Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2

[NevadaDeb]

Pass Two--2 dates after first post here in Group 2. Cleaning up a few problem areas, but still need work on every problem. Posting several lines to show where my problem habits lie.

[Salman Khattak]

@NevadaDeb

Debi - the image you uploaded is rather small. Larger images let me get right in there and I can see the execution much better - this is one of the advantages of using technology :-) there are things I notice so we still have something to work on.

- the exit hairline going into a compound curve (e.g. n-y) should be drawn in one go. It seems to me that you take the exit up to about 3/4 of the x-height and then the angle changes.

- the exit hairline out of the compound curve is flatter than the 'standard' hairline causing it to 'impale' the following stroke (i.e. join too low). Remember the entry and exit hairlines are drawn exactly the same way.

- the entry hairline for the compound curve is also flat causing it to branch off too high - it should branch off at mid x-height. Turn the paper upside down and it should look like a regular exit hairline going into the following shaded stroke.


Let's just work on these for now. I will be looking forward to the next upload. Remember to separate the strokes:  entry hairline - shaded stroke - exit hairline. (each '-' means a slight pen lift).

- Salman

[NevadaDeb]

Hi Salman,

I've waited a while before posting another pass on these letters, hoping to make some real progress on the problem areas. I don't want to wait any more. Lots of practice since then, but I'm finding stubborn habits are difficult to break. Here is an accurate view of where I am today. Not as far as I'd hoped I'd be, that some forward movement. I'm focusing mainly on the exit hairlines And entrance) and trying to hit the center of the x-height for joins. I had to let the slant angle and shade consistency go for now, and try to get the hairlines to happen without that pesky "hitch" 3/4 of the way up.  I really appreciate your attention to detail so that I don't spend months letting new bad habits settle in!

[Salman Khattak]

@NevadaDeb

Hi Debi - this is good work in terms of spacing and smoothness of hairlines.

Now for some focus on the branching hairlines. It looks like the branching hairlines (as in the second stroke of the 'n' and the 'h') start at a flatter angle at times. Compare the very first 'h' to the 'ph' in 'nymph' an you'll see what I mean. Use the 'h' in 'nymph' as your model for the second stroke.

Round off the tops and bottom of the compound strokes a bit more along with the bottom of the 'i' stroke. Some of these are too pointy and cause uneven exits. For example the last stroke of the 'n' in 'nymph' exits very nicely at the base line but the start of the first stroke of the 'y' is too narrow - it should match the shape of the nice exit from the 'n'. This is easily fixed by moving your finishing point on the base line every so slightly (about half the width of the shade) to the right and the starting point of the compound curve to the left by the same amount.

Also, your strokes should take about 1/3 x-height to go from full width to hairline at the base line and the same to go from hairline to full width at the waist line - this will also help with the above.

Thank you for uploading a larger image. 150 dpi seems like a good resolution for detailed analysis.

Regards,
Salman

[NevadaDeb]

Not really ready to post yet, as the letters, shading, spacing and branching is still not where I want them, but felt I should show something for my week. I've really been trying, and practicing daily, but it's just slow going for me. Yes, I know the "YUM" is atrocious, the U too round and wide, and I could park a semi between the U and the M. Sorry about that.  Thank you for your patience!

[Salman Khattak]

@NevadaDeb

Hi Debi. You are almost there. The only two things that need work now are the slant and hitting the waist and base lines consistently. The first branching in the 'm' is still a bit steeper than the second one. The second one is what I'm looking for in all the branching letters (n,m,p,h).

The loop of the 'y' is a bit too thin - you were drawing it nicely in the previous group so it is just a matter of paying attention to it.

I really like the proportion of the shaded strokes at this x-height.

- Salman

[NevadaDeb]

Hi Salman,

I've had cataract surgery, and I had to make solid guidelines this week because my eyes keep bouncing on the dotted lines of your guide sheet. I just traced over yours with solid lines. I'm still struggling with the entrances and exit hairlines, the slant angle and the joins. I've not made any noticeable progress this week, but I'm hoping that next week I'll be able to see better with new glasses, and when my loopy vision settles down. I want to stick with this group until I have corrected these glaring errors, and am in no hurry to move forward. Thank you for taking the time to share your advice!

[NevadaDeb]

Eyes clearing up a bit this morning. One more stab at it. Self Assessment.

[Salman Khattak]

@NevadaDeb

Wow Debi - that is such a detailed assessment. I especially love that you stayed non-judgemental - it is easy to be too critical of oneself.

We have to focus on the mistakes while learning but it is also important to take account of the progress we have made. As far as structure and the shape of the strokes go, you are have achieved a lovely combination of delicacy and flow. It is no easy task to have such beautifully judged spacing.

The only thing I would add is the size of the descender loop of the 'j' stroke. It should come a bit lower to about halfway into the second descender space. Taper off the shade by the time you reach the 1st descender and draw the remaining part of the down stroke as a hairline. It will add delicacy to the turn at the bottom and make it easier to get the almost shape of the counter.

The positive thing in all the 'problem' areas you noted is that you already know how to fix these.

BTW - the low entry hairlines in 'nymph' aren't all that bad. They do flow in smoothly rather than impaling the following shade - this smoothness is what we are looking for. Ideally they should meet about halfway up the x-height but the most important element is the continuity of flow which you have achieved nicely.

The 'm-n' join in 'hymn' is a thing of beauty.

Wishing you a quick and full recovery so we get to enjoy more of your work.

- Salman

[NevadaDeb]

Oh, my goodness! I can't thank you enough for your incredibly insightful comments, Salman. I have struggled (am STILL struggling) with that "J" shape, and you gave me exactly the detailed information I needed to start improving it. I should wait a few days to share, and get more practice in, but I'm too excited to be finally starting to make the delicate shapes. This was the "key" for me--exactly how long the descender should be, and when to fade the shade. The last "y" in this line was wasn't as successful, but I'm starting to get it, and that is EXCITING! Whooo! I love learning. And I'm crazy about studying in groups of 5, which really allows me to reflect on what I have done successfully and unsuccessfully, rather than writing out long lines and making the same mistakes over and over. Those short groupings of 5 really set us up for success. Fantastic tips, and you're a great motivator. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!

[NevadaDeb]

No new glasses yet, but eyes no longer bouncing on the dotted lines. I'm still seeing minor improvement. I'm pleased with any improvement this week!

[Salman Khattak]

@NevadaDeb

Debi - there is a clear improvement in your work but you are also noticing more details. This 'sharpening of the eye' is what ultimately determines the level of our work. Yours is going to be of a high standard.

It might be the angle of the camera but the 'p' and the 'h' in 'nymph' appear a bit upright to me. That seems to be the the struggle in this exercise - a rotation of the paper might be in order.

A slight adjustment in the (much improved) downstroke of the 'y'. Try to taper off to the right i.e. the left side of the shade should come to meet the right side - this forms the inside of the counter for the loop before there is a counter :-)

The starts of your shaded strokes (like the 'i' and the 'j' strokes) need to be retouched to make the square and same width as the rest of the stroke. Don't waste your time with creating a square top in one go - retouching cleanly is much more consistent and reliable. Also, start making square 'bottoms' for the inverted 'i' stroke and the first stroke of the 'h' - again by retouching.

The 'h-y' joins seem to be getting a bit wider in this attempt - watch out for that.

- Salman

[NevadaDeb]

Salman,
Thank you so much for your response. I hate to ask for clarification, but I am confused and cannot quite grasp what you are suggesting. I just want to make sure of what I’m aiming for.

In reference to my downstroke of the “J” form, you suggested that I should “Try to taper off to the right —the left side of the shade should come to meet the right side. This forms the inside of the counter for the loop before there is a counter.”

Do you mean I should start reducing the left side of the shade BEFORE I get to the first descender, rather than target the reduction AT the first descender? Or do you mean the shade should be more gradual in reduction of swell and that mine is too abrupt, too low?

I’m sorry to bother you with this, but I just can’t quite “get it,” and I want desperately to know exactly what I’m looking for so I can change my downstroke at the appropriate point. I’ve been looking at a lot of different scribes’ “Y’s” and there is quite a bit of variation. But it looks like most of them start tapering sooner in the stroke than I have been. Is this what you meant?

Again, I’m so sorry to need to ask for clarification!

[Salman Khattak]

@NevadaDeb

So sorry if I wasn't clear Debi.

What I meant to say was that the left side of the shade should come to meet the right side. This will give us a triangle shaped shade that is straight on the right side and starts to taper at the base line with the left side of the shade coming to meet the right side at about the 1st descender line. I talk about this at the beginning of this video: Copperplate Tutorial - j, g & q

Please do let me know if further clarification is needed.

- Salman

[NevadaDeb]

Salman, you were VERY clear. I just couldn't understand what you meant. But watching your video helped so much. I could SEE what I couldn't understand in writing, and it just became crystal clear. It wasn't your explanation -- it's my shortcoming with written directions. I do much better seeing examples--I'm very much a visual learner.

I had forgotten those wonderful videos of yours that I haven't watched since my first week of study with you. I'm going back to them and studying them in depth now, with more advanced eyes and a better understanding. They are SO helpful for those subtle details. I don't want to practice endlessly, and make no progress -- I'd rather practice "smart," and not let bad habits develop. This has been a real "lightbulb moment" tonight, and I can't thank you enough for taking the time to help me.

I will rest easier knowing I'm back on the path of better understanding those letterform subtleties.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!