Author Topic: italic exercise for your comments  (Read 3190 times)

Offline chesterter

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italic exercise for your comments
« on: March 16, 2016, 12:44:04 AM »
i'm a calligraphy beginner and recently practicing italic.

Apart from the slant problems, i also feel uncomfortable on the flourishing stuff...

May I have some comment for improvement?
Calligraphy newbie from Hong Kong.
Commetns and Critique are welcome ;)

Offline Inkysloth

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Re: italic exercise for your comments
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2016, 05:20:27 AM »
Firstly, Jean Wilson posted a really thorough reply to my "italic struggles" thread - that's here, and worth a read: http://theflourishforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=3832.msg51489#msg51489

Secondly, it looks like you're doing really well from here, but I agree that your flourishes are a little off. Your lettering is very dense - writing passages with more breathing room between lines would give you more space for your flourishes to flow. leave enough space between the bottom of one line's descenders to not touch the top of the next line's ascenders - I tend to leave a gap of the X height between the descender and ascender lines. (So my page goes: ascender line, x height, descender line, x height left blank, repeat).

What I'm finding is, as I'm writing a letter I'm not completely confident in, flourishes from those letters are also coming off as hesitant, so I'm holding off on flourishing for now, until my basic italic is solid. Then I'll add it it. Maybe this will help you, too?

Post progress! And I'll post some too :)

Best wishes

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: italic exercise for your comments
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2016, 07:44:06 AM »
Chester: You clearly have what it takes to be good at italic. It would be helpful to see which exemplar you are using. Maybe you can post a photo that includes your exemplar.

I read my old post in the link in InkySloth's post and it includes all the things I would say to you. So, if you want to follow those suggestions and post some more, I would be happy to post more comments. I could go through your sample and point out places that need refinement, but, at the end of that list, I would still recommend backing up and working on just a few letters at a time and refining your spacing, slant, and branching.

Spacing - one of the things that I love about italic is that there are an infinite number of variations. Personally, I like an italic with shorter ascenders and decenders (b,d,g,h,j,k,l,p,q,y) for beginners. It saves space on the practice pages. Down the road, after you have mastered all the letters, you can lengthen your ascenders and descenders. So, I would stick to writing on every other lines and just shorten ascenders and descenders - and not worry about the overlap on practice pages.

Caps - many exemplars show caps that are too tall. There is no absolute authority on what the proportions should be, but the true rock stars of italics keep their caps just slightly taller than the x-height - and the ascenders are taller than the caps. This is subtle and it may be subjective - but IMHO - it is not really subjective. Italic caps that are too tall just scream for attention - and not in a good way. There are probably more exemplars out there with too-tall-caps, so it can be hard to convince people that the caps should be so modest - but, if you check out the really sophisticated italics, you will see fairly short caps.

Flourishing - pointed pen styles of flourishing are based on the parent shapes in copperplate and Spencerian. Flourishing in italic is based on the parent shapes in italic - which are quite different. I suppose there are people who can morph the two successfully, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. For a beginner, it would be best to learn the italic based flourishes with your beginning italics. Once again, it would be good to know which exemplar you are using. If you are following the flourishes you see in copperplate and adding them on to the italics, you might want to reconsider doing that. If you need italic based flourishes, let me know.

The very best italic lessons are in Sheila Water's book, Foundations of Calligraphy - which includes many broad edge styles. If you are not able to get that book, then the Speedball Textbook is a pretty good option.

Hopefully, you and InkySloth will post more work. It's always helpful to other beginners to see people post progress on FF. Too many beginners are shy about posting work. Hopefully, your willingness to share will show that beginners improve faster when they post their work.

And thank you InkySloth for pulling out that old post...I had completely forgotten that I had written it...
« Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 08:29:58 AM by jeanwilson »

Offline chesterter

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Re: italic exercise for your comments
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2016, 09:59:49 AM »
Thanks for so much for your comments!
They're really helpful and I am still reading at Jean old post.

I totally agree that the letter form should be more solid. For spacing, I am using such a dense and compress spacing is simply because I want to make the sonnet in exactly 14 lines in a piece of A4 paper (I want to use these old university paper up as fast as I can ;)
So shorter ascenders n decenders shall really help~

Actaully I am taking a long term calligraphy course in hong Kong and my teacher just hand write the exemplar to me.... But I would say they're chancery italic,and the flourishing examples are from the book calligraphy in italic and copperplate.  Last week, my teacher required me to add flourishing in a passage as exercise ... I get lost as I think only the first cap of every line fits flourishing. I have read some examples that flourishing in the middle, and other places went so blanks afterwards 😕

Sincerely thanks for you comments, and I'll surely pose my future practices here😊
Calligraphy newbie from Hong Kong.
Commetns and Critique are welcome ;)

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: italic exercise for your comments
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2016, 12:24:31 PM »
The denseness is just fine. Tight spacing is fine.
Consistency is what you need to work on.

Be careful about sharing my suggestions with your teacher.
I am not typical in my style of teaching - and I embrace variety from the very beginning.
Many teachers are better at teaching specific concepts, without variations.
Your teacher may not want to branch out with variations at this point.
It would be best to follow your teachers directions as long as you are in the class
and save my suggestions for later on - after you have completed your class.

I look forward to seeing more of your work.

Offline chesterter

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Re: italic exercise for your comments
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2016, 12:17:24 AM »
thank you for the comments and it really looks better with shorter ascender.
Consistency is really a problem for me. I'll work hard characters by characters ;)

In this piece of work, i come accross some more problems,
1) the decorative part of the ascender looks broken
2) I am not sure how to put "Th"  and "b'd" (the second last line) in a better way, i hesitate a lot.
3) Whenever i write "c, e, o, s", i feel that i'm getting lost of the slant.
May I have some further suggestions on the issues, and I am very happy to know any other problems of the work.

As my teacher said the italic part is almost finished, my teacher encourages me to read more and learn for variations, so do feel free to comment or give suggestions ;) many thanks to all!
Calligraphy newbie from Hong Kong.
Commetns and Critique are welcome ;)

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: italic exercise for your comments
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2016, 07:22:13 AM »
1
I am not sure exactly what you mean about the ascenders looking broken. If you are making the stem and then going back to add the arched-hook at the top, maybe you mean that where you join them, it is not a seamless transition. If so, the problem might be the nib and ink more than your technique. In general, you are getting the shape of the ascender and arch much better than the average beginner. Making that seam invisible is sometimes not possible when the ink is transparent. Also, it looks like the paper bleeds a bit. With a black ink, and non-bleedign paper, you would not see the join - as long as the nib was positioned correctly when you started the arch-hook. If I am missing what you mean by broken, please clarify.
2
The apostrophe should be a little higher - but not all the way to the top. The beauty of hand done things is that you can position elements where they look best and you do not have to follow an exact measurement. So, the placement should be somewhere that looks like it is cozy with the letters, but not too close. Near the top, but not even with the top of the ascenders. Some people insist that the apostrophe should be higher than the ascender, but IMHO that draws too much attention to it - I have never claimed to be an authority on these matters...some of us are rebels and do unorthodox things because we like the way it looks.
3
Italic can be pointy or it can be more rounded. Most of your letters are the pointy style. Your c, e, and o are rounder. So, you need to find an exemplar that shows the pointier versions of those letters. I believe you said that your teacher wrote out the letters by hand for your exemplar. Her exemplar might be inconsistent. Whenever I do a handwritten exemplar, my italic is full of inconsistencies. So we need to get you a polished exemplar - and it would be nice to get both a pointy version and a rounder version.

For consistency in slanting...if your paper is thin enough that you can see through it, you can position piece of ruled paper (under the page you are writing on) and have slant lines showing through to follow. If you look at your c, e, and o - and look at where the most weight is on the left side of the letter, on many of them, the weight is down at the 7 o'clock position of the curve. It should be higher. Imagine the letter i - but give it enough curve at the top and bottom to make it morph into the first stroke of a c, e, or o. If you look at the bowl on your best d, that is closer to what you want.

You also need to be looking at the shape of white space (the counter) that you are creating inside these letters. Once you know what that shape is supposed to be, you can maintain consistency by looking at the corner of the nib that is creating that shape. That will guide your nib better than looking at the entire width of the stroke. This is hard to describe in words. If someone who can shoot a video wants to do that, it would be very helpful.

The s is a whole subject by itself and we need to get you a consistent exemplar before we address the s. Rather than sticking with the pointed style, you might want to switch to the rounder style. Because you have a good grasp of the ascender arching-hook, and you would probably do very well and putting those graceful curves into all the letters. Eventually, you will enjoy knowing both.

Maybe someone can direct us to an online source for a really good italic exemplar. There are so many out there that are a little off. Maybe I should contact Sheila Waters and ask her if she would mind putting her exemplar out on the internet just to resolve the issue of how many *clunky* ones are out there. In a perfect world, everyone buys her book...but, I realize that's not going to happen.

Chester - it is nice to see that my first set of suggestions were helpful. I agree that the shorter ascenders and descenders look better. The consistency is something that is hard to teach. Many times the student just needs to slow down. Also, you have the added pressure of trying to make everything fit on one line...so you are not *free*.
If you had no constraint on the length of the lines - you might find it easier to be consistent.

To do that with these words, you would need a smaller nib. However, the smaller you go with cartridge pens, the less detail you can get. It would be really nice to see you work with dip pens. The more precise strokes and details often make it easier to achieve consistency when you switch to dip pens. Plus, they help with slowing down. Is there any chance of you getting nibs? (I see a cartridge pen in the image, so I am assuming that you are working with cartridge pens, right?)

I look forward to the next thing you post :-)
And I hope others chime in. My opinion is just one - and there are many ways to approach these topics.



Offline Ken Fraser

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Re: italic exercise for your comments
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2016, 07:53:41 PM »
Your lettering is very dense - writing passages with more breathing room between lines would give you more space for your flourishes to flow. leave enough space between the bottom of one line's descenders to not touch the top of the next line's ascenders....

Almost all good exemplars I've seen, advocate generous inter-line spacing and your writing would benefit immediately by leaving an extra line blank. The avoidance of ascenders and descenders clashing, would make the writing more attractive and more legible.

Also, if your lettering were slightly wider, this would also aid legibility.

IMO the very best Italic lessons are in Tom Gourdie's books. Although out of print, they can still be found occasionally, on eBay.

Here is a small example of his everyday handwriting.




Ken
« Last Edit: March 19, 2016, 04:16:38 AM by Ken Fraser »

Offline chesterter

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Re: italic exercise for your comments
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2016, 09:30:27 AM »
jean,
sincerely thanks for the long pieces of comments and i'm touched that you spend so much time to answer my questions. :-*
i've met my teacher this afternoon, and her comment is, my style should be some kind of pointy italic.. but when i review the very original examplar from her, when is quite round. . . (i just discovered she gave me 1 set at the first lesson, but we never go thought it ;( )so from now on i'll find some examplar i like and copy from it to enhance the stability of my writing.

about the spacing and density issue, after i showed my teacher my work, she REQUIRED me to
1) use smaller nibs (medium n fine min of manuscript) to copy the sonnets again, so to see the difference
2) use the 2B nib, but break each line into 2 lines
and try to make flourishing stuff .... so i'll keep you all update too ;)

Thanks for reminding the C, E, O issue, i'll practice  stirctly
Thanks for giving me the name "Sheila Waters", i'll do some researchs in library

yes, i am using a cartridge pen for italic (Manuscript 2B), but also i have some dipping pens,
however i cannot manage the dipping pen with broad nibs at the moment,
so let's see if things get better when i use the medium nibs first

Calligraphy newbie from Hong Kong.
Commetns and Critique are welcome ;)

Offline chesterter

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Re: italic exercise for your comments
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2016, 09:46:47 AM »
Ken,
Thank you for your comment and I'll use smaller nibs, to see if the writing can be improved ~
And I'll look for Tom Gourdie's works and books too 😊
Calligraphy newbie from Hong Kong.
Commetns and Critique are welcome ;)

Offline Elisabeth_M

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Re: italic exercise for your comments
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2016, 01:48:55 PM »
Sheila Waters book, Fundamentals of Calligraphy, is really wonderful. It is absolutely worth investing in, imho.  I have it and I find it both useful and inspiring.  In addition to other scripts, she has a large section on Italic and variations of Italic and there's a great section about varying Italic letter width and style (pointy vs rounded) and spacing.  Her main Italic ductus has more rounded lettering and I started out with something much more pointy, so I'm sticking with that original exemplar I started with but applying much of what she's written about to my pointy Italic.  :) 

Your difficulties with the dip pen may have something to do with the nibs you are using.  Your instructor probably already mentioned this to you, but, Italic/broad nibs can be either fairly stiff or somewhat flexible.  The flexible ones can be difficult to get used to because if you write with a heavy hand the pressure will allow more ink to flow through the nib and that affects your thicks and thins.  Mitchell Roundhand nibs have a reputation for being difficult for newbies because they are more flexible than other brands.  Brause nibs are more stiff.  The Leonardt roundhand nibs that come with the Manuscript dip pen calligraphy set are somewhere in between.  I like all of the above depending on the paper and ink I'm using and how stressed I feel that day (if I'm really stressed, I have a very heavy hand and press hard while writing and it gets to be a mess if I'm using the Mitchell nibs, but usually I strive for a very light hand and if I am able to achieve that, then I love the Mitchell nibs).  I disliked the speedball nibs because I found the narrower sizes too scritchy while I wrote.  Also, they were harder to clean because the reservoirs don't come off (or at least, I haven't figured out how to get them off easily).  I've heard good things about Tape nibs, but I haven't tried them.  At any rate, you may have better luck with your dip pen if you try a different brand of nib.
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Offline Ken Fraser

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Re: italic exercise for your comments
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2016, 06:29:02 PM »
This is my own Italic minuscule exemplar. It was written at a slope angle of 5 degrees from the vertical with a Rotring ArtPen fitted with a 1.9 nib and filled with Parker Quink black ink. The paper was white Mondi IQ Selection Smooth 100gsm. This is a slight reduction in size.

Ken


Offline chesterter

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Re: italic exercise for your comments
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2016, 03:08:34 PM »
Elisabeth, thanks for he nib suggestions I will surely revise your comment when I buy nibs 😁
As I'm a super heavy hand person, i think I need it really takes time for me to learn handling dipping pens calligraphy ~

Ken, thanks for the examplar 😊 And all your suggested detail ~ by the way I am using manuscript 2B nibs, J herbin ink or Manuscraphy cartridge (blue n green), with some random paper (as you see, they're some university papers that I just found last week at home, n I have been graduated for 4-5 years already 😁) thus I do agree with Jean then may be I should use some well-quality papers next time ~
Calligraphy newbie from Hong Kong.
Commetns and Critique are welcome ;)

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: italic exercise for your comments
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2016, 03:41:57 PM »
Yes, better paper and different ink should help.
The larger Speedball nibs are beginner friendly - sizes 0 and 1. Smaller sizes, not so good.
I learned on Mitchells, but had personal instruction about how to make the reservoirs fit properly. I do not recommend them if you are completely self taught.
Brause and Tape have the reservoir attached and are beginner friendly.

I honestly can't tell much difference between Mitchell, Tape and Brause. For me, light or heavy hand doesn't affect my nib.
There are as many opinions as there are scribes - so your best bet -with broad edge- is to try all four and see how you like them.

My favorite beginner ink is walnut ink. Stick ink is also very cool and beginner friendly. I have not found any inks made for fountain pens that I enjoy with nibs.