Messages

1546

Copperplate, Engrosser's Script, Roundhand Calligraphy / Re: Hairlines: Contrast of Thick and Thin

« on: November 10, 2015, 06:48:03 AM »

I can see a few imperfections in this letter by Knowles, but they're not bothering me at all, whereas the controlled perfection of Ken's letterforms makes them too stiff for my own taste.

I can't argue with that, as a reasoned, subjective point of view.

However, I'll take it as a compliment - thank you! 

If I've achieved "controlled perfection" in my Spencerian writing = I'm happy!

1547

Copperplate, Engrosser's Script, Roundhand Calligraphy / Re: Hairlines: Contrast of Thick and Thin

« on: November 09, 2015, 06:04:28 PM »

This piece was written a while ago, and to the best of my memory, there's wasn't much retouching - it didn't need it.
However, having said that, it would probably have been retouched to some extent however small, as this is my normal practice.
With this one, I think that I re-positioned some of the words to improve spacing, but little else. The lettering was fine.

Possibly of more significance was the fact that it was written very slowly, as is my normal practice.

As long as it was hand-done, to me it makes no difference how it was achieved, the only thing that matters is how it looks on paper.
I still retouch mainly by hand; for some perverse reason, I resist using the computer for this purpose.

I have no interest in work produced with fonts, pretending to be hand-written.

Ken

1548

Copperplate, Engrosser's Script, Roundhand Calligraphy / Re: Hairlines: Contrast of Thick and Thin

« on: November 09, 2015, 05:18:00 PM »

I don't mean to be rude, and I sincerely hope I'm not, but when I see Ken's spencerian, I can see that he does not like that script as much as he likes Copperplate. It looks great in its form, but it lacks the grace and, well lightness and inspiration, of the master's specimens... I think this might be about control : copperplate is done slowly and requires a great amount of control. I think drills are not very useful to be able to make the letterforms, it's all about repeating the same movements consistently (flourishing is something else).

Good points , well made and of course, I take no offense.

I have admitted, on a couple of occasions, that I am no lover of Spencerian Script and I have made the point that you don't have to like it, to be able to write it.

The opinion that I write it as though I'd rather be writing Copperplate, has been made before.  I know that this is totally subjective, but I genuinely feel that my Spencerian Script looks OK and is, in fact, as good as most examples, old and new, out there.

(How's that for conceit!)

1549

Copperplate, Engrosser's Script, Roundhand Calligraphy / Re: Hairlines: Contrast of Thick and Thin

« on: November 09, 2015, 06:35:48 AM »

But the Zanerian and the thick thicks and thinny thins... pure YUM! 

I've gone back to have a second look, as I respect your opinion.

No...it doesn't do it, for me. The hairlines are too fine in relation to the heavy downstrokes and the difference is too great to be attractive. A whole page written liked that, would be quite difficult to read. Slightly stronger hairlines would make all the difference IMO.

Ken

1550

Open Flourish | General Discussion / Re: Italian Hand

« on: November 05, 2015, 06:12:20 PM »

Here's an example of Italian Hand.

1551

Copperplate, Engrosser's Script, Roundhand Calligraphy / Re: Hairlines: Contrast of Thick and Thin

« on: November 05, 2015, 05:14:33 PM »

Ken,
It can be very easy to look at things from a narrow perspective and forget that there may be a broader view.  Spencerian can be seen as both a calligraphic hand and a handwriting style.  Many of us who began to study this system of writing approached it as a form of handwriting, but became enamored of it's calligraphic possibilities, further muddying the waters.  Your realization that perhaps you had been looking at it from the wrong perspective took a lot more self examination and thought than most people are capable of, and I applaud you for it (although I feel that many of your points in regards to hairlines and legibility are still quite valid).

Thank you!

Although I accept that the very finest hairlines require great skill in their execution, I still hold to my opinions regarding hairlines and legibility.

It's worth considering that the Universal Penman contributors were aware that they were writing for engraving and reproduction. That being the case, I find it hard to believe that they would have produced work so fine that it would have given the engraver trouble in reproduction. I believe that it is entirely possible that the 18th century prints are, in fact, sub-standard having lost some detail in the printing process. To me, it's far more likely that the original writing would have been much closer to the printing in the Dover edition. I know that it's only sales talk, but I agree with the advertising description from Amazon -
........This Dover edition, however, contains every plate which Bickham engraved, and each is reproduced from an original so remarkably clear that these modern plates are actually better than most 18th-century originals.........

As no copies of the actual original writing used in the Universal Penman exist, we'll never know for certain, but conjecture is fascinating.

Ken

1552

Copperplate, Engrosser's Script, Roundhand Calligraphy / Re: Hairlines: Contrast of Thick and Thin

« on: November 05, 2015, 10:53:14 AM »

Returning to the "Hairline" theme and to quote myself from the start of this thread -

If you take the finest nib, dip it in iron gall ink (possibly diluted)  and on a piece of smooth, uncoated paper draw an upward line
using only the weight of the nib, you will produce the finest, barely visible, hairline.
Contrary to popular misconception, this requires absolutely no skill, being entirely dependent on the choice of nib, ink and paper
and allowing the weight of the nib to produce the line. The skill emerges with the transition of hairline into shaded stroke and
the reverse.

In retrospect, I have to qualify this assertion, as I was fundamentally mistaken.

I write everything slowly, sometimes very slowly, and this has led to the criticism that my Spencerian, whilst accurate, lacks life and
sparkle. With regard to hairlines, yes I can write them very thinly as I have described, but at a snail’s pace, lacking the verve and
panache as the examples on this thread have demonstrated. 

On looking again at the Duntonian example, I had forgotten that Spencerian is a style of handwriting, and imagining it being written
at a fairly brisk pace, puts a whole new complexion on it. To produce ultra-fine hairlines as those demonstrated, would indeed take a great
deal of skill. Just keeping the nib in contact with the paper, would be a considerable feat.

By posting on this thread, it’s good to be able to correct my earlier, mistaken assertion, and to admit that I was wrong.

Ken
 

1553

Copperplate, Engrosser's Script, Roundhand Calligraphy / Re: Hairlines: Contrast of Thick and Thin

« on: November 04, 2015, 05:12:36 PM »

.......an Englishman (Ken).......

I'm actually a half-breed - English mother & Scottish father. I consider myself, British. 

Ken

1554

Copperplate, Engrosser's Script, Roundhand Calligraphy / Re: English Roundhand a.k.a. Copperplate

« on: November 04, 2015, 04:57:07 PM »

It's personal preference.

In the 18th century, ascenders were usually straight, but there were looped exceptions. Nowadays, they tend to be usually looped.

Thanks for the compliment 

1555

Open Flourish | General Discussion / Re: My Exemplars

« on: November 04, 2015, 10:33:41 AM »

I just have to say, thank you! These are beautiful and motivating to learn so much more.

My pleasure! 

1556

Copperplate, Engrosser's Script, Roundhand Calligraphy / Re: Major accomplishment!!!

« on: November 04, 2015, 10:23:14 AM »

Congatulations!  That's awesome.  I can't get myself to write on a slant.  I'm terrible at it.  Can you give any pointers to us upright calligraphers. 

I rotate the paper anti-clockwise until the slope line is at right angles to the edge of my desk. I'm then writing upright.

I do this for all styles of writing. For example, if I'm writing Italic at a 5 degree slope, I turn the paper 5 degrees to the left so that the slope line is vertical. For Copperplate at 55 degrees slope, I rotate the paper 55 degrees to the left. In other words, the slope line is always vertical, regardless of style.
You don't have to be absolutely precise, but as a basic technique, it's easy to do, and it works!

Give it a try.

Ken

1557

Open Flourish | General Discussion / Re: My Exemplars

« on: November 04, 2015, 09:36:35 AM »

"Modern Business Penmanship" by E C Mills is free for download on the IAMPETH site.

Probably the best source for this style.

Ken

1558

Copperplate, Engrosser's Script, Roundhand Calligraphy / Re: Contrast of thick and thin hairlines

« on: November 04, 2015, 04:03:57 AM »

Yes, you've made your view on the pointlessness of hairlines abundantly clear.

I never said that hairlines were pointless - only extra-fine hairlines which are too thin for legibility..

1559

Copperplate, Engrosser's Script, Roundhand Calligraphy / Re: Hairlines: Contrast of Thick and Thin

« on: November 03, 2015, 04:50:12 PM »

It is a luxury to be able to limit your offerings to only original work, but if you can swing it, and like the looks - it's a pretty nice way to go.

I am fortunate in that a great deal  of my work is in the one-off category;  at the moment, I'm just starting on a "Freedom of the District" scroll for a Regional Council recipient. I have until the end of the month to complete it. so I have the luxury of being able to take my time and enjoy it. Hand-crafted work like this is still valued and will never be replaced by computerised print.

A fair percentage of my work is still of this type.

Ken

1560

Copperplate, Engrosser's Script, Roundhand Calligraphy / Re: Hairlines: Contrast of Thick and Thin

« on: November 03, 2015, 04:39:20 PM »

My finest business card, hand lettered by A. R. Dunton, came from a small collection of cards from the area. Extremely fine thins and rather "lean" shades--a very pleasing combination to my eye.
Anyone have opinions of the thicks/thins on this one? And how about that x-height on the smallest words--about 1/64th?

This is IMO a beautiful example of the style. The Hairlines and modest shades complement each other perfectly to produce very attractive lettering. If all Spencerian/Duntonian lettering were this good, I might well change my opinion of it!  Thanks for posting.

Ken