Author Topic: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2  (Read 36858 times)

Offline Salman Khattak

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 908
  • Karma: 67
    • View Profile
    • Toronto Pen Company
Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
« Reply #60 on: March 22, 2017, 02:24:27 AM »
@jtandy

I try to get to it over the weekend if I can't make it during the week but the past couple of weekends were quite busy. I will always come back though :-)

You have developed good control of the strokes. Now it is time to pay attention to spacing. Spacing in Copperplate is almost automatic if the exit hairlines are drawn consistently. On the other hand, it is easy to see variation in spacing too.

In 'nymph' look at the 'm' and 'p' - the spacing between the three strokes of the 'm' and the two strokes of the 'p' should be identical. Can you see that the strokes in the 'm' are closer than the last stroke of the 'm' and the first stroke of the 'p'?  The two strokes of the 'p' are then closer again. Each of these strokes is one hairline (i.e. base line to 1/2 x-height, or waist line to 1/2 x-height) apart. These should be evenly spaced.

The spacing in 'mint' and 'vim' is better even though there are i-n and i-m joins to mess things up.

The closing stroke of the 'b' should not go further away from the main stroke when the hairline reaches 1/2 x-height. At this point, bring the hairline in line with the slant of the letters - or even turn back ever so slightly. This will even out the spacing in 'bin'. BTW - the same applies to the last stroke of 'w'.

The longer strokes are not even all the way through. Also, the bottoms are not squared properly. The squaring should be neatly done. The 'm' in 'mint' needs a lot more attention in this regard.

Lets give these words another try.

- Salman
I have an opinion and I'm not afraid to use it.

Copperplate Tutorial :: Toronto Pen Company

Offline Salman Khattak

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 908
  • Karma: 67
    • View Profile
    • Toronto Pen Company
Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
« Reply #61 on: March 22, 2017, 02:33:00 AM »
@Chetwyn Clarke

I tend to overuse nibs and often take far too long to realize they are causing me problems. Isn't it a pleasant feeling to know it was the nib and not you causing all those shaky strokes :-)

It is good that you are putting in practice but your basic 'i' and 'l' shapes are showing signs of regression. The turns at the base line are becoming rounded in places e.g. the two 'l's in the last 'till' in the first picture. Also, compare the two 'b's on the first line.

The taper on the shaded stroke of the 'y' is just right. You just have to move the pointy part of the loop a bit to the right and it will balance out the teardrop shape of the counter.

It might be helpful to concentrate on group-1 for a bit before coming back to this one. Your spacing will always be off unless these strokes are done right.

- Salman
I have an opinion and I'm not afraid to use it.

Copperplate Tutorial :: Toronto Pen Company

Offline Chetwyn Clarke

  • Freshman Member
  • *
  • Posts: 39
  • Karma: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
« Reply #62 on: April 01, 2017, 11:03:22 AM »
@SMK

I might not have been posting, but I have been getting in some practice.  I think I might have gone back too much to group 1, so just trying to find some balance between practicing the two groups.  My hairlines are a bit shaky, and some of the tops of the m's in tummy still need some more curvature; but overall, I can see some improvement here and there.  Will keep at it!

-Chet

Offline Salman Khattak

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 908
  • Karma: 67
    • View Profile
    • Toronto Pen Company
Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
« Reply #63 on: April 02, 2017, 01:24:23 PM »
@Chetwyn Clarke - you are definitely making progress. This is done very well other than the occasional slip.

I think one more go with this group will get you over the hump. Pay attention to spacing, the 'v-i' join in 'vim' is a bit too close, the 'n-t' join in 'mint', on the other hand, has too much space (it should be the same as 'm-i' as both joins are the same). Also, start the upstroke of the compound curve a little closer to the previous shade - almost touching is good and the occasional bleed in is ok.

- Salman
I have an opinion and I'm not afraid to use it.

Copperplate Tutorial :: Toronto Pen Company

Offline Chetwyn Clarke

  • Freshman Member
  • *
  • Posts: 39
  • Karma: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
« Reply #64 on: April 02, 2017, 10:30:25 PM »
@SMK  Wobbly on the exit for the i in vim, and working on getting the upstroke of the compound closer.  I just have to get over this fear of bleeding into the previous stroke, which makes me a bit conservative. 

- Chet

Offline Salman Khattak

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 908
  • Karma: 67
    • View Profile
    • Toronto Pen Company
Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
« Reply #65 on: April 03, 2017, 01:17:04 AM »
@Chetwyn Clarke

Try thinning your ink a little. It seems too thick to me. It should help with the hairlines.

Make a few compound strokes deliberately touching the previous shade and letting the ink bleed in - it isn't the end of the world if you've got a little bleed into the hairline here and there. It might not look too bad after all :-)

I know I stress form and spacing a lot. It is important to learn these to develop a high level of understanding of the script. However, the rules (or style) should not become crippling either - it is ok to experiment and see what happens when things are less than perfect. Relax and let things play out. You will achieve a high and consistent level of execution with time and patience and relaxation while practicing/writing is a big part of it.

Your last submission is quite good and qualifies you to move on to the next group. Well done.

- Salman

ps. I just love that 'y' in 'tummy'
I have an opinion and I'm not afraid to use it.

Copperplate Tutorial :: Toronto Pen Company

Offline vonking1980

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 84
  • Karma: 4
    • View Profile
    • MyAmari
Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
« Reply #66 on: May 05, 2017, 07:53:37 AM »
@SMK
Good Morning Salman. Here are my group 2 words. I feel like I took a step back during our travel week.
I appreciate your help and feedback. Thank you!

Offline ash0kgiri

  • Super Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1345
  • Karma: 42
    • View Profile
    • joyandashcalligraphy
Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
« Reply #67 on: May 06, 2017, 04:06:11 AM »
I think the travel break have done wonders. Your script looks good Yvonne. Consistent slant angle and shade thickness. :D
Keep writing, Ash
Calligrapher, Teacher, Creative Director, Part time Cook
www.joyandashcalligraphy.com  |  www.instagram.com/ash0kgiri

Offline vonking1980

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 84
  • Karma: 4
    • View Profile
    • MyAmari
Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
« Reply #68 on: May 06, 2017, 04:59:10 AM »
@ash0kgiri I sincerely appreciate the confidence boost, Ashok :)

Offline Salman Khattak

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 908
  • Karma: 67
    • View Profile
    • Toronto Pen Company
Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
« Reply #69 on: May 08, 2017, 01:35:22 PM »
@vonking1980

Very nice Yvonne. There isn't much wrong with that attempt. I wonder why you are not happy with it.

The turns are a tad too rounded. The first two 'tin's have it right and then they progressively get rounder. This makes the spacing a bit awkward and the script loses some of its elegance. The tops and bottoms need to be squared i.e. made horizontal. It is a good habit to develop early on.

When making the turns at the base line, make sure you 'cross over' the line - this will ensure that your turned strokes do not look shorter than the ones that end at the base line like the 'n' in the last 'nymph'. The same applies to the turns at the waist line - look at the 'y' in the same 'nymph'.

I am quite pleased with the i-n joins in your work. You have managed the spacing very nicely except in the second 'yummy' where the two 'm's are too far apart but then I suspect you knew that already :-)

Let's see another attempt at the group 2 words

- Salman
I have an opinion and I'm not afraid to use it.

Copperplate Tutorial :: Toronto Pen Company

Offline neriah

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 98
  • Karma: 18
    • View Profile
Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2017, 08:59:42 AM »
@SMK - Hi Salman,

My last try was so long ago. I did practice sporadically but decided not to post anything until I start regular practice. From this week I am practicing every day or at least every other day and it should remain like this for the next couple of months :)

I did practice shorter words and paid attention to spacinng. It is better than last try but it is not yet consistent. At least not as much as I would like. My long storkes in p, h and l suffer from lack of practice but I believe it won't take me long to be able to make them really straight and with consistent heft.

As to slant - I was moving my paper as I write but not enough, now I move paper more often and it helps.

All in all, it seems to me I am on the rigt track, I just have to make up for that 3 months without regular practice.

Thanks!

Katja

Offline Salman Khattak

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 908
  • Karma: 67
    • View Profile
    • Toronto Pen Company
Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
« Reply #71 on: May 15, 2017, 02:25:03 PM »
@neriah - Good to have you back Katja :-)

Your letter forms are pretty good but I can a bit of shakiness in your strokes. This will go away quickly.

Be carefuls with your slant. Your 'i' in 'bin' and 'mint' both stand up a bit. The loop of the 'y' should not go to the right - the curve is just suggested by the tapering of the shade from the left to the right.

You need to pay attention to the compound stroke though. Yours have a fairly pronounced curve in them that should not be there. This stroke appears to have a curve but it is just an illusion created by the turns at the waist and base lines.

Also, you might want to increase the thickness of the shade a little bit. It will make it easier to see the transitions.

Looking forward to your next attempt.

- Salman
I have an opinion and I'm not afraid to use it.

Copperplate Tutorial :: Toronto Pen Company

Offline neriah

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 98
  • Karma: 18
    • View Profile
Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
« Reply #72 on: June 04, 2017, 03:05:46 AM »
@SMK - Hi Salman,

I tried my best to correct mistakes you pointed put, I think it is better now. I believe I am not makijg a curve in compound stroke any more and I pay more attention to slant. However, I am not happy with this attempt but it is the best one so far. My "m" and "n" letters look wrong to me, I can't really say why but it just doesn't look right...

Thanks!

Katja

Offline Salman Khattak

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 908
  • Karma: 67
    • View Profile
    • Toronto Pen Company
Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
« Reply #73 on: June 12, 2017, 08:48:57 AM »
@neriah - sorry for being late in replying to this Katja.

The thing that jumps out at me in this attempt is that the slant of your compound stroke is now off. It stands up a bit and that throws off your 'm' and 'n' - it is a problem in 'p' and 'h' as well but the longer strokes anchor the letters better. That is pretty much the only issue issue I see in this one.

- Salman
I have an opinion and I'm not afraid to use it.

Copperplate Tutorial :: Toronto Pen Company

Offline neriah

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 98
  • Karma: 18
    • View Profile
Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2017, 02:02:02 AM »
@SMK - thank you for your feedback and for finding time to comment.

I believe I got the slant right this time. But I think I still have some spacing issues with m's and n's like "n" in "nymph" and "m" in "vim".

Thanks!

Katja