Author Topic: Pointed pen variations  (Read 7316 times)

Offline sybillevz

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Pointed pen variations
« on: November 01, 2015, 04:54:12 AM »
Hi,

I am currently trying to learn Mike Kecseg's pointed pen variations (from the speedbal textbook) and I'm stuck with one movement I can't seem to achieve. How do you get that pointy flick at the bottom of the letters ? I can do a pointy end leaning to the left, but not to the right... It looks very, very wrong !
I know some of you can do this wonderfully well, and I was hoping you'd have some advice to give me  ;)

Thanks !

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: Pointed pen variations
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2015, 10:19:25 AM »
if i understand what you are asking, there are 5 rows of a-b-c... in script above the numbers
the first three have rounded transitions between letters and the last two have pointed bottoms

notice that there is more pressure at the very beginning, then as you travel south, you ease up and the middle of the stroke is thinner
(sometimes called waisting)
then at the bottom as you are applying more pressure to end the stroke, the widest part is at the very end and when you know you are at the end you lift up
- letting the tines snap closed and at the same time, make a slight motion to the right to create that little point.
it would take me a while to get in the groove to do them perfectly since it happens pretty fast.
i don't think you can do them in slow motion, but, i could be wrong about that.
there are all kinds of subtle motions that can make a difference.
sometimes you can rock up and make the nib more vertical - to make a pointed ending.
and it looks like he might even leave the pen down and the stroke leading into the next letter comes out of the previous stroke just slightly above the pointed bottom.
so there might be a pause at the bottom - and you could rock your hand with that pause.

i remember watching Michael teach at IAMPETH and he bounced along with that beautiful rhythm that you see the masters executing.
as Sheila Waters says, when you are analyzing a style of writing you look at 7 characteristics and no. 7 is the speed.
some of the details are functions of speed.

hope that helps

Offline sybillevz

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Re: Pointed pen variations
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2015, 02:19:36 PM »
Thank you for this, Jean !
I was talking about the pointy ending of the stems of b, h, k, p, q... in the second row. But your explanation is very helpful anyway, as it helps me understand the kind of movements I need to do : pressure at the beginning of the stem, release a little the pressure then pressure again at the end of the stem and quick release to make the tines snap while doing some kind of rocking movement to the right to get the pointy end...
That's quite a lot to think about, and to practice... I'm going to have fun !!
Does anyone know if there is a video of this movement ?   

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: Pointed pen variations
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2015, 03:54:17 PM »
i am not certain that there is a rocking movement at the end. it might be done with a slight pull to the right and a little pressure and no rocking. if there is some additional movement, it's hard to tell what it would be by just looking at the letters. sometimes you roll your hand or you can twist the pen holder slightly. there are so many different little nuances when you get into the details. i hope you find a video because sometimes that is the only way you can figure out how they are making the strokes. i remember getting help from someone on the main Spencerian stem and the trick was to just squeeze the pen holder as you went into the curve. i had been rolling my hand to the right and what i needed to do was -stop- the roll and just squeeze. i never would have figured it out on my own. but it was pretty easy once i saw it demonstrated.

i only mentioned the rocking motion as a possibility.

Offline sybillevz

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Re: Pointed pen variations
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2015, 03:07:54 AM »
Thanks Jean, I've tried it a bit more yesterday but couldn't get the right look. I'll have to keep trying different things, but a video would surely be very helpful. I see what you mean about the spencerian stem : once you understand "the trick", the shade just appears *effortlessly* at the right place.
I'll keep on searching for a video.

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: Pointed pen variations
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2015, 08:33:16 AM »
Thanks Jean, I've tried it a bit more yesterday but couldn't get the right look. I'll have to keep trying different things, but a video would surely be very helpful. I see what you mean about the spencerian stem : once you understand "the trick", the shade just appears *effortlessly* at the right place.
I'll keep on searching for a video.

one more thought on this. sometimes *less is more*.
sometimes, when people see a subtle slant or a curve, they put too much slant or curve into their lettering and they over-slant or over-curve.
so maybe the motion you need as you get to the end of the stroke is just a simple -nudge-

Offline evjo

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Re: Pointed pen variations
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2015, 11:47:53 AM »
I am currently trying to learn Mike Kecseg's pointed pen variations (from the speedbal textbook) and I'm stuck with one movement I can't seem to achieve. How do you get that pointy flick at the bottom of the letters ?

Sybille, would it be possible for you to post a picture of what you are talking about?   

I don't have the Speedball Textbook..  Yet. 
Ev

Offline Linda Y.

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Re: Pointed pen variations
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2015, 01:54:01 PM »
You can see some examples in iampeth Master Penman Barbara Calzolari's work:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/8764890@N04/

And here is a video - you can see how she does the pointed ends of the stems.



Offline sybillevz

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Re: Pointed pen variations
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2015, 04:13:50 PM »
That is so helpful !! Thanks Linda !
I have done more progress in 2 minutes after watching that video than in 1 or 2 hours of trials and errors...

Offline Linda Y.

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Re: Pointed pen variations
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2015, 06:15:44 PM »
Oh yay, I'm glad the video helped!

I've been studying this script since 2013 - I fell in love with it after seeing a handout for a workshop being offered in my guild. My teacher studied with Mr. Kecseg and got his permission to teach the script. I took another 4-day workshop with the same teacher earlier this year. I enjoy this script so much. It looks like it's written quickly, but is actually done very slowly. I still need to remind myself to slow down. :)

Hope you have fun with it Sybelle! I can't wait to see your version of this beautiful script.

Offline ExtrasbyAlaina

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Re: Pointed pen variations
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2015, 10:16:09 PM »
Thank you for this thread and merci beaucoup to Linda for that video! Mind = blown! So in love with watching BC's movement.

Offline sybillevz

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Re: Pointed pen variations
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2015, 02:31:26 AM »
Yes, this script style is fascinating and a lot more trickier than it looks.
I'll have to get a lot of practice before I dare show anything !

Sorry Evjo, I'm only seeing your comment now. Do you still need a picture ? I can't post the whole examplar, but maybe a close-up of the stroke ?

Offline KayleenO

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Re: Pointed pen variations
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2015, 12:20:38 PM »
Hi,

I am currently trying to learn Mike Kecseg's pointed pen variations (from the speedbal textbook) and I'm stuck with one movement I can't seem to achieve. How do you get that pointy flick at the bottom of the letters ? I can do a pointy end leaning to the left, but not to the right... It looks very, very wrong !
I know some of you can do this wonderfully well, and I was hoping you'd have some advice to give me  ;)

Thanks !

Is his full exemplar in the book?
I'm currently admiring his writing in one of Eleanor Winters books but it's just a quote about 5-6 lines long. I'm looking for an actual exemplar!

Offline sybillevz

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Re: Pointed pen variations
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2015, 01:47:24 PM »
No, unfortunately it's only the lowercase alphabet and in very small size.
There is an examplar of capitals variations by B. Calzolari somewhere (google image search) and a full examplar with ductus in Gaye Godfrey Nicholls's book "mastering calligraphy".

Offline Vanportrait

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Re: Pointed pen variations
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2015, 02:14:43 PM »
The video is such a great example! Thanks for sharing. I could watch it again and again ... so special.