Author Topic: Buying a new oblique  (Read 6625 times)

Offline garyn

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Re: Buying a new oblique
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2016, 11:07:48 PM »
When you decide you want a straight holder, take a look here.  Nice straight holders.
http://dippens.net/index.html
Gary

Offline Salman Khattak

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Re: Buying a new oblique
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2016, 11:28:59 PM »
On the matter of the traditional (knuckles up) grip vs. the modern (sideway), my opinion is that the traditional grip, while useful, is not the only way to execute OP and Spencerian. This grip was intended to make it easy to write slanted hands with a quill. Very early instruction for English Roundhand about with descriptions (and pictures) of this grip. This carried over to instruction for using a straight holder for slanted hands - in which case it makes a lot of sense. The grip offered two advantages: a/ it placed the nib at an angle closer to the slant of the letters, and b/ it allowed for free movement of the hand as it rested on the nails of the ring and pinky fingers.

The slant issue does not exist with oblique holders and with a bit of practice one can perform hand/arm movements with fluidity.

The traditional grip does have its advantages but is not the only way to write well. Brian Walker does not use this grip and seems to do ok :-)

- Salman
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Offline Empty_of_Clouds

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Re: Buying a new oblique
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2016, 12:33:18 AM »
Now I am in a lather of indecision.  I can write just as well with any kind of grip - that's to say that my hand  is equally bad for all grips!

I wanted to replace the broken holders with something with a touch of the personal about it.  Connie's ergonomic pens are my best bet in this regard, with other custom makers considerably more expensive as far as I can tell.

Offline Salman Khattak

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Re: Buying a new oblique
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2016, 12:57:48 AM »
In my opinion it puts you in a position of 'infinite possibilities' since you don't have to unlearn anything.

If you are to develop a grip, I would suggest the traditional knuckles up grip would work best and set you up properly for arm movement that is key for OP and Spencerian. The sideways grip is considerably easier to get used to later on if you think you need the added stability for Engrosser's script. BTW a properly designed ergonomic holder is plenty stable for Engrosser's even with the knuckles up grip.

I have never used one but I don't think you will be at any disadvantage with one of Connie's holders.

Also, I believe all this grip talk is best taken with a few milligrams of salt. There are always going to be some variations from person to person and that is perfectly acceptable. I am sure there were variations even among the penmen teaching the same method.

- Salman
I have an opinion and I'm not afraid to use it.

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Offline tintenfuchs

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Re: Buying a new oblique
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2016, 06:32:19 AM »
Now I am in a lather of indecision.  I can write just as well with any kind of grip - that's to say that my hand  is equally bad for all grips!

I wanted to replace the broken holders with something with a touch of the personal about it.  Connie's ergonomic pens are my best bet in this regard, with other custom makers considerably more expensive as far as I can tell.
I was very content with both price and quality of Heebs' ergonomic holders. @imheebs on Instagram.
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Offline AndyT

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Re: Buying a new oblique
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2016, 10:02:36 AM »
Brian Walker does not use this grip and seems to do ok :-) ... all this grip talk is best taken with a few milligrams of salt.

Indeed, and he doesn't have much time for all this talk about right and wrong ways to hold a pen (I asked him).  What this business of writing comes down to in the end is a matter of moving a pen in the appropriate directions with the necessary variations of pressure, and if you can do that it doesn't matter one jot how you go about it, or what you do it with.  At least half the battle (and in my opinion considerably more than half) is understanding the forms, and time spent studying them is likely to be much more profitable than fretting about technical abstractions.

Regarding "ergonomic" holders, I made one, or at least my interpretation.  A couple of observations suggest themselves: what's perfect for one person may be decidedly awkward for another, and if you intend to write OP you'll need to twist the pen about its axis - much more controllable with a cylindrical pen.  For what it's worth my holder did seem very promising for plain penmanship.

Offline Estefa

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Re: Buying a new oblique
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2016, 02:53:00 PM »
I'd like to second what Salman and Andy wrote about the pen grip thing. I've seen people get so obsessed (and frustrated) about that subject (same up to a certain degree regarding arm movement), not because they were not able to write nicely, but because their pen grip didn't exactly look like in some old book. I guess if you're an adult who has been writing (or drawing) for many years in an everyday kind of way, there is nothing wrong with just continuing to hold the pen like you used to. There are exceptions off-hand flourishing; or writing broad nib styles that require a lot of pen manipulation / twisting I which case the pen should be held in a nearly 90 degree angle to the paper. Many of the educational writing manuals were aimed at kids or teenagers who were taught to write at all :).
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Offline melanie jane

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Re: Buying a new oblique
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2016, 11:38:47 AM »
Just to update my experiences a bit.  I hadn't had much chance to use the ergonomic pen I made until today.  I had a good go with it earlier, but I just wasn't totally comfortable with it as it was.  I had carved it to suit the grip I tend to have with a more traditional pen.  That is, the fairly standard grip amongst most people, with the pen resting on my middle finger.  I wouldn't say it was uncomfortable, just no more comfortable than a standard oblique pen.  However, I then did a bit more sanding and changed the grip, so that my thumb sits immediately behind the flange and my forefinger and middle finger sit right at the end of the pen, actually curving around the front of the pen, and this is so much more comfortable, and gives me a lot more control.  It's actually improved my calligraphy significantly (though I must stress, I'm still pretty much a beginner) in a matter of minutes.

Does anyone else have this type of grip? 
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Offline Estrella

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Re: Buying a new oblique
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2016, 02:58:39 PM »
Thought of you when I saw Connie's IG post: @colorsofchrist Just a few of the holders finished this week. Last two days for 15% off penholders with code SPRING15 at connie-chen.com


Offline randy2

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Re: Buying a new oblique
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2016, 11:37:09 PM »
Get a Yoke holder!

Offline Empty_of_Clouds

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Re: Buying a new oblique
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2016, 02:32:51 AM »
Would love to, but they are way out of my league, and would also be a bit wasted on a beginner like me.

Offline YokePenCo

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Re: Buying a new oblique
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2016, 10:15:42 AM »
Would love to, but they are way out of my league, and would also be a bit wasted on a beginner like me.

Don't know if you are aware but I also make budget priced pens which start at $44.99, which can also be custom ordered. These perform exactly the same as my more expensive pen holders. :)
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Offline Nickkih

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Re: Buying a new oblique
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2016, 10:29:32 AM »
I just bought two of Chris Yoke's budget pens this month and I love them. They are simple, beautiful, functional and very affordable... And the finish on them is now my favorite of all the holders I own.
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Offline AussieCalligrapherAlex

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Re: Buying a new oblique
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2016, 06:33:47 PM »
I'm still waiting for my yoke holder, pretty excited. I got a budget one also.

Offline Ken Fraser

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Re: Buying a new oblique
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2016, 05:35:10 PM »

Also, I believe all this grip talk is best taken with a few milligrams of salt. There are always going to be some variations from person to person and that is perfectly acceptable. I am sure there were variations even among the penmen teaching the same method.

I agree.

As long as you don't grip the pen so tightly that you develop callouses, I don't see that it makes a great deal of difference how you hold your pen. I'm a great believer in the basic traditional triangular penhold, as I feel that it offers most control and flexibility, whilst being very comfortable over long periods of writing but I'm well aware that we are not machines and variations in our physical make-up can dictate certain differences. I don't believe that there s such a thing as a "wrong" penhold. In the end, the only thing that really matters, is how it looks on paper, and the means of getting there is largely irrelevant.

Nor do I believe that there is any great benefit to be gained by adopting different hand grips for different pens and styles of writing. About sixty years ago, I settled on the basic handgrip as the best for me, and I've used it without modification for all styles of writing with all types of pen and nib, ever since.

These two photos show the identical handhold with a straight pen and with an oblique one. With the pen shaft resting just before the large knuckle, the angle of the shaft is the same in both but the flange of the oblique pen creates the correct, lower, nib-to-paper angle for use with flexible nibs.

I don't have much time for so-called "ergonomic" penholders as I feel that they vary too much to be of good general use, and would inevitably require some  modification to the tried and tested traditional handgrip. Also, I have to admit that I find it very difficult to enthuse over something which has all the aesthetic appeal of a little piece of distorted driftwood. :P

« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 05:54:35 PM by Ken Fraser »