Salman Khattak
Hi Salman
Hope you are well. Sorry it's taken so long to post.
I have attached my latest practice and look forward to your feedback.
Diane
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@Diane Bennett
Diane - your script is pretty much there. Only a few refinements here and there and you are all set to produce a good level of Copperplate.
Firstly, I think you should rotate the paper counter clockwise (yes even more!) - the longer strokes seem to be fighting to stand up causing a bit of tension in the execution. I get a sense of it in this example.
The shade of the 'o' starts too early - just an eighth of the x-height lower would be lovely.
The rounded tops of the 'f' should be a bit pointier - this will cause the widest part to be around the 1st ascender line and the entry back to the main stroke would be flatter.
The upside down 'c' in 'x' is much better executed than the one in 's'. This is often the case but is easy enough to fix as you know you can draw the stroke now :-)
Let's give it another go.
- Salman
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Hi @Salman Khattak,
Thinking about strokes instead of letters did indeed help. However, I still find it impossible to write this sentence without mistakes. I am attaching my favourite attempt. I think it looks okay as a piece if you don't stare at every letter individually :)
Looking forward to your feedback!
Katja
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@neriah
This is good work Katja. The goal is never to write with mechanical precision but to produce beautifully balanced lines of text. You have done that here. I really like how you have maintained the light weight of the shaded stroke and avoided any hot spots due to tight spacing or heavier pressure.
There is no excuse for the crossbar of that last 't' to go downhill like that but we'll ignore that for now :-)
Congratulations. You have completed the minuscules lessons in Copperplate. I can see that you now have the ability to judge spacing and letter shapes well. I trust the skills you now possess will serve you well as you explore other styles of writing Copperplate and perhaps Engrosser's Script.
Please feel free to ask any questions you might have in the thread I have created for this purpose.
Stay in touch.
- Salman
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@Salman Khattak thank you so much for helping me get there, I would never be able to do this on my own!
I somehow missed that crossbar on 't'. If something like that happens to me on a better quality paper I carefully scrape it off with a scalpel and do a proper one :)
I have many ideas for finished pieces and want to learn even more about both, Copperplate and Engrosser's. Will definitely post in the general feedback thread.
Thank you!
Katja
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@Salman Khattak
Hello Salman
For the first time in years we have had glorious weather in the U.K. It doesn't happen often so have to make the most of it, hence the lack of posts.
Back to reality now with rain so getting much more practice done.
From your previous feedback I had notice that something was wrong with the O but couldn't see it until you pointed it out so have worked on that. Tried to make the F more pointed, still needs work I think.
As for the backward C well the less said the better, but I am studying this and will get it.
Hope all is well and you are having a good summer.
I look forward to your reply.
Regards
Diane
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@Salman Khattak
Hi Salman you seem to have missed my post.
Diane
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@Diane Bennett
So sorry Diane. I believe I did write a reply but must have forgotten to press 'send'. I am sorry for missing that.
Your script is almost there but needs just a few minor adjustments.
- The loop of the 'f' has it's belly way too low. It should be widest around the 1st ascender line. This is quite like the descender of a 'y' being widest at the 1st descender. The difference is that it joins back below the waist line where a descender joins closer to the base line.
- The 's' needs more work. The upside down 'c' in the second one is a bit better but could be improved. Also, the exit hairline from the 's' should not move so far to the right along the baseline. Do you see it cramping up the 'k' in 'risk' and impaling the 't' in 'stork'?
- Take the exit hairline of the 'c' up in one stroke to where it needs to join. In the 'craze' it should have gone all the way up to the waist line. You can always come back to do the top part later.
- Are you stopping at the base line? The exit of the 'r's seem to run away a little bit - this is most likely due to the speed at which you turn at he base line. Stop there, lift your pen up a tiny bit and the draw the exit hairline.
Let's see another attempt at these words.
- Salman
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@Salman Khattak
Hi Salman, I hope you are well. It's been a while since I last posted. Frustration got the better of me and after a few snapped pens and a couple of tantrums, I decided it best to put my remaining pens away for a while.
I started to practice again a couple of weeks ago, and I now feel I have something to post.
I'm still not happy with the S and F, but I feel they are better than I have been doing so hope you can give me a few pointer as to what I can do to improve them.
I look forward to your critique.
Regards
Diane
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@Diane Bennett
Hi Diane - it is so good to see you back here. I was wondering if you had had enough of Copperplate.
It is awesome to see your first post after the break showing a significant improvement over the last one. Your 'f' is pretty much on target. The 's' is almost there too - it is well balanced except for the part that meets the base line. Let the stroke move a little bit more to the left before touching the baseline (without changing the rest of it) and it will be much better balanced. You have done that in the 's' in 'stork' beautifully - it is o.k. to overshoot it a few times before you get the balance right. We are not supposed to get it right every time so give yourself permission to not be perfect :-)
The shoulder of the 'r' could be a bit softer - there is a version of this 'r' with a pointed shoulder used in Engrosser's script but I feel like a slightly rounded shoulder works better for the slightly less strict version we are using here.
Your 'o's could be a bit thinner too - the one in 'fox' is a good example. It will make the 'a' a bit thinner too making it work better IMO. For example, the 'a' and the 'e' in 'craze' should be a bit closer in widths - the 'c' and the 'a' are bit too wide, the 'e' is good.
I will be looking forward to the next one.
- Salman
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@Salman Khattak
Hello Salman,
Thank you for your previous feedback, it was very encouraging for me as I felt I had made little progress.
I have been working mainly on the S and R as per your feedback. I made the adjustments you suggested, but I found I was reverting back to the "hard shoulder" on the R. The S I think I have managed.
One thing I have noted after posting is I am off slant quite a bit, which I will rectify.
I look forward to your views.
Kind regards
Diane
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@Diane Bennett
Very nicely done Diane. The 'r' is much improved - the one in 'risk' looks great. There is a tendency to make the second stroke slant a bit more so watch out for that (also on the second stroke of the 'k'). I am happy with the 's' too.
Let's move on to the sentence. Remember, you are planning the whole layout now so consistent spacing between the words also becomes important. Have fun with it - feel free to come up with a creative layout if you feel like it.
- Salman
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Oh, my! First post in Group 4. I must be dreaming. Did I really make it this far?
Okay, this is my first practice sheet of words, rather than letters. I know I have a long ways to go, but let the journey begin!
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UGH! Salman, please don’t even bother commenting on that first posting of mine in this group. It’s beyond awful. I can see tons of glaring errors, and I’m working on all the letters individually. I’m not ready to do words yet. I would delete that post if I could. Give me another week to get some serious practice under my belt. This is too embarrassing for words. :-[
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@NevadaDeb
There is plenty good in your work above Debi. It is great that you are holding yourself to a high standard but don't discount the progress you have made :-)
I will be looking forward to your next attempt.
- Salman
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Salman, thank you so much! I really jumped the gun with my first post, well before I was ready. I've now spent considerable time on each letter, and feel I'm somewhat ready to post words again.
I have to give a big Group 4 Shout-Out to your "grad student," Vipul, who jumped in to help me with the basic letters in this group. He reiterated everything you have shared, helped me see my glaring errors, and also gave me specific resources to study (Zanerian Manual, etc.) for each letter and problem area. It saved me so much time, and I am deeply grateful for his tutoring. Nothing like "Grad Students" helping "Freshmen Students" by paying it forward, and stepping in when they see someone floundering, to get them back on track!
Here is what should have been my first pass at these letterforms. I can certainly see room for improvement, but I also see progress from the previous post, that abject disaster which will haunt me forever. Hah!
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Hi Salman,
In studying the ‘f,’ and how to use it both as the first letter of a word, and with a letter preceeding it, I went to your video with the “misfit” letters of Group 4. You answered a question I had regarding how to best space the blob when the ‘f’ is not the first letter of the word. It was very helpful, and since I have seen many other of your students struggle with this as well, I thought I would bring your response from the You Tube video here to the Group 4 tutorial, and also ask for your input on the examples I have attempted to make, and which, if any, seem the best to use when ‘f’ is not used as the first letter of the word.
Your You Tube response to my question was:
________________________________________________________________________________
“The exit hairline in this style of ‘f’ is indeed a bit of a problem in that it creates a hot spot on the left side of the shaded stroke. I try to make it as close to the left side of an ‘f’ as possible, but it is quite okay to go over the entry hairline into the ‘f.’ “
________________________________________________________________________________
I’ve been trying to see just where the blob would fit in best, or if it’s acceptable to not even use the blob in some cases.
Here is how I interpreted the information, and the different possibilities using this particular style of ‘f.’
Thank you in advance for responding and clarifying this for me!
Debi
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@NevadaDeb
Debi - you have taken to this group of letters quite quickly. Very good work. Your notes on the exercise are spot on - if a bit too harsh at times :-)
Your letters structure is quite good. The next step is consistency. It looks like you are trying to make the 'o's a bit too narrow - let them breathe a little. The 'a' in your 'f' examples is good. Having such a narrow 'o' forces other letters like the 'r' and 'n' to be quite narrow which is hard to do resulting in an accordion like texture. For example, both examples of 'risk' have more relaxed spacing than say 'faxed'. The general rule for an 'o' is to be half the width of the height - this gives a pleasant looking shape that works well with the proportions of other letters.
As for the 'f' - all options would work in various places. I tend to make the entry hairline into the 'f' a bit higher (as if I'm going to make an 'i-n' join) this makes me me join the 'f' a bit higher but allows room for the 'blob'. In the last 'afr' I would put a light blob in the space after the 'a'.
- Salman
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Salman,
Thank you so much for your detailed explanation and suggestions. I have been practicing all day, (with breaks, of course!) and here is my last practice sheet. I have done a self-assessment, and hope I have covered all the issues I see. I will continue to try for consistency and refinement. Your advice is so incredibly helpful!
I have found it helps me to start out my day going through each group, and warming up with each group’s letterforms. Then, I start on Group 4. I do see some progress, and that is thrilling. But I also see that I have a long way to go to become consistent, and for my letterforms to start to “sing.”
It’s sure a wonderful journey, and I’m savoring every moment.
Thank you again!
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@NevadaDeb
You do a very detailed analysis of your work - the things you are picking up show your experience and deep understanding of lettering. It is really cool to see - I really enjoy studying your exercise sheets.
May I suggest taking a small step back for a little bit though? There are a couple of letters that can use a bit of refinement.
The first is the 'r' - the whole of the blob on the 'r' and the 's' should be above the waist line. This will give you space to move the shoulder of the 'r' to about a 1/4 of the x-height below the waist line. It is far too low in the example above.
You can let the bottom part of the 's' go a bit more to the left - it is o.k. to have the finishing dot overlap or even be on the left side of the entry hairline.
The closing stroke in the loop of the 'f' is too heavy. Make it as a hairline for now and look for the nice almond shape of the 'j' stroke - speaking of which, the loops on the 'g' and are bit too round in the bottom part. The closing stroke of the 'e' is getting a bit heavy too.
The second 'c' in the 'x' works out better if you let the belly fall a bit below mid x-height. Since the max weight of the upside down 'c' is above mid x-height, this will give you room to tuck the second 'c' under it a bit without having to touch the two and risk ink bleeding into the hairline. I hope this makes sense :-)
I will be looking forward to the next one.
- Salman
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Wow, Salman! Just, WOW!
You gave me a half dozen fantastic tips to make my letters dance without stumbling. These are the very issues I have been stumbling on, and exactly what I needed right now. Vipul also noted these earlier this morning, and I feel like my practice sessions are no longer simply repetitions of errors, but actual refinement. This is EXCITING STUFF!
I LOVE your explanation of the second stroke of the ‘x’ tucking under the belly of the upside-down ‘c,’ and that’s such a visual hint that makes absolute sense to me. Yes! YESSSS!
I’ll be working on the six areas you noted for me:
*The ‘r’ blob above the waistline.
*The shoulder of the ‘r’ at 1/4 of the x-height.
*Reduction of the steepness of the ‘r.’
*Making the closing loop of the ‘f’ less heavy, and instead, making it a hairline and keeping the almond shape.
*Lightening up on the closing stroke of the ‘e.’ How did I let that get so sloppy?! Yikes.
*Making the loop of the ‘g’ less round. Another sloppy error. Double Yikes!
These are fantastic tips I will be working on today, tomorrow, and hope to soon have better examples to show.
Thank you SO MUCH for your detailed suggestions. I’m getting to work on them right now.
YOWZA!
Debi
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Hi Salman,
I seem to be having lots of issues trying to get the sentence spaced properly. I have looked back at others work in the tutorial to try to work it out. I even tried how my granddaughter does it (she started school last year and use Finger Space). I tried using guidelines with lots of vertical lines,
all to no avail.
I am posting this attempt hoping you can offer some advice on how to get it spaced. I am at a loss trying to figure it out.
I look forward to your reply.
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Hi Salman,
This is today’s practice. I’m still working on the issues with shape of the ‘s,’ and think I’m doing better with the X’s, and failing miserably with the Z’s, with the waistline loop all over the place, and no two the same. Changed my nib, and should be doing this practice sheet over before posting, but no time to do that. So apologies for the sloppiness!
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Salman, I feel like I’m hitting a brick wall. I’ve done some more words, and hope that you can help me hone in on the major problem areas. I’m just not SEEING it as I should, and I know I should be able to see it now. I could use a fresh set of eyes, and a bit of guidance. I feel I’m lost in the woods, and going around in circles.
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@Salman Khattak
Hi Salman,
I gave the spacing another go. This time to get the word spacing I wrote a word, lifted my pen at the exit stroke then did an overturn without pen on paper to get the start of the next word.
Sorry about the messy assenders and decenders, I was concentrating on the spacing.
I think this looks more evenly spaced than my other attempt, but I shall await your verdict.
Kind regards
Diane
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Hi Salman,
Could you clarify something for me, regarding the ‘s’? I’m not sure I’m interpreting your instructions correctly. I can interpret it two different ways.
You wrote that “The shaded stroke in the ‘c’ is heaviest just below the midpoint of the x-height. This means that the heaviest weight of the upside down ‘c’ as used in an ‘s’ would be just above the midpoint of the x-height. This last point is important as putting the weight at or below the midpoint will make your ‘s’ visually dissimilar in slant to the other letters.”
When we’re looking at the ‘s,’ as an ‘s’ and not an upside-down ‘c,’ where is the weight—above or below the midpoint?
I’m looking at your ‘s,’ and I see that the weight is below the midpoint. I turn it upside down, and I see the weight is above the midpoint. I can interpret your instructions two different ways. I’m not sure which you mean. Where is the weight of the shade when look at the ‘s’ as an ‘s,’ and not an upside down ‘c’?
This is probably obvious to everyone but me, and I sincerely apologize for being “muddy headed.” I just want to be absolutely certain of what I’m shooting for.
Thank you in advance for your clarification!
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@NevadaDeb
Oh the pesky "s". I feel your pain lol.. I too struggled with this one, sorry I can't give you any words of wisdom on how to fix it. But, don't be to hard on yourself, it will all fall into place.
I drove myself crazy and snapped a few pens throwing hissy fits, then completely out of the blue I did it, I don't know how or who was guiding my pen, but it happened. Take a break, look back at how much you have progressed, and it will come.
Your work and progress up to now is amazing, it is something we all forget.
Regards
Diane
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Diane, I thank you for your encouragement and sharing your “AHA!” Moment! I have one of your practice pieces up on the wall in front of my calligraphy table to inspire me.
Thank you again! Salman has such marvelous, giving and sharing students.
Gratefully,
Debi
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This morning’s practice. I can still see some problem areas:
—I know the word spacing between ‘of’ and ‘shade’ is a little tight.
— The ‘s’ and ‘i’ in risk are a bit close together, as is the ‘r’ and ‘a’ in craze, the ‘s’ and ‘i’ in size, and the ‘s’ and ‘o’ and ‘a’ and ‘I’ in ‘spacing’.
—The ‘e’ and ‘i’ in weight is also too tight.
—And ‘shade’ could be stretched out a bit—it’s too cramped.
Still, I’m seeing major improvement, and I’m sure enjoying the Group 4 letters and words. I’ll keep practicing!
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Oh my gosh, I just realized I missed the blob on ‘fox.’ Yikes! I don’t know how I missed that. I had problems with the exit hairline, so I was doing that before I went back and put the blob on the ‘f’s. i totally forgot to do it! Hahh. I’m such an airhead.
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Working on spacing, weight of shade, and slant. Trying to open up the letters a bit more so they aren’t so crowded.
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Oops! It didn’t attach. Trying again. Working on spacing, slant, weight of shade, and opening up words so the letters aren’t so crowded. Working on rhythm, entrance and exit strokes.
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I wanted to share something that seems to be helping me. I’ve been struggling with spacing issues, both between words and between letters. I don’t see it as I’m working close up on them, but as soon as I sit back, they glare at me. Perhaps I’m hunched over too closely to the paper, but having some eyesight problems negates the ability of sitting up with good posture and lettering. I have to rely on building a memory for the areas of concern.
As an animal trainer, I went back to my behavioral roots and decided to try “backchaining” words. This is where you take any behavior, start at the last step, and learn it from the last step to the first, the ending to the beginning.
So I took the word “stork” and broke it down into the 5 letters. I practiced the last letter first, then the next to the last, and so on until I had added the entire word.
By doing this, I began to get some consistency, and I’ve found it very helpful. I don’t know if it was worth mentioning or not, but I am pleased with the progress it has helped me make on a few problems I simply could not seem to overcome otherwise.
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@NevadaDeb
Spacing has always been an issue with me so I am going to give this a try. I will let you know how I get on.
Diane
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Diane, how is your spacing coming? I’m struggling with it, too. Sometimes I’m going along, thinking I really have it, only to look back when I’m not so close to the practice sheet, and see that it’s still not all that consistent in places. It’s good to know I’m not alone in struggling a bit with this issue!
Warmly, Debi
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@NevadaDeb
Hi Debi,
I am still struggling with spacing. Like you it looks ok at a glance, but closer inspection shows many inconsistencies, the only time it looks good is when I take my glasses off lol.
It usually takes me a while to get it right so I'm not stressing about it, it will come in time.
At the moment I'm doing sets of five underturns and overturns, but joining them and this has helped a little.
I suppose as with everything we learn it's down to practice, and I haven't been able to do much in the last couple of months, I work in accountancy and from November to the end of January it's silly season here in the U.K. as tax returns have to be filed. Now the madness is over and work has eased off I can concentrate again.
Keep going, we will get there.
Take care
Diane
PS. Take a look at the copperplate challenge thread, it has some useful information regarding spacing.
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Hi Diane!
I really enjoy your responses. I can’t imagine how busy you must have been during tax season. Here’s hoping you now have time to enjoy some calligraphy practice and still get a full night’s sleep!
I did check out the Calligraphy Challenge you suggested, and I love the exercise Salman put up, of covering the top half of the words “ice,” “lit,” and “tie” to see if the bottom halves are consistent. That was indeed an eye opener!
However, I didn’t see anything about word spacing, per se, there. I did scout around some more, and came upon a great thread which I cannot find again, so I don’t know where I found it. But the thread title was “Copperplate Script Practice,” and the member was AshK on December 16, 2017. AshK uploaded several sheets of lovely work, and asked for feedback and help with refining. Salman gave fantastic advice on individual letters.
Forum member Jean Wilson gave advice on spacing between words — and that’s what I wanted to share with you. She linked to her blog, and showed the Ashk’s piece with spacing corrections, which I found extremely helpful. The link to her blog where I found her response is nibsandink.blogspot.com . She uses a minuscule “i” as her guide for spacing between words.
I’m going to be trying that as I work on the “Be not afraid...” piece. Thank you again for your encouragement, and I hope you are now enjoying that calligraphy time you so rightfully deserve after tax season.
Warmly,
Debi
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My first posting of “be not afraid.” It’s a start, but still see problems, especially in the upright ‘d’s, and the upright ‘y.’ Yet, I see SOME progress. I’m just not where I hoped I’d be by now. Consistency is still a struggle, and there are no graceful words yet. i get more flow when I write freely, not worrying about the letterforms, but then, the letterforms are horrid. So this is a compromise. Clunky.
I must remember (since I’m getting tired of writing this particular quote now!) ...”in time, the grass becomes milk.’
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I'm flattered that someone remembered my post on word spacing. Also - happy to have another opportunity to remind people that when you practice your word spacing from the very beginning, you will not have to un-learn bad habits.
I found the thread with the previous discussion.
Here is a link if you want to look at the entire thread:
https://theflourishforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=6043.msg73082#msg73082
This is just my portion of the thread and the link:
Salman will have to weigh in on the actual letterforms. I am happy to talk about the amount of space between words since most people leave a bit more than what you see in traditional samples of writing. My scans are too big to post to the forum, so I have put them on my nibs.and.ink blog. It is a blog I use to communicate with people about topics that come up either in classes or on the forum. It is a real hodgepodge of information, but useful for posting images.
I think the examples and comments will be self explanatory.
https://nibsandink.blogspot.com/2017/12/word-spacing.html
I guess I do have another suggestion. If you find an example of work off the IAMPETH website that is perfect in every way, you might enjoy tracing it once and then try reproducing it exactly as it is written without tracing. The tracing will give you a bit of muscle memory which usually makes the non-traced version nearly perfect. There is something very satisfying about creating a duplicate of something that looks way beyond your skill level. Focusing on every single detail can be eye-opening.
The sample I chose has lighter weight shades than your work. You can adjust the weight if you only like the heavier weight. Down the road, you will probably want to be able to write in a variety of weights and slants. I think the degree of slant on the sample is different from yours.
Your work is very impressive. Going through the lessons that Salman offers would most likely resolve any of the minor issues that you are having.
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Jean Wilson!
A thousand thank you’s for adding your words of wisdom to this tutorial. What an absolute THRILL to see your name and face pop up here. I feel like I just received an autographed Mickey Mantle baseball card!
I can’t thank you enough for taking the time to help us with spacing problems. It’s enormously helpful, and so very kind of you to share such a cohesive post, with all the information so nicely laid out. I have found your posts on The Flourish Forum extremely helpful, with valuable tips that have made my fledgling efforts with the pointed pen much easier. Finding your blog just the other day was a cornucopia of delight, and certainly a grand motivation to keep pushing through the basics, so that one day I will be able to dance with my pen, too. Your work is immensely inspiring.
Thank you again, Jean. You are so thoughtful and kind!
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Gosh - thanks for all the kind words --
I hope people understand that my approach is always - find your own balance between loving the process and appreciating that we are at different places on the bell curve.
There are certainly a ton of people who have more traditional skills than I will ever have.
My niche is finding the best way to be creative and if your skills improve - that is the frosting on the cake.
To me, it is sad when people spend years practicing - but never do an actual project.
Envelopes are the perfect project that gets finished and goes some place.
No matter what your skill level - a pretty envelope will brighten someone's day.
My *fun* blog is this one...
https://pushingtheenvelopes.blogspot.com/
There is a new post every single day. Mostly envelopes.
Today, Mar 2 - the post is about a card shower I organized for a lady who turned 99.
She loved all of her envelopes.
There are 4,000 posts on that blog -- plenty of good ideas -- and W-I-D-E range of skill levels.
Thanks again for the kinds words.
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Jean, you make some very heart-warming points that hit home to me. While I am very diligent about practicing the basics, I reward myself afterwards by doing something that’s just creative and fun, and takes no concentration. I spent several hours on your blog last night (so much for sleep. It’s overrated), and just marveled over the envelopes and how much creativity came alive. I also saw the post about Viola, and spent the next hour following links about Telegrapher’s script and train order operators. What fun!
I just finished a card and envelope for a gentleman named Joe Cuba, who turns 100 in a few days. His wish for his birthday was to receive 100 cards. I’m sure, since it went viral, that he’ll receive thousands. It was great fun practicing my copperplate and combining it with alcohol ink abstract art. Yes, envelopes are highly addictive—and SO enticing!
I want to thank you once again for joining in here to help us on our journey through these basic letterforms, and it’s always a thrill to find encouragement from a Calligraphic Rock Star!
I will be emailing you about other things I found of great interest on your blog — it’s so comprehensive! I don’t want to post things not directly related to Group 4 of Salman’s tutorial, so I’ll say thank you once again, for all the gems of wisdom you have shared. This journey of initial learning is so important, and I feel I need a solid base before anything else. Thank you so much for your invaluable input! I am certain Salman will be smiling when he gets back here, and appreciate that you jumped in to help us with our questions.
Have a lovely weekend!
Warmly,
Debi in Las Vegas (no, I’ve never met Schin, though we live in the same town. But one day, if I ever get past minuscules, I hope to write her a fan letter!)
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Thanks again, Deb.
The blog is a good place to share all the things I have accumulated over the years.
No point in keeping things in files and drawers....
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@Salman Khattak
I have been practicing the spacing, and after reading Joan's blog tried the method and I feel the spacing in the attempt is better.
I look forward to your input.
Diane
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Oh, Diane. The spacing looks very nice to me. Easily readable. I think you did a great job!
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Thanks Debi, I am a lot happier with this one, still a lot to fix especially the ascender and defenders.
Your last attempt looks great, you must be please with the progress.
Regards
Diane
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Hi Diane,
Sorry for the lateness of my response! I think your slant is so consistent, and far, far better than mine. I struggle with that slant constantly, unless I’m using grid paper with lots of slant lines. You are way ahead of me. Keep up the good work!
Debi
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Hi folks, I hope you don't mind if I jump in with a comment. First of all Debi and Diane, I just want to say that it's SO encouraging to watch your progression through these exercises. It can be easy to be blind to our own progress, so I want you to know that from an outside perspective the improvements you've each made are abundantly evident. :) I am learning Copperplate as well and have taken to heart many of the philosophies and techniques from this tutorial. With that said, I AM still learning, so please know that I don't profess to be at anything higher than an intermediate level (when I'm feeling confident, at that!).
Debi, regarding your slant issues I have an idea. I know Salman has ideas he's touched on for slant problems as well, like paper position in order to make the right muscle habits. I've found that helped me a LOT and I don't have to rely on the lines as much. However, in your case I've noticed several times in your examples the way you interact with the slant lines: your slant often becomes better in conjunction to proximity of the line, unfortunately, your spacing changes. I don't think the spacing is as much of an issue lately, but it used to be (in my estimations) that you would often crowd yourself in order to accommodate the line; as if it were a hard stop, or a period, that you really wanted to fit your sentence into. In other words you sometimes start compressing your letters when you're coming up on a slant line. Have you tried using a lighter slant line in your guidelines? Maybe just 30% or so to see if that affects any unconscious habits you have. This is a purely visual change, but we do make adjustments in our everyday writing in order to accommodate the space that we "see" that we have. Maybe it will be easier to use as the intermittent reference it should be, rather than the law of the letters immediately adjacent to it. Does that make sense? I can try explaining another way if you're interested. At any rate, if you feel I'm speaking out of turn please let me know and disregard this advice, or if you just don't think it applies to your situation. Again, I really value watching the progress and learning process of other people on the same journey I am, so this idea is intended with utmost respect.
Happy Practicing,
Kristin
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Hi Kristin!
Thanks So much for jumping in. It’s always great to get another person’s perspective on the problems I’m having, and I appreciate your take on the slant issues. I do realize I start to cramp the letters, but I never noticed that it might be an unconscious thought that the slant line is coming up. Wow! Astute observation!! I’ll give your suggestion a try, and now that I’m aware that I’m doing this, I’ll try to relax more and not let my letters cramp up and become so upright. Great idea, and I thank you so much! Please, don’t hold back your thoughts and comments. There is no ‘them’ and ‘us.’ There is just us, and we’re all trying to learn. When we can reach out and help someone else, that extra set of eyes is a terrific help.
Thank you again!
Debi
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Diane, Thank you for the idea of lighter slant lines, to see it if tricks my brain into relaxing, and not cramping up the letters so closely when I get near the slant. Here’s my try. I made other mistakes, but I think in general, the idea worked well! The slant looks more consistent and a bit more relaxed to me.
Even if other elements are still wonky. *grin*
Thank you again for the great idea!
Debi
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Sorry Debi, but in the words of Shaggy "it wasn't me" ;D lol..
The idea of the slant lines came from Kristin, and what a good idea, it seems to have worked for you.
I tend to turn my page, a tip I got from Salman, I also had a sheet with slant lines every 8 mm which helped, but I didn't want to start relying on it so used it until I was happier with the slant.
Happy penning
Diane
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Dear Diane,
Please label me “DUH!” That was indeed meant for Kristin. I was just writing while thinking of you and the spacing, and how much your latest practice sheet had improved. Sheesh, I’m such an airhead. I’d like to blame it all on autocorrect, but I can’t. Hah! SORRRRY!
And Sorry, Kristin!
Scatterbrained Debi in Las Vegas.
It’s all the the neon lights. I’m sure they did it...*grin*
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Lol, no worries! Happy penning, ladies!