Flourish Forum
General Categories => Open Flourish | General Discussion => Topic started by: Nickkih on February 24, 2014, 10:07:15 AM
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So I started off learning pointed pen with a straight holder and then started using an oblique. I'm a righty. I'm more comfortable with the straight. Is this acceptable? And it's funny some day's the pen holder I've been using doesn't work for me. Its like my hands get moody and want a change like my regular pen holder and my hands got into a fight. Lol anyway anyone else experience this?
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ME!! ME!!! I'm constantly fighting with it since I seem to be able to use both. I think the main difference shows up when you look closely at the letterforms and see one side has a bit of a raggedy edge. Is this the main reason the oblique is recommended????
I know some of the online classes recommend the straight holder but I would guess it's because they're teaching "contemporary or modern calligraphy that doesn't have so much of a slant.
I'll wait for the pros to chime in as these are just my newbie observations. ;)
Ellen
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Oh Ellen I'm so glad I'm not the only one. You made my day :) ;) when I use the straight my enter and exit stroke are shaky so maybe your right the straight is good for modern and oblique for cooperplate.
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as a side issue...I'm not sure how the nib should lay in comparison to the oblique holder.
But looking at the above photo, is it as easy as laying the holder down and matching the nib to the flat of the holder?
Hope that makes sense. but you wouldn't believe how many practice pages I've done with the nib off set to the oblique holder
(for spencerian)
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There is no right or wrong here. It really does come down to personal preference. If you feel you can do better with a straight holder, then that is completely acceptable. :)
Ellen is correct about the edges. But what it really comes down to is the angle at which you hold your pen and the direction you are/will move to achieve thicks and thins. I think, in my personal opinion, the oblique assists with the angle of the nib to the page which helps me apply even pressure. And slant of the letters doesn't really have anything to do with it (in my case) for modern calligraphy and calligraphy straight up and down without a slant. But yes, the oblique is much better at enabling the 55 degree slant for copperplate.
For me, it is the curves and fine hairlines that benefit the most from the oblique. Which I suppose is counter to what many might experience with flourishing since straight holders are often used for off-hand flourishing. However, I see much more shaky lines from other artists who use a straight holder (v. an oblique) for lettering. But that is just perception, not a hard and fast fact.
I think it really comes down to what you learned with. I find people struggle more initially when learning with a straight holder v. an oblique but once you learn to finesse the pen, there isn't much difference.
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Thanks Erica. I struggle to master both holders. I bought a really nice oblique from John Neil but I like the cheap speedball oblique better. Funny
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I should also add that off-hand flourishing also called for a completely different pen hold than writing which may account for the preference of a straight holder.
With a few exceptions of some very well-trained calligraphers (and more so those from Europe), I think many of those offering online classes or selling starter kits started with a straight holder because they did not have formal training in pointed pen calligraphy.
Previous to the last three years or so, the majority of pointed pen classes, workshops, or textbooks would recommend the use of an oblique holder. But there you have the "birth" of "modern calligraphy." Rebels and rule breakers they may be! ;D
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Nickki,
I wouldn't try to master both. I would choose one or the other and then practice with that one. Otherwise, you may hinder your progress. ;)
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Also, I love the look of the wooden holders, but I can't use them. They are too smooth or small or "something" and fatigue my hand quickly or make it ache.
Sharyn, I'm not quite sure what you mean? Can you try to ask it a different way so I can help? :)
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Erica - you hit the nail on the head! That's why I don't like the wooden expensive one I got, it's too something. It's beautiful but I just can't get it to work in my hand. And I think your absolutely right. I will stick with the straight and progress. Because I do feel its holding me back trying to master both. Thanks again Erica :-)
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Erica - you hit the nail on the head! That's why I don't like the wooden expensive one I got, it's too something. It's beautiful but I just can't get it to work in my hand. And I think your absolutely right. I will stick with the straight and progress. Because I do feel its holding me back trying to master both. Thanks again Erica :-)
I prefer an oblique, but both Copperplate and Spencerian can be done with straight holders. One thing to consider is that you might not have a properly setup oblique, and that might complicate things. The speedball plastic holder is worth about as much as it costs (i.e. not much!). For the ones with a metal flange, you should set it up correctly, and make sure that the nib is properly seated, too. Joe Vitolo has a couple of videos on this topic on the IAMPETH website, if you're interested.
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oh my goodness you guys.
dear oblique pen holder...where have you been all my life. ;D
like alot of you, i started out with a straight pen. just got my new oblique holder today in the mail. it works so well with the way i hold my hand and my pen. my hairlines and connectors are so much nicer. thanks for starting this conversation and for the motivation to try it!
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Soooo here it is!! Erica, you may want to delete my thread.
It seems that all the newbies are going through the same stuff at the same time!
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It's all good. It's good to have it in more than once place! Here is the link which I think has a better explanation and includes a link to an informative diagram from Dr. Joe Vitolo at IAMPETH.
Oblique v. Straight Pen (http://theflourishforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=430.0)
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I got the simplest oblique holder from paper ink arts. But now, am thinking, it's not really for me :( Or maybe it just needs getting used to. My hand feels weird when I write with the oblique holder, and my letters go all wonky...
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Same here - for me it just feels weird to use (although maybe I should have kept at it for more than 10 minutes...).
Perhaps one day I'll try again with more dedication, but for now I'll stick to my straight holders, both for flourishing and for writing :)
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I feel it is one of those "start as you mean to go on" things. Once you become comfortable with the straight holder, you most likely won't switch over. Some do, but it is like learning all over again. ;)
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It's so interesting to read everyone's preferences! I learned with an oblique, and so when I switch to straight (which I rarely do), my hand starts to hurt after a few lines. With an oblique, I can write for hours!
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LOL! My lettering looks like a 3rd grader's with a straight holder. ;D
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An oblique holder was a revelation to me - suddenly those low capital stem shades I'd been struggling with started making themselves. Apparently some people maintain that they're only appropriate for Spencerian and Ornamental Penmanship, as opposed to copperplate, though why that should be escapes me entirely.
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Do you mean the swelling point on the stem which is near to the baseline, like in the Spencerian D? It's true, it's higher up the stem in Copperplate /engrossers, and is supposed to thin out again before it reaches the baseline. Nothing to stop you mixing and matching different styles, though!
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Replaced by a new posting 08 03 21
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Hello FrenchBlue Joy, yes that's just what I mean. I have my doubts whether I've got the hang of the attachments system here yet, but all being well there ought to be a nice little swirlicue by C P Zaner accompanying this by way of illustration. Also, I now remember that it was Paul Antonio (no mean penman in either style) who voiced reservations about oblique holders for copperplate in one of his seminar videos on Vimeo, but I still don't understand his reasoning.
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I hate to beat a dead horse here but I want to bring up some points. I still am not conformable with a oblique holder after 7-8 months what ever it is. It just feels unnatural in my hands. So here are my point please note none of these opinions or facts are mine. I got them off from Wikipedia and Paul Antonio's Copperplate class. If you do not know Paul is a Master Scribe in London who is a very successful calligrapher. here are the point (from wiki. or Mr. Antonio)
copperplate was created in around
1604 by Lucius Mataro (sp)
dipped steel pens where not created till 1803 with a possible letter mentioning a steel pen in 1724-1726.
So obvious they used quills before the steel pen was invented (this is what I assume may be wrong) quills are not oblique so how did they write Copperplate with them?
Paul concern with oblique holder are as follows: The way you have to hold the nib flatter to the paper the tines open more easier, which is good for Spencerian
which is why you will fond him using a oblique holder for Spencerian only.
Also the tines do not snap back as readily and requires more control with the oblique holder. Plus you move along alot faster and as you write since you are pushing the script in another direction the angle might change from 55 degrees to 60 if not careful. And you can not do the proper T and Q without having to move the paper or holder the holder sideways. There is a video accompanying all of this which he said.
So to rap it up I am sorry if it is long winded, I have ask IAMPETH and they told me to use the oblique in ALL pointed pen. If I took a lessen from Paul he would want me to use the straight holder, which is more comfortable to me. What do you my fellow peers think or your opinion?
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Brad, no-one can say that you haven't given the oblique holder a fair chance after 8 months, and you're under no obligation to persevere with it if you don't get on.
I'm neutral about this business of whether an oblique holder is suitable for roundhand because I have no copperplate experience whatsoever. As you say, plainly a straight pen or a quill will work, so the answer from IAMPETH sounds rather doctrinaire to me. If memory serves, in addition to the things you mention Mr. Antonio also says that the line of universal beauty has a tendency to change into an asymmetric Spencerian capital stem shade with an oblique. There may well be a grain of truth in that, although frankly, I wish that tendency was more pronounced. ;)
There's a strong case for right handers using an oblique holder for Ornamental Penmanship - in fact the style is partly defined by it - but otherwise I see no reason for putting up with discomfort if you're getting results with a straight one.
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I started out with calligraphy over 2 years ago and since then, I've mostly been using a straight holder. I do have the plastic oblique fr Speedball and it was only very recently that I got myself a wooden century(...) oblique fr John Neal. I'm ok with both, I prefer using a straight so far, only because I can't always fit the oblique into the ink bottle (hahaha -- I do realize that this is easy to solve :o).
But it is quite helpful for beginners to learn with an oblique so they can "lay" the tines of the nib evenly and not hold the nib in an awkward position. :)
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I think whatever your preference is is fine. I started out with a straight but switched to a oblique and I love it. I use the straight for Modern calligraphy and sometimes for flourishing. I had a few custom holders made by Brian at Unique Obliques and I find them much better than the speedball or century and I have both of those too. Brad give that Beautiful holder that Brian made for you a little bit more of a chance before you throw in the towel on Obliques altogether.
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As Andy said, you certainly gave the oblique a fair try and if you're more comfortable with the straight holder I'd stick with it. It really should be what you feel works best for you.
Paul's reasons for using a straight holder are valid but it's all down to comfort and what you're accustom to. I have no problem turning the paper to finish off a T because the overall experience with an oblique for me is far superior to a straight holder (I would have to turn my paper at an insane angle to get the slant on my letters without the right tine ripping into the paper). I would have a hard time giving up the flexibility of a flange in terms of customizing my nib angle and tilt. I've tried a straight holder and while it's great for certain things I can't do any slanted work properly while others have an easy time doing it.
I would never tell anyone they absolutely have to use one over the other, do what works and enjoy calligraphy.
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I think whatever your preference is is fine. I started out with a straight but switched to a oblique and I love it. I use the straight for Modern calligraphy and sometimes for flourishing. I had a few custom holders made by Brian at Unique Obliques and I find them much better than the speedball or century and I have both of those too. Brad give that Beautiful holder that Brian made for you a little bit more of a chance before you throw in the towel on Obliques altogether.
I would never throw the towel to that beautiful holder from Brian. I do use it. Most of the time I use an oblique, but was thinking about the above statement.
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But it is quite helpful for beginners to learn with an oblique so they can "lay" the tines of the nib evenly and not hold the nib in an awkward position. :)
That's correct. For the nib tines to spread evenly with consistent shading, the nib has to point at the slope angle. With an oblique holder this is possible with a comfortable, normal handhold, but is very difficult with a straight penholder unless you are a contortionist (or left-handed). Here's an example of the tines opening evenly.
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Check out Dr Joe Vitolo's "Demystifying the Oblique Penholder" on IAMPETH. He explains it much better than I can. Suffice to say that I disagree with the above reasoning. For the right-handed it's uncomfortable and extremely difficult to write attractive traditional Copperplate with the nib pointed at the 55 degrees angle with a straight penholder. Rotating the paper helps a bit but the tines twist and the shading suffers accordingly. In traditional Roundhand, it was written with a stiff quill cut to a very narrow edge. Hairlines were produced with the corner of the edge of the quill tip. This practice was discontinued with the later invention of the flexible metal nib. The oblique holder makes life much easier with attractive lettering and no hand fatigue.
This was (of course) written with an oblique holder and a conventional tripod pen hold.