Author Topic: If you could travel back in time and give yourself advice...  (Read 8487 times)

Offline Marc

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Re: If you could travel back in time and give yourself advice...
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2015, 09:14:52 PM »
Okay, in my wildest dreams I didn't expect you, Schin, to chime in!  Thank you!!  I can feel it... I'm going to gush in this message and make a fool out of myself!

I've watched your amazing videos, of course, and so what you're saying is that you wish your grip was palm-down?  (Is there an official name given to this type of grip?)

But given how fluid your movement is, and your amazing skill (to my eyes your hand is perfect, and in my distant dreams, I'll become 10% of the calligrapher you are! -- okay, there it is, I'm now embarrassing the heck out of myself! LOL!) do you think there's something in particular you'd gain, today, if you were palm-down?  Aren't you essentially proof that a tripod-on-side-of-curled-little-finger grip can work?

Sorry to grill you, but I couldn't miss this chance to ask you that question!

I am holding the oblique palm-down -- it doesn't seem uncomfortable to me, though it's not how I hold a fountain pen, gel, or pencil, and seems like it helps me a bit with pressure control from the tip of the index finger.  But I am at the very beginning of Eleanor Winters, so I really should zip it since I have no idea what I'm talking about here!  LOL!

Offline schin

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Re: If you could travel back in time and give yourself advice...
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2015, 11:54:08 PM »
Haha thanks Marc! And yeah.. I wish I had a more traditional grip, but also in a way where the nib should be parallel to the downstrokes. In this article: http://www.iampeth.com/lesson/demystifying-oblique-penholder
I am definitely Fig. 1B... :( When C should be the correct way. So the detriment of my Fig 1B grip, some of my lettering have a ragged edge because I place more pressure on the right tine than the left... I don't mind it honestly, but I don't like to mislead people to thinking it's correct!

And the detriment of my tripod grip is that I apply pressure using the third finger, and not the index finger. No biggie, but not ideal... it makes more sense to apply pressure with the index finger.

Of course this is my own experience.. I think everyones grips is a personal thing. At the end I think if it works for you, then the end justifies the means... I've seen the master penmen hold their pen so many different ways! However, if I can go back in time I'd be like 'Schin dang it, just hold it properly and don't try to reinvent the wheel!' Looks like you're on the right track though!!! Just be comfortable!
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Offline Ken Fraser

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Re: If you could travel back in time and give yourself advice...
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2015, 06:11:09 PM »
The only thing I would change, would be to adopt the tripod or triangular penhold from the start.

At school in the 1940s we used only dip pens and I developed an early interest in handwriting. I received a Certificate of Merit in a National Handwriting Competition when aged 13 but was never shown correct hand position. I had an unusual crab-like hand grip and it wasn't until later in my teens, that I discovered, from one of the very few books available at the time, that holding the pen in a tripod grip was best. It took a couple of months until my hand went naturally into this position and I remember that it made a huge difference. I have written that way, ever since.

This penhold is advocated by most Calligraphers for good reasons. There are frequent posts from writers suffering hand pain after relatively short spells of writing. It should be, and is, possible to write for long periods with no strain at all. Movement is very flexible, under total control with a very light grip.

Note that the shaft of the pen is positioned up near the large forefinger knuckle, not down in the webbing. Also the first joint of the forefinger is fairly straight and not bent downwards; a sure sign of too much pressure. White knuckles are best avoided.  ;D

After a time, a small callous will develop where the pen rests on the third finger. This should be barely noticeable; otherwise it is a sure sign of the exertion of too much pressure.

I use this penhold for all styles of writing, not just Copperplate.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 06:28:07 PM by Ken Fraser »

Offline Ken Fraser

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Re: If you could travel back in time and give yourself advice...
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2015, 06:42:02 PM »
If you like the Eleanor Winters style of Copperplate, then her book is certainly comprehensive with much detail and examples.

If you prefer the classic, 18th century Copperplate (English Roundhand) then I suggest that all you need is a copy of "The Universal Penman" by George Bickham. Instruction isn't really necessary. Just use common sense and copy what you see. Make enlarged photocopies if necessary and study them in detail. Stroke order and direction is obvious as it only works one way with a flexible nib. Take your time, be very self-critical and it will eventually fall into place. Dr Joe Vitolo's videos are marvellous if you want to study American Engrosser's Script. Whilst it's similar, it's not quite the same as English Roundhand (Copperplate).

I'm self-taught in all the hands, and that is certainly one thing I wouldn't change.

Ken
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 06:44:46 PM by Ken Fraser »

Offline Marc

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Re: If you could travel back in time and give yourself advice...
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2015, 08:26:26 PM »
Thank you so much, Ken, and of course thank you too Schin for your earlier reply!

Loved seeing your grip photos Ken, and what struck me is that my normal handwriting grip (gel pens, pencils, etc.) is identical to yours in the photos, except that my index finger's first knuckle tends to go flat, with my second knuckle raised.  Extending the entire index finger against the pen is something I'd never thought to try, and just now I wrote for a while like that and it feels great!

A bunch of pieces are falling into place.  I watched the Lloyd Reynolds Italics series (amazing, to any who hasn't seen it, and it's freely available on iTunes and YouTube! https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLW0JDyINZu5ekFNPk57HCLEVD5LAdA95S) a while ago and remember his insistence on not flattening out that first knuckle.  For the longest time after that I would try to always keep it raised, effectively arching my index finger, which resulted in only the very tip of my finger instead of the whole fingerprint surface holding the pen in the tripod grip, but this eventually caused uncomfortable pressure at the tip.

Long way of saying... if I flatten the entire finger out I'm wagering there will be a major elimination of fatigue over long practice sessions in Copperplate and just everyday writing too.  That position seems to force the thumb backward, which should produce less overall tension in my hand.  Sorry, I'm rambling a bit here, articulating what feels like a real lightbulb moment for me here, assuming this type of grip will really work for me!  Can't thank you enough!

I will definitely search out Bickham's book, and thanks for that advice too!

Marc

Offline Ken Fraser

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Re: If you could travel back in time and give yourself advice...
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2015, 10:09:01 AM »
  I watched the Lloyd Reynolds Italics series (amazing, to any who hasn't seen it, and it's freely available on iTunes and YouTube! https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLW0JDyINZu5ekFNPk57HCLEVD5LAdA95S) a while ago and remember his insistence on not flattening out that first knuckle. 

I disagree with Lloyd Reynolds instructions regarding hand hold. Although his instructions relate to Italic handwriting, the principle is basically the same for all hands.

He says - "Watch your forefinger, let it be arched at all times" IMO  the forefinger is ideally not arched but practically straight with the merest of curves thereby alleviating hand strain. If the pen is held this way, it's almost impossible to apply too much pressure to the grip. Also, he says "The upper part of the pen rests in the valley between the base knuckles of thumb and forefinger" If the shaft is allowed to slip down into the webbing of the hand, the nib edge is too flat to the paper. If the pen shaft is held up on or just before the large knuckle, the nib meets the paper at the ideal angle.

If you look at my two pictures at the top and middle left, you can see that the straight pen and the oblique pen are held in identical positions and angles to the paper. The flexible nib is required to be held at a lower angle to the paper and this is achieved with the bend upwards of the adjustable metal flange, I use this hand hold with every pen and in every style.

Even worse is the habit of "reverse arch" where the forefinger is bent down almost as though double-jointed. This results in a grip which is far too strong, frequently resulting in discomfort.

Ken
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 10:24:54 AM by Ken Fraser »

Offline AnasaziWrites

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Re: If you could travel back in time and give yourself advice...
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2015, 12:12:43 PM »

I will definitely search out Bickham's book, and thanks for that advice too!

Marc
Just as an aside, this book is readily available on Amazon. If you can find it, the 1941 edition is the best reprint, better than the Dover 1954 and later reprints. The 1941 edition will be more expensive though. Better still, though not inexpensive, is a 1743 printing. The difference is amazing.

Offline Carina_I

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Re: If you could travel back in time and give yourself advice...
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2015, 01:01:30 PM »
If you like the Eleanor Winters style of Copperplate, then her book is certainly comprehensive with much detail and examples.

If you prefer the classic, 18th century Copperplate (English Roundhand) then I suggest that all you need is a copy of "The Universal Penman" by George Bickham. Instruction isn't really necessary. Just use common sense and copy what you see. Make enlarged photocopies if necessary and study them in detail. Stroke order and direction is obvious as it only works one way with a flexible nib. Take your time, be very self-critical and it will eventually fall into place. Dr Joe Vitolo's videos are marvellous if you want to study American Engrosser's Script. Whilst it's similar, it's not quite the same as English Roundhand (Copperplate).

I'm self-taught in all the hands, and that is certainly one thing I wouldn't change.

Ken

I have the Universal Penman! On Google books, anyway. The book is so old it's considered public domain (read: free). I was wondering if I should use this book (Universal Penman) or the Penmanship Made Easy (another public domain book). Do you prefer one over the other?

Offline Ken Fraser

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Re: If you could travel back in time and give yourself advice...
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2015, 06:39:03 PM »
I have the Universal Penman! On Google books, anyway. The book is so old it's considered public domain (read: free). I was wondering if I should use this book (Universal Penman) or the Penmanship Made Easy (another public domain book). Do you prefer one over the other?

"Penmanship Made Easy" was produced a few years before the much more ambitious "Universal Penman" .
 
The U P contains many examples by the greatest Practitioners of the day and is generally considered to contain the best examples of the style ever produced.

P M E is a very useful addition as it shows full exemplars of various styles. I'm glad that I have both, but the U P would be my first choice.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 06:41:02 PM by Ken Fraser »

Offline SarahParsons

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Re: If you could travel back in time and give yourself advice...
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2015, 11:59:15 AM »
Stick to the tools that work for you, don't underestimate the importance of drills and practice and don't be so hard on yourself. Hope that helps.

Offline KayleenO

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Re: If you could travel back in time and give yourself advice...
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2015, 12:16:42 PM »
You don't want to buy too many supplies but- it's important to find what works for you which happens only when you test out a wide range of tools!
But once you find something - stick with it in the beginning, as different nibs have a bit of a learning curve.

Also, study and practice!

Offline seanlanefuller

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Re: If you could travel back in time and give yourself advice...
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2015, 01:03:30 AM »
I would travel back about 35 years and tell myself to keep practicing calligraphy and not to drop it for 35 years.  I would tell myself about dipped pointed pen calligraphy as well.  I would probably be a master penman by now.