Spacing of Spencerian letters

[jordantruster]

Hello! Does anyone have any thoughts about why the standard lowercase Spencerian letters o, b, v, w have an exiting stroke of 1/2 space?

When connecting it to another letter, you'd make it at least one space apart. So why not learn it with a one-space width?

These are the things that I wonder about when I'm learning and studying Spencerian 🤔

I didn't see any posts about this but if it's already been discussed, please let me know!

[Erica McPhee]

This is a really good question. Spacing is something you don’t often see much about - even in the old texts. I believe I have something in my saved stash somewhere. I will look for it. 

[jeanwilson]

Spacing doesn't fit into neat measurements - with any style of writing.
The exemplars give a general idea - that works for the letters that conform -
but joining the non-conforming letters hinges on what letter comes next.
oo is probably different from on

Spacing skill evolves. It doesn't follow a recipe - it's a trust-your-eye (after training your eye) skill.

[AnasaziWrites]

I just happen to have "Lessons in Ornamental Penmanship, " 1920, by C. P. Zaner on my desk. Here are his thoughts.

[AnasaziWrites]

And this from Payson, Dunton, & Scribner's "Manual of Penmanship," 1872. As you see, opinions vary.
Jean Wilson's advice is good.

[AnasaziWrites]

And this from P.R. Spencer's "Spencerian Key to Practical Penmanship." 1866.

[jeanwilson]

Thank you, @AnasaziWrites soooo much. It is so much fun to see how people can put all those details into words -- and I agree with everything they say -- even though some of the details can be so *detailed* that it's hard to follow -- they balance the copious details with common sense.

PRSpencer says: ...the character of the design depends entirely upon the taste of the writer.

Payson includes something that I see all the time -- It is a very common fault to place the words too far apart.

Zaner had the most to say about how spacing is a matter of taste -- and I love that he included - to write twice as large -- and then write half the size. Excellent advice --

[InkyFingers]

I always thought that the connecting strokes on a single letter was only for demonstration purposes. 

For example,


To me the half spacing looks less legible than the evenly spaced.

Spacing is oncourse with the writer's preference at the time of writing.
It is most likely dependent on mood and intent of the piece.
For spacing to be legible and aesthetic, it is the even spacing, foremost, and moderate spacing metric.

I don't know much but whenever I see a piece with good play of space (words and non words) and a mono-rhythmic spacing,
I am at enamor when I see @AnasaziWrites @jeanwilson and @Erica McPhee  samples.

[jordantruster]

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and resources! It seems all sources agree that the spacing between letters should be at least one unit (the width inside a letter u), even without specifically "measuring".

My question was not a general question about spacing, I was specifically curious why the letters w, v, b, and o are shown with a final stroke of 1/2 space, either explained in words or on a grid in the examples I've attached.

The reason I'm asking is because when I practice individual letters as they are taught historically, my habit is to make the final stroke 1/2 space. So when I'm writing a word, I automatically finish the letter this way and as a result, the spacing is too tight.

I understand that you should be thinking ahead about the following letter, but if I was teaching this to someone else, I would have them practice these letters with an exiting stroke of 1 space so the habit is already there

[Erica McPhee]

I believe this is because of “kerning” and the white space created between the letters. The connector is at the midline, versus the baseline.

I did this little example - writing the words first with what seemed like appropriate spacing - then made the red box between the o and v midline connector. It seems like the spacing between those letters like o, v, w, and b would be about 2/3rds what it is between other letters.

If you used the full space that is between the baseline connectors, the spread would be much too wide. I used the word love to demonstrate. It creates a large visual white space. Perhaps also contributing is that the midline connector travels horizontally, while the baseline connector travels vertically. So visually, it drags out too far horizontally if the same space is used.

I haven’t tried this with any historical pieces but I am curious to do so when I have more time. 

[Erica McPhee]

Tap on the image to enlarge. 

[jordantruster]

Kerning--that's what I was looking for 💡

I like how you said this:
"Perhaps also contributing is that the midline connector travels horizontally, while the baseline connector travels vertically. So visually, it drags out too far horizontally if the same space is used."
(Sorry I'm still learning how to use this forum and wasn't sure how to quote your post properly)

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain, Erica!

[JanisTX]

@AnasaziWrites:  I hate it that you letter so much better than me!!  I’m still trying to improve, but it’s hard when you live in an isolated place, with no other regional calligraphers & no guild!!  Your lettering is BEAUTIFUL!

[AnasaziWrites]

@AnasaziWrites:  I hate it that you letter so much better than me!!  I’m still trying to improve, but it’s hard when you live in an isolated place, with no other regional calligraphers & no guild!!  Your lettering is BEAUTIFUL!

@JanisTX
Well, thank you.
Funny you should say that just now. I really struggled with the last exchange, but today I'm writing a little better. Still trying to improve.
You're not isolated--we are all here for you. Write me a letter sometime, and I'll reply, if you like. Let's improve together.