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Tutorials => Copperplate Tutorial by SMK => Topic started by: Salman Khattak on September 12, 2016, 03:56:51 PM

Title: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on September 12, 2016, 03:56:51 PM
Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2

This group has two strokes. The inverted ‘i’ stroke and the compound stroke. These are shown below.

(https://theflourishforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthesixapp.com%2Fsmk%2FCopperplateLessons%2Fstructure-inv-i.gif&hash=1e5e80374b2f16495e0c66fbe68fe807)The inverted ‘i’ starts with a hairline midway between the base and the waist lines. As it goes up, the hairline curves slightly in the clockwise direction until it reaches the waist line where the shaded stroke will begin. The down stroke starts with a gradual shade that achieves full width about ⅓ rd of the way down. The nib naturally moves to the right during this stroke causing the right tine to form the curve. The stroke is completed by drawing the full width all the way down to the base line.
(https://theflourishforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthesixapp.com%2Fsmk%2FCopperplateLessons%2Fstructure-compound-curve.gif&hash=9263b7dde7c7036e39beacd835671481) The compound curve looks a little tricky but becomes simple when you realize that it starts like and inverted ‘i’ and ends like a regular ‘i’. That is all there is to it really.

The most common mistake with this stroke is that the top curve does not match the bottom one. It is very easy to make the bottom of this stroke heavier than the top - a slight difference is acceptable but ideally the top and the bottom should have the same thickness. Watch out for that when you are practising your groups of 5.

Once you have mastered these two strokes, the following letters will be easy to form.

(https://theflourishforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthesixapp.com%2Fsmk%2FCopperplateLessons%2FCuPl8-group2.gif&hash=5315a4a1fcb565b1a509901138b4cab8)

Here is how the letters are formed:

n - an ‘n’ is formed by drawing an inverted ‘i’ followed by the compound curve. The rising entry hairline of the compound stroke touches the inverted ‘i’ in the middle of the waist and base lines.

m - an ‘m’ is formed by drawing two inverted ‘i’ strokes followed by a compound curve.

h - the ‘h’ is formed by drawing a hairline, followed by a full width downstroke that begins at the 1st Ascender line. This line is uniformly thick all the way to the base line. You can go back and square the top and bottom after the stroke is drawn. This is then followed by a compound curve.

y - the ‘y’ is a compound curve followed by a ‘j’ stroke.

p - the ‘p’ starts with a hairline. The main stroke starts halfway between the waist and the 1st Ascender lines. This stroke continues, with uniform thickness, all the way down to the 1st Descender line. Square the top and bottom of the stroke after drawing it if needed. This stroke is followed by a compound stroke.

v - the ‘v’ is just a compound stroke where the exit hairline goes all the way up to the waist line and is finished with a blob like in a ‘w’ or a ‘b’ from Group-1.

Practice these letters until satisfied. Post the following words for feedback when ready.

bin, mint, nymph, vim and one word of your choosing that may include letters from both groups.

Joins

(https://theflourishforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthesixapp.com%2Fsmk%2FCopperplateLessons%2Fjoins%2Ftin.jpg&hash=1a9b236a157583350f43f2b7450e3fad)This join applies to some letters in Group-2. The join for letters that begin with a hairline going all the way to the waist line (‘n’, ‘m’) needs to be a little steeper than normal. This allows for the letters to be slightly closer than if we drew the exit and entry hairlines are the regular angles.

These letters will still be a bit further apart than letters joining from base line to mid-height (e.g. t-i join in the example) but will still look quite acceptable.
(https://theflourishforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthesixapp.com%2Fsmk%2FCopperplateLessons%2Fjoins%2Ftin-toowide.jpg&hash=10ec24a39cdba4379c0164c577516407)Here is what this word looks without the adjustment i.e. drawing both the exit hairline from the 'i' and the entry hairline into the 'n' at the regular angles where they are expected to join the next or previous letter at 1/2 x-height.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: schin on September 12, 2016, 05:30:59 PM
Fantastic explanation!!! Thank you!!!
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Pittipat on September 13, 2016, 11:43:48 PM
These are sooo helpful!  I've been on and off in studying coppy - mostly because I tend to go back to square one after skipping practices continuously (which is often).

Thank you sooo much for sharing these!
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on September 14, 2016, 12:54:48 AM
You are most welcome @Pittipat - It is just as exciting for me when people use these lessons.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: silvereye on September 16, 2016, 10:03:35 PM
Salman,  this is really helpful.  Wait till I learn how to upload photos of my handwriting for critique
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on September 17, 2016, 12:06:23 AM
I am glad you find it helpful @silvereye - I will be looking forward to you joining us.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Mamashag on October 09, 2016, 12:10:29 PM
This is proving to be great study and practice for me. Although I am struggling with several details: the hairlines--their shape, start and finish; width of m's and n's; consistent weight on downstrokes; proportion of weight on main downstrokes vs secondary downstrokes. (hoping my terminology is correct) This week my letter slant suffered. The wider spacing on this guideline sheet forced me to widen my view.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Anjali N on October 09, 2016, 03:15:55 PM
Hi Salman, hope you are having a nice weekend!

Here is my go at set 2!
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: ash0kgiri on October 10, 2016, 02:01:51 AM
Wow @Anjali N. You have made great progress. :D

-Ashok
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Anjali N on October 10, 2016, 07:52:01 AM
@ash0kgiri Thanks for the encouragement!  :)
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on October 10, 2016, 07:55:56 AM
@Mamashag - can you kindly upload a photo/scan directly from the front/top of the writing? The script looks good but I cannot really make out the details I am looking for in the angled shots :-)

@Anjali N - this is a very promising start indeed. Only a couple of minor refinements are needed now.

1. The i-n join is giving you a bit of trouble. The exit hairline needs to turn up slightly more tightly and match the slant at about half way up the x-height. This will give you enough room to make the top turn into the first stroke of the 'n' match the exit stroke. If you look at the i-n join in both 'bin' and 'win' the exit hairline remains steeper than the slant for about 75% of way up the x-height. This makes the top turn into the 'n' too tight. You can see the same in the n-y join in 'nymph'.

For some reason the second stroke of the 'm' in 'mint' also turns too tightly but I'll let that go since the other m's and n's are fine :-)

2. The compound stroke in 'v' needs a bit more work to match the weight and shape of the top and bottom. I too have a tendency to make the top transition into the shade more gradual than the bottom one.

I am glad to see the crossbar of the 't' is nice and level :-)

- Salman

Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Anjali N on October 11, 2016, 10:58:55 PM
Hi Salman, I worked on my i-n join. The connection is a little shaky / tentative, but I think I made some progress on angle. As always, look forward to your thoughts.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on October 12, 2016, 02:33:23 AM
@Anjali N

Hmmm - the compound stroke on the 'v' looks much better balanced but have you stopped lifting your pen at the base and waist lines? Some of the strokes seems to be done a bit too quickly resulting the loss of control. For example, the shade of the 'b' in 'bin' starts tapering at about 1/2 x-height, the shade of the compound stroke in 'n' doesn't start to taper until 9/10ths of the way down to the base line.

The 't' in 'mint' is a beauty though. It's hairline exit would make a nice join with an 'n' or 'm' btw.

I think you will have an easier time of making the i-n (and similar) joins would be to make the join in one go after you lift the pen at the base line after the shade of the 'i'. Also stop and lift at the waist line before drawing the first stroke of the 'n'. You might want to draw a few in pencil before running over them with the nib.

Everything else looks 'within specs' so lets work on a little more precision on the strokes, lifts at the base and waist lines and the i-n (and similar) joins.

Lets work on the words 'twin nib unit' for the next exercise. I will be looking for the following:

1. Uniform shade along the stroke.
2. Proper termination of the shade i.e. don't lift too early, nor too late.
3. Spacing (yours is good btw)
4. Squared tops and bottoms - it is useful to understand that the process of tidying up sometimes makes that stroke longer.

Just focus on the stroke you are making at the time. In the large 'vim' above, you were already thinking of the join to the 'n' when drawing the shade of the 'i' and look what happened to it :-)

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Anjali N on October 13, 2016, 10:21:54 PM
Hi Salman, here is another go with the words unit, twin, nib. Thanks!
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on October 14, 2016, 01:03:23 PM
This is proving to be great study and practice for me. Although I am struggling with several details: the hairlines--their shape, start and finish; width of m's and n's; consistent weight on downstrokes; proportion of weight on main downstrokes vs secondary downstrokes. (hoping my terminology is correct) This week my letter slant suffered. The wider spacing on this guideline sheet forced me to widen my view.

Thank you for uploading a head-on picture. It does look good on all fronts. You have a tendency to draw the compound stroke a bit further away than is needed. See the n, p & h in nymph. The previous m & n in 'mint' are good.

Move on to group-3 - this is where things get interesting :-)

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on October 14, 2016, 01:13:31 PM
Hi Salman, here is another go with the words unit, twin, nib. Thanks!

Lovely work Anjali. Please move on to lesson 3. (where's a thumbs-up emoticon when you need one!)

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Mamashag on October 14, 2016, 01:16:13 PM
Thank you Salman. I will work on that compound curve.
RC
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Anjali N on October 14, 2016, 02:21:21 PM
Yeah!!  See you on the group 3 thread!!   :D

 Have a lovely weekend (and thank you, as always).

Hi Salman, here is another go with the words unit, twin, nib. Thanks!

Lovely work Anjali. Please move on to lesson 3. (where's a thumbs-up emoticon when you need one!)

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: sarthina on October 15, 2016, 05:29:13 PM
Hi!
I'm struggling with my engrosser's and followed @jeanwilson advise to ask for your help. I'll post my latest practice sheet (which you can also find it on Kind Critique section) and maybe you've got the time and patience to tell what's wrong with my writing and where should I insist on. Or anything else you consider important. For the moment, I'm becoming more and more frustrated because of the 'm' and 'n's - can't figure why is so difficult to do them well.
PS Not sure if this is where I suppose to post this, so sorry if I'm not in the right 'spot'.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on October 16, 2016, 03:40:29 PM
@sarthina

You have developed a nice script. It is quite natural to hit a 'plateau' in your learning where practice just doesn't seem to result in improvement. I was frustrated in my studies of Copperplate as well - so much so that I took a break from it for a few weeks before going back to it.

You have made good progress but if I may be quite frank, I think you are doing it the hard way. Using guidelines makes things very easy during the learning stages. They are useful even if you can write well without them. Also, writing at a larger size makes it much easier to see the structure of your strokes and where you are going wrong.

I think just these two things will result in quicker progress. (You can download the 1/4 inch guidelines I recommend from the group-1 thread.)

I have compiled my best advice on how to form Copperplate letters in the tutorials - please feel free to read through even if you don't want to join it. The 'm' and 'n' are formed by the two basic strokes introduced in the group-2 letters. Practicing these will help. However, I would recommend you start with group-1 so as not to miss out on some of the basic vocabulary and techniques we use in these tutorials. Also, I do see some inconsistency in your 'i' strokes that are wedge shaped due to the taper starting a bit too early.

Engrosser's Script (ES) is a very precisely 'drawn' hand. I see that you are making most of your strokes in one go. While your control is good most of the time, ES requires control all the time. My lessons fall somewhere between the more flowing Copperplate and the very precise ES.

I hope this helps a bit :-)

- Salman





Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: sarthina on October 17, 2016, 07:16:56 AM
Thanks for the quick reply. And for the concise explanations. As a matter of fact, I feel a bit dumb: I think I might have misused the terms. I said engrosser's and ...well, I don't think this what I'm after. A "more flowing Copperplate" -like you said- is what I'm trying to achieve. For example I love what I've seen in some of W. Baird's instructions on IAMPETH - though I don't know what term to use for that. On the other hand, it doesn't really matter as long as I stick to one style. ...I guess. Anyway, I'll start with your first group of minuscules and see what's coming up.
Thanks again for your time and sorry for my ignorance.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on October 17, 2016, 01:05:44 PM
I will be looking forward to your participation.

As I have said in the intro, the goal of these tutorials is to develop control and an understanding of the script. While I insist on a particular form and method in the lessons, the idea is not to teach the script as much as develop the ability to analyze and understand the various strokes that make up the script. I only use my examples as a reference point for that understanding. Ideally the students will be able to practice any style they choose after going through this series of lessons.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: baodingball on November 03, 2016, 02:07:59 AM
Hi, finally got the time to post my exercises on lesson 2, so here it is:
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: sarthina on November 05, 2016, 11:06:50 AM
Got the time myself too so I'll post my work for lesson 2. Looking forward for some feedback. Thanks.
Have a lovely weekend everyone.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on November 05, 2016, 02:22:02 PM
@baodingball

Nice work. You have done a good job with your first attempt at the group 2 letters. There are a few tweaks to be made but your basic structure is good.

- The tapering of the shaded strokes should start about 1/3rd x-height above the base line. You have a tendency to leave it a bit too late. Also, you should move your pen to the right a bit as you reach the base line. These will make the bottom turns a bit rounded and better balanced - right now they are skewed to the left a bit.

- This is related to the above. Your exit hairlines go up from the base line rather sharply. This makes the join to the next letter a bit abrupt as well as causes spacing issus. See the exit of the 'i' in the first 'vim'. You have corrected these in the second line but it still appears in 'built' and the 'i' of 'whip' on this line.

- Your i-n type joins are much better on the second line. Just refine them a bit so they are smoother and balanced. They should have the same shape if you turn the paper upside down.

- The top turns on some of your compound curves look a bit too sharp. The path of the pen is in fact correct, it is just that you start the shade a bit too late which makes them appear sharp. We are talking minuscule amounts here.

These are rather fine points but I think you have the ability to execute this level of refinement. Let's have another go at these words.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on November 05, 2016, 02:33:41 PM
@sarthina

I was looking forward to your attempt at these letters. Your sense of spacing and control of the slant are indeed very good. There is not much to fix here.

- The compound curve stroke is not supposed to have a curve. The increasing shade at the top and the decreasing shade at the bottom create the illusion of one. The top part of this stroke is the inverted 'i' and the bottom is a right side up 'i'. This means that the  bottom part of the stroke should not go to the left of the top one when placed on the slant line. It is only slightly noticeable in the 'n' in the first 'tin' but then all the compound strokes in 'mint' and 'nymph' on the first line show this. It doesn't always happen but it happens enough to be distracting.

- Start the shade of the compound curve a bit earlier to match the decreasing shade at the bottom. This is a common issue and needs constant correction. I do this all the time and have to make a conscious effort to fix it.

- the tall letters are a bit too tall in my opinion - try them at 1.5 x-height above the waist line. I think they will look better balanced.

The compound curve is the major thing here. It is important enough that it should be handled at this stage. Have another go at these words.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: baodingball on November 09, 2016, 02:48:27 AM
@baodingball
...
These are rather fine points but I think you have the ability to execute this level of refinement. Let's have another go at these words.
...
- Salman

Appreciate the feedback very much.  Here is my second attempt.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on November 09, 2016, 07:35:28 PM
@baodingball

This is very nicely done. You have a tendency to lose the slant a bit. This can easily be fixed by turning the page a bit so the slant lines and the slit in your nib are better aligned.

The lower loops of the 'y' and 'j' are shifting to the left a bit too much making these letters lean to the right. This needs to be fixed but you can work on it along with the next group of letters.

I will be looking forward to seeing your attempt at the group-3 letters.

Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: AngieD on November 10, 2016, 04:30:28 PM
My first attempt at group 2.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: sarthina on November 12, 2016, 03:23:57 AM
Here's my second upload after practicing (not as much as I would have liked) during the week. From far above, like from an airplane, it looks good  :o ...
Waiting for some feedback as usual. And a question for Angie: what nib/pen are you using? Seems like I can't do so thick shades and wonder if it's my nib or something...
Thanks!
PS Oh, don't mind last row - was just trying to see how shading works. More or less...
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: AngieD on November 13, 2016, 05:49:14 PM
@sarthina

I have been using a Brause EF66 nib.  I like it the best of all the ones I have tried, but i am still trying to get a handle on varying the pressure with it.  Sometimes I feel like if I put too much pressure, I am not successful at tapering the bottom 1/3rd of the letter.  This often results in me starting to taper too soon.  Still practicing to get it right :)
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: AngieD on November 21, 2016, 08:49:09 AM
I have been practicing more since my first post.  I also have been working to adjust my pen and think I've finally gotten it right.  I feel like it's had a positive affect on my calligraphy.  I look forward to your feedback.

Thank you,
Angie
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on November 22, 2016, 03:14:20 AM
@AngieD - nice start with group 2 Angie. I am glad to see you have a reigned in the width of the letters very nicely - good work.

Your letter shapes are done well. There are a few minor tweaks needed but you are most of the way there.

- The inverted 'i' shapes are wedge shaped i.e. the shade gradually increases from the top to the bottom. The shade should achieve full thickness 2/3rds of the way from the base line and then be uniform all the way down. They should match your 'i' strokes if you turn the paper upside down.

- The slant tends to 'stand up' a bit - especially on the compound stroke like the first stroke of the 'y' in 'nymph' on the second line.

- The increase and decrease of thickness of the compound stroke at the top and bottom respectively should be uniform. You can see that the top part is much thinner than the bottom in the 'v'.

Lets give it another go with these in mind.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on November 22, 2016, 03:23:54 AM
@sarthina - sorry it has taken me a while to get to these lessons. I have been busy catching up with things.

This is a good start for the group 2 letters. Your script has a nice flowing quality that is quite attractive.

Here are a couple of things to consider for your ongoing practice:

- The branching of the 'm' and 'n' is too high. The hairline strokes of the second and third strokes in the 'n' and 'm' should leave the shaded stroke at 1/2 x-height. Yours are joined at around 1/4 x-height from the top - this is too high and gives the script an Italian Hand feel.

- The shaded strokes are not uniform. This will need some work as this can make the difference between good and merely o.k.

- Your slant is generally good on the 'm' and 'n' you seem to make the first 2 strokes at a higher slant that the rest.

Please have another go at it with the above in mind.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: sarthina on November 26, 2016, 05:29:34 PM
Thanks, Salman, for the valuable feedback. Here goes another upload though I must confess it was a crazy week (the next seems to be the same) and I couldn't practise as much as I would have liked/wanted/needed. Anyway, I really hope you can see there where I cannot... And right me!
Have a lovely weekend.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: AngieD on November 26, 2016, 06:52:56 PM
Not a lot of time to practice this week, but here is my second attempt.  I look forward to your critique.  I really tried to improve the wedge look on the overturns and the shading on the compound curves.  Let me know what you think.

Thank you,
Angie
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on November 28, 2016, 12:21:45 AM
@sarthina - very nicely done. You have a tendency to make the compound stroke in the 'n' and 'm' a bit wavy so watch out for that but you are ready to move to group-3.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on November 28, 2016, 12:28:27 AM
@AngieD

You have indeed improved the compound stroke but the wedge shapes on the inverted 'i' remain - the first stroke of the 'm' in 'mint' i line 2 shows it very clearly although it is present in other places too.. Also, the slant is too upright on almost all the letters. You might want to turn your paper so the slant lines are approximately aligned with the slit in the nib.

Lets give it another go :-)

S.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: AngieD on December 01, 2016, 11:24:24 AM
Another try.  I worked very hard on improving the wedge shapes.  I also worked on the slant.  I am haivng a lot of trouble achieving the correct slant.  My paper is turned almost 90 degrees and I'm still struggling.  Any additional tips?

Thank you,
Angie
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on December 03, 2016, 11:46:22 AM
@AngieD

What an improvement. This is good work. I do see the slant going upright in places but I think you are good to move to the next group.

Your paper should not be so far turned. You should be drawing the slanted strokes into your body i.e. the slant lines should be at around 90 degrees to your body. Your holder should be pointing over your right shoulder (since you are right handed). Move closer to the table if you are resting your elbow on it so your elbow is about 8 inches from your body.

All of this should result in the slit in your nib to be pretty much aligned with the slant lines. This is the test - so adjust things accordingly. Check it often and it will become second nature soon.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: ash0kgiri on December 05, 2016, 12:17:35 AM
Another try.

Amazing improvement Angie. Keep writing. :D

- Ashok
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Chetwyn Clarke on February 21, 2017, 06:56:55 PM
@SMK  First shot at this group of minuscules.  I have to work on joining the shades and hairlines in all of them, and the compound stroke was a bit tricky in some places.  On the fist group of m's, I had a bit of a brain fart, and morphed back into n's.   :o  I'll have another go at them tomorrow.

Chet
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: ash0kgiri on February 21, 2017, 09:06:09 PM
Hi Chet,
Your first attempt is really good. Nice to see you analyse your worksheets. Salman will give his detailed comments. Till them keep writing.

-Ashok
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Chetwyn Clarke on February 22, 2017, 10:15:30 AM
Thanks @ash0kgiri !  Your encouragement means a lot.

@SMK : This morning I was working on joining the different parts of the m and n.  They came out alright; some a bit cleaner than others.  I was also working on the shape of the compound stroke.  Sometimes I start the shaded part a little too close to the waist line, e.g. the first n, and the first p, and then other times I get in more of a hairline before I start the shaded part e.g. the 4th in the second set of y's.

I think I also need to work on the spacing between the different parts of the letters. 

-Chet
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on February 25, 2017, 05:04:38 PM
@Chetwyn Clarke - this is a good start Chet. You are right about the inconsistency in the compound stroke. It takes a while to get it right. I would expect about a week's worth of practice to get the m's and n's consistently right.

What I see is that you are making the first clockwise turn too sharp in the 'm' and the 'n' while the same part of the stroke in the 'y' is more rounded and natural. The first stroke of the 'y' and the last strokes of the 'm' and 'n' should be identical.

Also, you have a tendency to introduce a curve in the shaded part of the compound curve. There shouldn't be any curve in this part - the illusion of a curve is created by the top and bottom turns.

Do not forget to break your strokes at the waist and base lines. It gives you more control and will help get over the issue of making your compound strokes differently in the 'y' and 'm'.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Chetwyn Clarke on February 28, 2017, 08:45:02 AM
@SMK  Hi Salman.  Over the weekend I was trying to work on eliminating the curves from the compound portion, and rounding out the first clockwise turn.  I've underlined what I thought were the better ones.  I think I've been doing OK with the first part of that, but still need to work on making the entry curve more natural. 

Still practicing with the consistency of the compound curve.  A little better in some of the efforts over the weekend, so instead of 40/60 I think I've gotten it up to maybe 70/30 now.  And that darn loop of the y!  Still working on it!

I'll be out for the next three days, but will pick back up the pen when I get back.  Looking forward to your comments.

- Chet
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on February 28, 2017, 12:33:34 PM
@Chetwyn Clarke - I see improvement but as you have noted, more work needs to be done. The break might be good for your Calligraphy - it will let things settle in your head and you will be eager to get back to it when you return. I will be looking forward to it.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Chetwyn Clarke on March 02, 2017, 07:23:11 PM
@SMK - Started off a bit wobbly on this one, but I like where it ended up.  I still have some work to do on the y, but I think the underlined one came out well.  Also, I think the second set of n's and m's came out a lot better than the first.  I was trying to implement what you mentioned in a Group 1 post about it being more about "seeing it", and I think those flowed a bit better when I started thinking like that.  The joins are bit tricky: I think the second attempt at "bin" was the best, but a lot more fine tuning to be done.   

You were right; I felt a lot more relaxed after the break.

- Chet
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on March 05, 2017, 09:22:38 PM
@Chetwyn Clarke - you are on the right track and almost there. The turns at the waist line are just right now. You can bring the hairline of the compound stroke closer to the first stroke on the 'm', 'n' etc.

Start practicing the words now that you have the basic strokes covered. Also, I think your script will look better if the thickness of the shades was reduced slightly - particularly on the longer strokes in the 'h' and 'p'.

I will be looking forward to the next submission.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Chetwyn Clarke on March 07, 2017, 08:32:56 AM
@SMK  First attempt at the words. 

Good stuff: I worked on the thickness of the shades, and think they look a bit better.  The problem here is that now I've started to introduce a bit of taper into them (e.g. the first and second p's), but I think I got it back to where it should be in the standalone "mph".  I also like the majority of the letter forms in the first two lines.

Problems: The letterforms in the last line were poor.  I reverted to the sharp entries to the m's and n's. (Perhaps it was a bit of tiredness; I did go over the 20-minute mark a bit).  Getting the joins right have been difficult, with the compound curve to straight letter joins being the most difficult. I'll be sure to work on those a bit.

- Chet
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on March 07, 2017, 05:53:14 PM
@Chetwyn Clarke - the shade thickness looks much better now. I think your lines might benefit from a bit of speed now - play with it for a bit by speeding up a little but not so much as to lose control. Watch where you want to go instead of at the tip of the nib. See if that makes a difference.

Your slant has a tendency to be a bit upright - are you checking the nib-slit and slant line alignment from time to time? Also, don't forget to slide the paper every 2-3 words.

- Salman

Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: jtandy on March 08, 2017, 08:14:49 PM
First submission. I note my joining between the mph is off in nymph. (My shade on p is off as well, dang just saw that)  Looking for feedback on new strokes. Thanks, -Jim
I added an updated nymph

I've added new features attempts from this morning. I note my compound stroke with my n in bib got too upright. I repeated this word.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: neriah on March 11, 2017, 06:36:22 AM
Hi Salman,

It has been long time since my last practice, I was on a business trip for two weeks and I my bend+choir are recording CD which consumes most of my free time. For the next 2 months I won't have as much time as before but I try to practice as much as I can.

This second group is giving me some hard time, I have problem with upper turn for inverted i stroke and compound stroke. I am doing something wrong but I can't figure out what it is. Sometimes I end up far away from the slant (second nymph). Also, lack of practice has negative impact on long strokes like in p and h which are off slant, not so straight and thicker than I want them to be. I do drills consisting only of long strokes but I need more time with that.

And I need to be more careful with i-n joint, I sometimes forget it is "now" and just do regular exit hairline.

Looking forward to your feedback,

Katja
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Chetwyn Clarke on March 18, 2017, 11:39:28 PM
@SMK   Work has been hectic the last two weeks and I really haven't had much time to practice.  I was able to get in some yesterday and today, and this was today's.  I'm off again for the next three days, so I'll post again once I am back.  Speeding up has helps in some places, but I think I went too fast and got a bit scrappy in places, going a bit outside of the waist line, or not touching the waist line.  I think the slant is getting better, and the spacing is improving. I also think the joins a little better than before, but still have to work on the y!  The bins and mints were almost like warmup, but I think I got into some sort of flow from nymph onwards.

- Chet
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on March 19, 2017, 01:21:18 PM
@jtandy

This is excellent work Jim. There is very little to adjust in this group. The upper turns in the inverted 'i' and the compound stroke sometimes get a bit too sharp. However, you have fixed this very nicely in the large 'nymph' and the 'bin'.

The tops and bottoms (for the inverted 'i', 'h' & 'p') need to be squared. The rest looks good to me except that some strokes are done perfectly in one place and then botched in others e.g. the 'b' in the last 'bin' is just right but the one in the second last example is too pointy at the bottom turn and rather unbalanced. Now that you know what a good 'b' is, the next step is to be able to draw it consistently i.e. at least 3-4 times out of 5 when you do your groups of 5 exercises.

Let us go over these words one more time. Strive for consistently good letters and spacing.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on March 19, 2017, 01:28:36 PM
@neriah

Good to see your work Katja. Your lack of practice shows but the overall letter forms are nicely done - in places. Your bottom and top turns in the 'u' and 'n' in until are well balanced but then the 'til' turn too tightly at the bottom squeezing them together. I would recommend the tighter spacing in the 'til' btw.

Also, the lower loop of the 'y' is coming too far to the left in the middle line. You have done a better job in the last line - that is the example to follow. The shaded stroke does not have any curve, you only start to make the bottom turn of this loop in the hairline part.

Your slant seems to suffer on the right side of each line - are you moving the paper as you write?

A little more practice with individual letters and short words like 'tin' 'min' 'till' etc. will help with resolving the spacing issues.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on March 19, 2017, 01:37:50 PM
@Chetwyn Clarke - your previous submission had more consistent slant and better flow so the lack of practice shows in the work. It doesn't really matter as you are aware of the issues and a little bit of practice will iron them out.

Your strokes are generally very tentative. I really think a bit more practice will make things much better. Also, your nib seems to have had it. either that or your ink is too thick - or both.

Also, the loop of the 'y' is coming too far to the left. The tapered stroke should taper to the right i.e. as it starts to taper, the right side should remain at the slant while the left side of the shade comes closer as pressure is released. Start the turn only after you have tapered down to a hairline.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: jtandy on March 21, 2017, 08:52:10 PM
@smh welcome back! Thought we had lost you. I understand life is busy. Here is my latest
-Jim
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Chetwyn Clarke on March 21, 2017, 10:13:06 PM
@SMK  Thanks for the hint about the nib; it feels better now.

I think I over-compensated on the y's, and now they don't go far enough to the left.  Anyhow, more practice!

- Chet
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: ash0kgiri on March 22, 2017, 01:59:21 AM
@smh welcome back! Thought we had lost you. I understand life is busy. Here is my latest
-Jim

Hi Jim,

This is fantastic progress. Im loving what I'm seeing. Im still not at a level to comment so I will leave that to Salman.

Keep writing,
-Ashok
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on March 22, 2017, 02:24:27 AM
@jtandy

I try to get to it over the weekend if I can't make it during the week but the past couple of weekends were quite busy. I will always come back though :-)

You have developed good control of the strokes. Now it is time to pay attention to spacing. Spacing in Copperplate is almost automatic if the exit hairlines are drawn consistently. On the other hand, it is easy to see variation in spacing too.

In 'nymph' look at the 'm' and 'p' - the spacing between the three strokes of the 'm' and the two strokes of the 'p' should be identical. Can you see that the strokes in the 'm' are closer than the last stroke of the 'm' and the first stroke of the 'p'?  The two strokes of the 'p' are then closer again. Each of these strokes is one hairline (i.e. base line to 1/2 x-height, or waist line to 1/2 x-height) apart. These should be evenly spaced.

The spacing in 'mint' and 'vim' is better even though there are i-n and i-m joins to mess things up.

The closing stroke of the 'b' should not go further away from the main stroke when the hairline reaches 1/2 x-height. At this point, bring the hairline in line with the slant of the letters - or even turn back ever so slightly. This will even out the spacing in 'bin'. BTW - the same applies to the last stroke of 'w'.

The longer strokes are not even all the way through. Also, the bottoms are not squared properly. The squaring should be neatly done. The 'm' in 'mint' needs a lot more attention in this regard.

Lets give these words another try.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on March 22, 2017, 02:33:00 AM
@Chetwyn Clarke

I tend to overuse nibs and often take far too long to realize they are causing me problems. Isn't it a pleasant feeling to know it was the nib and not you causing all those shaky strokes :-)

It is good that you are putting in practice but your basic 'i' and 'l' shapes are showing signs of regression. The turns at the base line are becoming rounded in places e.g. the two 'l's in the last 'till' in the first picture. Also, compare the two 'b's on the first line.

The taper on the shaded stroke of the 'y' is just right. You just have to move the pointy part of the loop a bit to the right and it will balance out the teardrop shape of the counter.

It might be helpful to concentrate on group-1 for a bit before coming back to this one. Your spacing will always be off unless these strokes are done right.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Chetwyn Clarke on April 01, 2017, 11:03:22 AM
@SMK

I might not have been posting, but I have been getting in some practice.  I think I might have gone back too much to group 1, so just trying to find some balance between practicing the two groups.  My hairlines are a bit shaky, and some of the tops of the m's in tummy still need some more curvature; but overall, I can see some improvement here and there.  Will keep at it!

-Chet
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on April 02, 2017, 01:24:23 PM
@Chetwyn Clarke - you are definitely making progress. This is done very well other than the occasional slip.

I think one more go with this group will get you over the hump. Pay attention to spacing, the 'v-i' join in 'vim' is a bit too close, the 'n-t' join in 'mint', on the other hand, has too much space (it should be the same as 'm-i' as both joins are the same). Also, start the upstroke of the compound curve a little closer to the previous shade - almost touching is good and the occasional bleed in is ok.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Chetwyn Clarke on April 02, 2017, 10:30:25 PM
@SMK  Wobbly on the exit for the i in vim, and working on getting the upstroke of the compound closer.  I just have to get over this fear of bleeding into the previous stroke, which makes me a bit conservative. 

- Chet
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on April 03, 2017, 01:17:04 AM
@Chetwyn Clarke

Try thinning your ink a little. It seems too thick to me. It should help with the hairlines.

Make a few compound strokes deliberately touching the previous shade and letting the ink bleed in - it isn't the end of the world if you've got a little bleed into the hairline here and there. It might not look too bad after all :-)

I know I stress form and spacing a lot. It is important to learn these to develop a high level of understanding of the script. However, the rules (or style) should not become crippling either - it is ok to experiment and see what happens when things are less than perfect. Relax and let things play out. You will achieve a high and consistent level of execution with time and patience and relaxation while practicing/writing is a big part of it.

Your last submission is quite good and qualifies you to move on to the next group. Well done.

- Salman

ps. I just love that 'y' in 'tummy'
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: vonking1980 on May 05, 2017, 07:53:37 AM
@SMK
Good Morning Salman. Here are my group 2 words. I feel like I took a step back during our travel week.
I appreciate your help and feedback. Thank you!
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: ash0kgiri on May 06, 2017, 04:06:11 AM
I think the travel break have done wonders. Your script looks good Yvonne. Consistent slant angle and shade thickness. :D
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: vonking1980 on May 06, 2017, 04:59:10 AM
@ash0kgiri I sincerely appreciate the confidence boost, Ashok :)
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on May 08, 2017, 01:35:22 PM
@vonking1980

Very nice Yvonne. There isn't much wrong with that attempt. I wonder why you are not happy with it.

The turns are a tad too rounded. The first two 'tin's have it right and then they progressively get rounder. This makes the spacing a bit awkward and the script loses some of its elegance. The tops and bottoms need to be squared i.e. made horizontal. It is a good habit to develop early on.

When making the turns at the base line, make sure you 'cross over' the line - this will ensure that your turned strokes do not look shorter than the ones that end at the base line like the 'n' in the last 'nymph'. The same applies to the turns at the waist line - look at the 'y' in the same 'nymph'.

I am quite pleased with the i-n joins in your work. You have managed the spacing very nicely except in the second 'yummy' where the two 'm's are too far apart but then I suspect you knew that already :-)

Let's see another attempt at the group 2 words

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: neriah on May 12, 2017, 08:59:42 AM
@SMK - Hi Salman,

My last try was so long ago. I did practice sporadically but decided not to post anything until I start regular practice. From this week I am practicing every day or at least every other day and it should remain like this for the next couple of months :)

I did practice shorter words and paid attention to spacinng. It is better than last try but it is not yet consistent. At least not as much as I would like. My long storkes in p, h and l suffer from lack of practice but I believe it won't take me long to be able to make them really straight and with consistent heft.

As to slant - I was moving my paper as I write but not enough, now I move paper more often and it helps.

All in all, it seems to me I am on the rigt track, I just have to make up for that 3 months without regular practice.

Thanks!

Katja
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on May 15, 2017, 02:25:03 PM
@neriah - Good to have you back Katja :-)

Your letter forms are pretty good but I can a bit of shakiness in your strokes. This will go away quickly.

Be carefuls with your slant. Your 'i' in 'bin' and 'mint' both stand up a bit. The loop of the 'y' should not go to the right - the curve is just suggested by the tapering of the shade from the left to the right.

You need to pay attention to the compound stroke though. Yours have a fairly pronounced curve in them that should not be there. This stroke appears to have a curve but it is just an illusion created by the turns at the waist and base lines.

Also, you might want to increase the thickness of the shade a little bit. It will make it easier to see the transitions.

Looking forward to your next attempt.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: neriah on June 04, 2017, 03:05:46 AM
@SMK - Hi Salman,

I tried my best to correct mistakes you pointed put, I think it is better now. I believe I am not makijg a curve in compound stroke any more and I pay more attention to slant. However, I am not happy with this attempt but it is the best one so far. My "m" and "n" letters look wrong to me, I can't really say why but it just doesn't look right...

Thanks!

Katja
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on June 12, 2017, 08:48:57 AM
@neriah - sorry for being late in replying to this Katja.

The thing that jumps out at me in this attempt is that the slant of your compound stroke is now off. It stands up a bit and that throws off your 'm' and 'n' - it is a problem in 'p' and 'h' as well but the longer strokes anchor the letters better. That is pretty much the only issue issue I see in this one.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: neriah on June 20, 2017, 02:02:02 AM
@SMK - thank you for your feedback and for finding time to comment.

I believe I got the slant right this time. But I think I still have some spacing issues with m's and n's like "n" in "nymph" and "m" in "vim".

Thanks!

Katja
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on June 20, 2017, 11:52:57 AM
@neriah

Katja - the spacing around the m's and n's looks good to me. There will be some variation but the overall texture of the writing is good. The 'nym' part will look a lighter due to two of the 1/5 width ligatures. The 'u' in 'until' is a bit too straight and the the two counters of the 'm' in the 'vim' are not the same - however these are minor variations.

Please move on to the next group :-)

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Sally Ellington on August 01, 2017, 08:40:28 PM
Group 2 practice.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on August 01, 2017, 11:31:38 PM
@Sally Ellington

Hi Sally - Group 2 letters build on the foundation laid in the Group 1 letters. You have not yet mastered the basic 'i' stroke and will therefor have trouble getting the inverted 'i' and the compound stroke right.

For example, your 'i's are 'standing up' from the slant, not uniform in width and the turn at the base line needs work. I recommend going back to group 1 and working on these and the other things I mentioned in response to your previous work. That work will stand you in good stead when you take on the other groups.

Thank you for the much better picture this time. I can see all the detail I need.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Sally Ellington on August 02, 2017, 06:51:21 AM
Thank you, Salman. I realized after I uploaded it and was looking at your comments to others that I should not have moved on to the next group without your "ok" from the first group. I see what you mean with the thickness of the "i". That will help me as I examine my own work in the future. I appreciate your feedback so much.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Vipul on October 01, 2017, 02:04:46 AM
Hi Salman,
Impatience got better of me, and moved on to group 2 without your go ahead. First practice of group 2.
Normal paper
Oblique Holder with Gillott 303 nib
Walnut ink
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on October 04, 2017, 12:58:00 AM
@Vipul - please fee free to practice all the groups. However, It only makes sense to provide feedback for the group you are currently on as the skills build on top of each other.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Vipul on October 19, 2017, 02:29:27 AM
Hi @Salman
Did quite a bit of practice. Enough to realise that I had a few doubts. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but my compound curve is not appearing as fluid as the ones you make, or other old calligraphers make.
Also, am eating away nibs like crazy. Went through 2 Gillott 303 nibs in about 4 hours of practice of the compound curve, so apparently there must be something I must be doing wrong. This nib has also started snagging on fibres of paper.... Same ink, same paper, same nib as the initial lesson, but there managed about 8-10 hrs from a nib, before it started giving issues. Anything you can suggest?
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on October 19, 2017, 12:30:27 PM
@Vipul

Ah - you have gone back to heavy shades and square shapes. I think it is time to lighten up a lot - aim for half the shade thickness you have here. It should tighten up your strokes and produce a more pleasing shape. Also, reduce the length of the long strokes to what I have in the exemplar. This will take you out of your comfort zone for a bit which might be a good thing right now. You will start to see things a little differently.

As for the compound curve, it takes a bit of practice to get it. Did you start with the inverted 'i' practice in groups of 5? The basic strokes are the keys - mastering them is the easiest way to develop competency in Copperplate IMO. Practice each stroke until you can consistently get 3 or 4 good ones out of 5. This exercise also sharpens the eye which is extremely important.

Gillott 303 is a delicate nib with poor quality control. Do not be surprised if some of your nibs are bad out of the box. I usually find about 40% turn out to be bad. But then I find one that will match any dream vintage nib and then all the frustration is worth it. The Hunt 101 has somewhat better quality control and is also easier to control than the 303.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Vipul on October 20, 2017, 11:07:25 AM
@Salman Khattak
After a bit of practice. Changed the nib to Zebra G. I know there are flaws and there is a need to practice to get consistency, but just wanted to know from you if I'm on the right track, or need some basic change.
Thanks, and sorry for repeated posts asking for advice.
Vipul
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on October 20, 2017, 12:34:25 PM
@Vipul

Please post away and ask as many questions a you want. It does not bother me in the least. In fact I appreciate it.

You are getting the hang of the compound stroke. The one in the 'n' in 'bin' looks quite good.

Here are a few observations:

- Your shades are still too thick - it must be hard to do with a G nib. Make them more delicately and you will gain better control.

- The letter shapes are too square still. Look at the space inside the 'n' in 'nymph' - it should be the same as the space in the counters of an 'm' in the same word. The 'p' and 'h' are again too wide. You will be on track if you get all the counters in that word to be the same size as the 'm's.

- Reduce the height of your ascenders and descenders to what I have in the examples. It will highlight the squareness of the letter forms which needs to be fixed.

Keep at it - there is progress even if it doesn't feel like it.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Vipul on October 21, 2017, 04:32:38 AM
@Salman
Thanks for your comments. It's so great to have feedback and know where to focus on.... Shortens the journey so much.
Here is my attempt again. Changed the ink, but there is a bit if bleeding and feathering with this new ink.
Tried to keep the points you said in mind. I think I'm rushing through the letters, and hence me slope is getting affected. Plus, tend to press a little hard on the down stroke, so trying to control that.
Request comment on the letter width and the space of the counters. I think the compound stroke is a lesser problem than the width and size of letters.... Do you agree, and of yes, what should I do to improve on that? Other than practice, because sometimes it feels like I'm running on a spot.
Thanks,
Vipul
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Vipul on October 26, 2017, 10:34:13 AM
Hi @Salman
Yet another practice. Think now I'm just sliding backwards.😣
The first two lines are with Gillott 303 nib. The last two lines are with Zebra-G nib.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Vipul on October 29, 2017, 11:03:02 PM
Hi @Salman
Another practice, after a break of a couple of days. The nib turned really scratchy, so please ignore the ink splatters....
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on October 30, 2017, 10:03:43 PM
@Vipul - sorry for the long break.

Your spacing is still a bit wide. For example, look at the 'b' and 'n' and 'bin': The i-n join i quite nice, the 'b' and the 'n', however, are wider than this 'i-n' join where these should take up a little less space.

I think it is time to put down the pen for a bit and do a bit of careful studying. Study the letter 'n' carefully and look at the proportions - draw a box around the exemplar I provide and see the shape. Now try to fit your 'n' in a rectangle like that. Draw it out in pencil and then ink over it.

Just concentrate on the letter 'n' for now and let me see the results.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Vipul on November 01, 2017, 11:01:05 PM
Hi @Salman
Did a few ns' as you had suggested. Filled a couple of pages.... These are at the end of it.
Thought I'd post it and get your feedback, before I continue with something incorrect.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on November 02, 2017, 01:41:15 PM
@Vipul

This is good work Vipul. You have at least 3 good ones in each group. That is the goal. But more importantly, do you feel you have the sense of the width now? It is o.k. to miss the mark occasionally as long as you know you have missed it - it gives you a chance to correct it the next time.

Let's do a set of 'min' - stop to analyze after each attempt. Show me at least 4 consecutive attempts.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Vipul on November 02, 2017, 02:15:03 PM
Thanks @Salman Khattak for the quick reply. Took you suggestion and spent a lot of time looking at various exemplars of old masters. This width does feel a little restrictive to me, but guess first I need to learn the rules, before deciding if I want to break any...
Here is my attempt at min. A couple are not consistent. Made these 2 lines after writing it a few times for practice.
Ran out of space for the last m.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on November 02, 2017, 09:56:11 PM
@Vipul

Ok- you have a good sense of the width now. Your letters are 'standing up' a bit so watch that slant. Lets have a go at the words for this group.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Vipul on November 03, 2017, 11:44:38 AM
Thanks @Salman for the prompt response.
I had written the words of the group before you told me to write min. Posted them and then saw your msg. Posting both the versions, written yesterday and today.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on November 03, 2017, 01:39:24 PM
@Vipul

This shows progress. You have a good sense of the width of the 'm' and 'n' counters (the inside space) but the 'u' is still too wide. Also, as I mentioned previously, your letters tend to 'stand up' i.e. are more upright than the slant.

Both of these need to be fixed.

In addition to these, you should start squaring the tops and bottoms of your strokes - this will make your lettering look sharper.

You are almost there - just a little more practice will get you to a sound foundation for your script.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Vipul on November 03, 2017, 01:58:37 PM
Thanks @Salman.
Realised that my u is quite wide. Will go over the words of both groups and post in a while.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on November 03, 2017, 04:42:06 PM
It is great that you can see it - that is more than half the battle :-)

BTW - this applies to the compound curve connecting on the right too (as in 'y').

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Vipul on November 04, 2017, 05:19:24 AM
Hi @Salman
Wrote a few words. Tried squaring the tops and bottoms, but that requires a more delicate nib than the zebra g :o. I'll go back to 303 soon and show you the sharpest squares :P

Please ignore the 'tiny' written at the end of the second line... Was trying to see if loose spacing works.

Awaiting your feedback.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Sue W on November 09, 2017, 01:47:43 AM
@Salman Khattak

Hello Salman,  I'm attaching my sample of the work for group 2.  I'm afraid my ink/paper combination for the first line didn't work:-\  ...
so I repeated the exercise using Sumi ink.  I'm looking forward to your critique, as always.  Many thanks, Sue

Oh dear looking here I can see my hairlines joining the P are not good!!  Those long shades are my least favourite, I find it hard to judge the space required to start the stroke....not to mention keeping the down stroke straight!
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Vipul on November 10, 2017, 09:24:38 AM
Hi @Salman
Had to take a break. Came back and tried these words.
Went back to Gillott 303 and wrote these today
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Sue W on November 11, 2017, 12:39:37 AM
 @Salman Khattak


Hello Salman, hope you're enjoying a pleasant weekend. 

I've been trying to improve on my long straight strokes (p) and the joining of the same.  A nice new Leonardt Principal nib is a great help but think I need to keep at it!



Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on November 18, 2017, 01:59:40 PM
@Vipul

Vipul - two things jump out from your latest practice sheet:

1. Spacing for the underturn to overturn joins is too wide - see 'i-n' and 'n-y' type joins. I have explained this in the joins sections for this group. This spacing should be around 1.5 times the space inside a 'u'.

2. The slant of the compound curve is off - it is almost always too upright.

I am quite pleased with the rest of the elements for this group but these two throw off the overall texture of the lettering. I think you will see a lot of improvement after these are fixed.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on November 18, 2017, 02:08:09 PM
@Sue W

Sue - it looks like the group 1 letters have suffered as your focus shifted to practicing the inverted 'i' and the compound curve :-)

The shades on the longer strokes start to taper off too early and the turns at the base line are not consistent. Paying a little attention to these will help.

Your turn-in on the compound curve at the waist line is tighter than the exit turn at the base line. This creates a pointed top that disturbs the flow. It is normal to struggle with this a bit. I still mess this up if I am not paying attention. It will take a bit of practice to get it just right so stay with it. At this point knowing what you are shooting for is more important than hitting the targets.

Focus on these two for a few days and lets see how you do with 'tim' and 'mint'.

- Salman

Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Vipul on November 19, 2017, 08:29:39 AM
@Salman Khattak

Hi.
Have worked on the two things you have mentioned.
Have realised that when ending is a compound curve, the slope goes awry. Tried working on that in the last 3 lines.

Was trying a new nib, so the very wide shadows were just to see it's flex.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on November 19, 2017, 01:27:33 PM
@Vipul

The letter structure looks good Vipul but I can't really make a detailed assessment as the shades are all over the place. You still seem to have a tendency to make the letters too square but you got everything nearly right in 'impunity' on the last line.

I think you have gotten the hang of it. Let me see the assigned words for this group without any experimentation please.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Vipul on November 20, 2017, 11:35:50 AM
@Salman

Hi,

Sorry for the experimentation....
Here is my submission of the words for this group....
Used the same nib as earlier and tried to keep all the points you have pointed out.
Thanks
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on November 20, 2017, 04:20:50 PM
@Vipul

Spacing is still an issue Vipul - both in letters and inter-letter. For example, look at the 'm' in 'him' and 'hymn' - both of them have the second counter larger than the first. Also, the under-to-over connections are too far apart. When joining n-y or m-n, the connecting hairline should be at the slant angle by mid x-height. This will ensure the letters are spaced properly.

Also, the shade thickness of the compound curves do no match the rest of the strokes.

Since the letter shapes are o.k. I trust you can work on the spacing and the compound curve while you practice group 3 letters.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Sue W on November 29, 2017, 10:33:41 PM
@Salman Khattak

Hello, sorry for the break but we've been away, again.
Not to say I haven't been putting pen to paper though, I've lost count of how many sheets I've gone through for this second group.  However will send the last two, which I'm hoping will show better control of my pen and those compound curves :)

Thanks so much for taking the time to critique Salman, much appreciated.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Sue W on December 29, 2017, 05:11:18 AM
@Salman Khattak

Hope you managed a break over the Festive season Salman.
 I posted my practice back in Nov. and this is another copy for the group 2. 
I'd like to hear your critique of my work if you have the time.
Many thanks,  Sue W
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on December 29, 2017, 12:56:05 PM
@Sue W - I am so sorry for missing your previous submission Sue. I totally missed it for some reason. I will try to be more careful in the future.

Things look a bit shaky on this practice sheet. It seems like you have been away from it for some time.

A note on the use of guidelines. It is useful to always 'hit' the waist and base lines with your stroke. What this means is to include the tiny thickness of the line in your stroke. While this doesn't make much difference in your x-height, it does thwart the tendency to turn around too quickly leaving a little bit of space between the end of your stroke and the nearest guide line. These tiny spaces are inevitably uneven and give an unrefined quality to the script. Hitting the guidelines could also be uneven but the variation is pretty much limited to the thickness of the line.

OK - for the letters now:

The shade of the inverted 'i' stroke is expanding into the counter space i.e. the left side of the stroke. When you make the turn at the waist line and start to draw the shade, make sure that the inside of the shade i.e. the left side, remains aligned with the slant guide and the right tine spreads out to make the stroke thicker. This is exactly opposite of what happens at the end of the 'i' stroke. A good check for this stroke is to turn the paper upside down to check if your inverted 'i' has resulted in a good 'i'.

The same applies to the top turn on the compound stroke btw.

The bottom part of the compound stroke begins to taper too quickly. If you cover the top half of the stroke, the remaining part should look like the bottom of an 'i'. You will see that the taper start almost at 1/2 x-height which is too high.

Get these two strokes under control and the letters in this group will begin to flow from your nib with little effort.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Sue W on December 30, 2017, 01:56:10 AM
@Salman Khattak - Thanks Salman....I'm just pleased you hadn't given up on me :)

I just thought I'd post this after I'd tried to correct my inverted 'i' strokes .  I was having a problem with that top turn.....made me think that perhaps I wasn't holding my pen correctly. After lots of practice  I feel I've corrected it on this example, what do you think? (Please ignore the first one)

Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on December 31, 2017, 11:46:27 AM
@Sue W

What a nice improvement Sue. These look much better now. That last compound stroke is a thing of beauty.

I would like the turns to be a bit sharper still but that is an aesthetic choice and the rounded turns you have isn't a bad way to do them.

I still see a tendency to 'grow' the shade on the inside on the inverted 'i's so watch out for it. Interestingly, you don't seem to do that on the compound curve.

Can you make these strokes consistently (i.e. 3 or 4 times out of 5)? If so, let's see some words :-)

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Sue W on January 03, 2018, 12:32:43 AM
@Salman Khattak
Happy New Year Salman, thanks for the feedback on my last try  :)

I hope with this one I've managed to correct swell and also I tried for a tighter turn at the top of the inverted "i".
Perhaps the second was slightly better?

I'm hoping I'm ready to move on to 'ovals' but ...... you're the boss!

Many thanks as always,  Sue
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on January 03, 2018, 06:31:14 PM
@Sue W

Tired of this group already Sue?

Feel free to start practicing the other groups and even majuscules - you don't have to limit yourself to just the group you are on. It is just that the instruction I provide is useful if the previous groups have been mastered to a good degree.

Now for some feedback:

- The compound stroke shape is good but the size of the turns at the top and bottom needs to be consistent. For example, the compound turn in the 'm' and the 'n' in 'mint' in the second picture are different. The one in 'm' is what you should shoot for.

- The slant on that lone 'h' in the last line of the first picture is way off.

- The 'v' needs work. The compound stroke needs to be finished like a 'w' or a 'b' - make the second stroke of the 'v' like you did the 'b' in 'bin'. This applies to the 'w' as well.

- The slant of the letters in 'whip' is all over the place.

These are all minor adjustments that result in massive improvements in your script. You are almost there :-)

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Sue W on January 03, 2018, 11:52:47 PM
@Salman Khattak
 ;D  So that's a definite 'NO' to moving on  Salman!!!

Actually, as I read each point you made and look at my 'sad' example I agree totally!
The idea is to produce a piece of writing that is pleasing to the eye, after all.
Now for the excuses:
I think I was concentrating on keeping the overturns a little tighter and more so the left side of the inverted i straight.  I lack control over the left tine!  As for the "all over the place" whip.........what can I say.

Hey ho more practice.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on January 04, 2018, 12:49:10 AM
@Sue W

I love your spirit Sue.

That 'all over the place' statement sounds harsh. I definitely did not mean it that way.

I believe the best instruction I can provide is to help develop the ability to see all the details. The stroke, angles, shades etc. are just elements we arrange in different ways to produce a pleasing script. In time we all realize that it is the seeing that is important. You already possess the ability to make the strokes - we are mainly working on the refinement of the eye now. You will love the feeling when things start to fall into place.

Also, I do not think your example is sad in the least. It is miles ahead of where you started and serves its purpose of being a stepping stone very nicely. Feedback sounds like criticism because of the very nature of it and we sometimes forget to appreciate what has already been accomplished. You have come a long way.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Sue W on January 04, 2018, 01:10:14 AM
@Salman Khattak

Please know that I was smiling from ear to ear as I wrote that last message.

You are always fair and not at all harsh when you critique my work and I do appreciate it :).
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on January 04, 2018, 02:47:40 PM

Please know that I was smiling from ear to ear as I wrote that last message.


I figured something like that but thought it doesn't hurt to explain one's approach :-)

S.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Sue W on January 09, 2018, 12:11:00 AM
@Salman Khattak

Hello Salman,
 I hope you see some improvement in this example for group 2.  Thank you for your time and patience :-)
Sue
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on January 09, 2018, 01:29:37 AM
@Sue W

Oh yes - this is nicely done indeed. Only a couple of adjustments needed now:

- Your slant is wavering a bit. See the last stroke of the 'm' and the 't' in 'mint - they are both 'standing up' compared to the main slant.

- The top turn of the compound curve is a little too tight at times. You drew it very nicely in both 'm' and 'n' in 'mint' but the it got too tight in 'vim' - nice again in the 'h' of the 'whip' (the 'p' is ok but the 'h' is better).

These are both minor adjustments well within your capability. Let me see the full list of the assigned words with the above in mind. Please note the words don't all have to be written in one go. You can pick the best samples from several attempts and put them together.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Sue W on January 09, 2018, 09:38:20 PM
@Salman Khattak

Hello Salman,  thanks for the feedback :) I'm happier with this sample.......looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Sue W on January 09, 2018, 09:40:29 PM
OOps!  Just looked back and I see a couple of rounded tops to b and p......sorry!
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on January 10, 2018, 12:28:55 AM
@Sue W

OK - I think you have a good handle on the structure. You still need to work on consistent slant. It looks like you are fighting the slant all the way through this line. I suspect this can be easily fixed by just turning the paper a bit counter clockwise.

The tops of the compound stroke is still too tight. Just compare it to the shape of the bottom turn. You have made a few very good ones though - the 'm' in 'vim' is just beautiful. The trick is to start the entry stroke of the inverted 'i' and the compound stroke by starting to go up in line with the slant line before turning around.

You can move to the next group but continue to work on the two items listed above. Add 'm' and 'n' to the letters in the next group.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Sue W on January 10, 2018, 01:19:46 AM
@Salman Khattak

Oh dear....sorry Salman  :(  The 55% slant,  aghhh  I do turn the paper too.  I will keep working on these compound strokes. Not sure why I have such a problem with them but I'm determined to get them right and consistent.

Sue
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Diane Bennett on January 26, 2018, 03:06:16 PM
Hello Salman,

I have done my first practice in this group, and I had a nightmare lol. 

The inverted "i" is not as easy as it looks.  I did a couple of practice pages, and I my turns at the waistline are to curved.  Any advice on how to remedy this would be very welcome as it's something I can't seem to adjust.

The compound stroke was tricky, but I think I made more progress with this than the "i"

I look forward to your comments.

Regards

Diane
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on January 30, 2018, 02:33:35 PM
@Diane Bennett

This is a good start Diane. You will develop a good sense of the turns at the waist line in time. Sometimes the trick is just to stick with it for a bit longer :-)

It is important to remember that the results of your practice are usually better seen when you sit down to write the next time. Often you will find it easier to make the strokes you have been practicing in a following writing session. It can be a bit frustrating at times as we can't see the results but this is where patience pays off. Also, don't practice for more than half an hour or so at a time. Play around for as long as you want but your focused practice sessions should be short.

Keep at it - you are going in the right direction in both analysis and execution.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Diane Bennett on January 31, 2018, 04:22:17 PM
@Salman Khattak

Hello Salman

Thank you for the reply and suggestions.

I have cut my practise time and have more play time.

I have attached today's practice and look forward to your reply.

Regards

Diane
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on March 02, 2018, 08:22:49 PM
@Diane Bennett

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you Diane. Things are getting back on track and I should be more regular with the feedback now.

You have a nice rhythm and consistent slant. I would like to see the taper part take a bit more space - right now you are only using about 1/4th of the x-height for the tapering part - it should be about 1/3rd. Increasing the length of the taper will give your letters a slightly more rounded look - right now they are a bit too rectangular for Copperplate.

Also - try playing with a slightly wider spacing. Let the strokes breathe a bit.

The compound stroke has a tendency to 'stand up' a bit.

The loop of the 'y' (and 'j') need to be a bit wider and a bit pointier at the lowest point. The widest part is around the 1st descender line.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Diane Bennett on March 04, 2018, 09:34:38 AM
@Salman Khattak

Hello Salman, it's very nice to see you back, no apology needed and thank you for the feed back.

Please excuse my ignorance, but I don't understand what you mean by tapering.  Is it on the overturn?  Do I need to bring it down a little more before I apply pressure? 

I will try to get a photo on later indicating where I think it is I am going wrong as I am struggling with this stroke.

Regards

Diane

Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on March 04, 2018, 09:59:52 PM
@Diane Bennett

Hi Diane - sorry for using confusing jargon. The tapered part of a stroke refers to the part of a shaded stroke where you start to lift off i.e. taper off, and the stroke starts to become thinner as a result.

In the context of the 'i' stroke, you start the stroke at the waist line at full width of the shade, bring it down 2/3rds of the x-height and then begin to reduce the pressure (i.e. lift off to start the tapering part of the stroke) while simultaneously moving the pen slightly to the right until you come to a point (i.e. zero shade) at the base line. This is where you lift and put the pen back to start the hairline exit stroke. The last 1/3rd of the shaded stroke is supposed to be tapered i.e. decreasing in width.

I hope this clarifies things but please feel free to let me know if it does not - or if you have other questions :-)

- Salman

Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Diane Bennett on March 05, 2018, 12:02:29 PM
Hi Salman,

Thank you for the explanation.  I don't know where my head was yesterday as it's plain to see what you meant today.

I have tried to implement the taper and hope there is some improvement.

On a separate note, in the word Nymph I don't seem to be able to get the exit stroke from the P to the H.  I have tried to remedy it but always looks like the exit stroke on the P is missing.

I look forward to your reply.

Regards

Diane
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on March 06, 2018, 01:16:16 PM
@Diane Bennett

Diane - your shades are a bit too heavy causing problems with the spacing. Reduce the weight of the shade by about 1/3rd and you will see a difference. It will take a little practice to get the proportions right but you will start to see the difference right away.

Also, the over and under turns are a bit too rounded. A lighter weight in the shade will automatically make them a bit pointier (like the pointy end of an egg) - don't fight that, let it happen naturally.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Diane Bennett on March 08, 2018, 02:52:41 PM
@Salman Khattak

Hello Salman

Thank you for the feedback.  I am struggling with this set, but I will get it right sooner or later.

I have reduced the weight in the shade and tried to get a less rounded look, but they still look wrong to me. 

I think I have improved the decender loop of the "y" in the first nymph, but I will await your verdict.

Look forward to your feedback.

Regards

Diane
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on March 13, 2018, 06:45:38 PM
@Diane Bennett

Hi Diane - reducing the shade weight has uncovered the issue with the turns that are a bit too wide for proper spacing. The point where your shaded stroke ends on the base line is a little bit too far to the right. This point should be barely to the right of the right side of the shade. The 'i' and the second stroke of 'n' in 'mint' are what you want. Also, the exit hairline should not move so much to the right, the on in 'i' is good, the one in 'n' goes too far to the right before moving up. Remember the hairline is an extension of the left side of the shaded stroke.

These two things combined will reduce the counter space in your letters making them a bit less square.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Diane Bennett on March 15, 2018, 02:44:35 PM
Hi Salman,

I didn't post my last attempt as there was nothing I was happy with.  This set seem a little better, but still not getting the turns right. 

I look forward to your thoughts.

Regards

Diane
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on March 15, 2018, 03:03:06 PM
@Diane Bennett

You are on the right track Diane. The compound strokes on the 'm' and 'n' in 'hymn' are pretty much on target. Remember the 'inside' transition from the shade to the hairline is quite sharp - it is the outside that makes the curve.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Diane Bennett on March 16, 2018, 01:15:01 PM
Hi Salman,

Thank you for the feedback.  Still not getting the compound stroke, but I think this set are a little better.

Regards

Diane
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on March 16, 2018, 01:41:46 PM
@Diane Bennett

Good work Diane. Now work on the consistency i.e. all the compound strokes should be the same (the one in 'v' is different than the rest).

Also, the loop of the 'j' stroke in the two 'y's are different (the first one is good).

Please post your next exercise when you are happy with it - this is where you develop a critical eye and most of the learning takes place.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Diane Bennett on March 22, 2018, 04:11:17 PM
@Salman Khattak

Hello Salman,

Practice has been pretty rubbish for the last few days, but I am happier with this set.  I have been paying attention to consistency and I hope this is evident.

I look forward to your feedback.

Regards

Diane
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on March 23, 2018, 02:51:07 PM
@Diane Bennett

You are almost there Diane. Your spacing is nicely judged with only a couple of exceptions - this is good.

Here are some refinements to work on:

- Your slant has a tendency to be too upright. This is more noticeable in the longer strokes of the 'h' and 'p'. Try turning the paper slightly counter clockwise when writing.

- The 'j' strokes in the two 'y's are different. The first one is better but still the shade needs to taper off to a hairline by the 1st descender line. The bottom part of the loop is formed by a hairline stroke.

- The compound stroke has a slight curve to it - it shouldn't be there. This is just an upside down 'i' and a regular 'i' joined at the middle - there is no curve in the middle of the stroke.

- The top turn for the compound curves and the upside down 'i' can be a bit too rounded at times. Keep an eye on it.

This is excellent progress Diane. You should be proud of yourself for this work.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Diane Bennett on March 28, 2018, 05:48:51 AM
Hello Salman,

Thank you for the feedback, it gave me a much needed boost.

Practice again has been pretty poor this week, I worked on your suggestions, still not getting the loop consistent on the down J stoked, but I am getting better in my sets of 5 I can usually get 3.

I look forward to your comments.

Regards

Diane
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on March 28, 2018, 10:09:49 AM
@Diane Bennett

As you have noted, you need a little more consistency. It will come with focused practice so it is just a matter of time. The 'j' loop in the first 'y' is lovely. The second one is too wide at the top part.

Spacing in general is very good.. The 'i-n' joins can be tightened up a bit - compare these to the 'm-n' join in 'hymn' which is judged beautifully.

Also, start squaring the bottoms of the your inverted 'i' strokes.

The crossbar of the 't' should be a bit higher - it should be half way between the top of the waist line and the top of the stroke.

I think the next go should do it for you - looking forward to it.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Diane Bennett on March 29, 2018, 11:00:12 AM
Hi Salman,

Practice was a little better today, and I am a title happier with the J, I think I was over complicating it, still not the best, but an improvement.
 
I concentrated on consistency, which I am happier with, but still needs working on. 

The p & h in the second nymph are off slant which is something I don't normally do so need to be careful with them.

Look forward to your comments

Regards

Diane
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on April 02, 2018, 12:15:02 AM
@Diane Bennett

Nicely done Diane. You have already noticed the slant. The spacing is a bit on and off but most of it right on the money (as in 'vim').

You should continue to work on consistency in spacing in the next group. Please move on the group 3.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Foxmorepatty on August 02, 2018, 09:57:33 PM
Howdy, Salman,

Here is a fresh pass at Group 2.  Getting better, surely you have a couple of pointers, though.  Thanks, Patty
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on August 07, 2018, 04:58:29 PM
@Foxmorepatty - Patty, we will come back to this after you are done with group 1.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Foxmorepatty on August 07, 2018, 05:36:45 PM
I know, I was being cheeky ::)  I just posted another go in Group 1.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Foxmorepatty on August 23, 2018, 02:38:11 PM
Working on your pointers, Salman.  I did better with the weight and the slant.  Y still could be improved, as I am sure could some other things you will see.  Some inconsistency with weight within words, such as nymph.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on August 23, 2018, 06:16:06 PM
@Foxmorepatty

I am happy to see you drawing each stroke individually rather than falling into the trap of writing letters. The overall consistency and slant is much improved.

Here are a couple of tweaks to consider:

- The entry stroke for the inverted 'i' and the compound stroke should start at half x-height i.e. it should be a proper exit hairline if you turn the page upside down. This ensures consistent spacing for turns at both base and waist lines. Your entry strokes start way up high causing the letters to be a bit too narrow.

- The loop of the 'y' remains an issue. At this point I recommend you dedicate a practice session or two to just this loop - you can write words like 'joy' and 'toy' but the focus should be getting the teardrop counter shape of the lower loop.  You got it right in the 2nd and 3rd 'y's from the left. The fourth one is a bit too rounded at the bottom.

I will be looking forward to your next attempt.

Regards,
Salman

-

-
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on September 02, 2018, 11:30:39 AM
First Pass in Group 2!

Problems I'm working on:
--Getting Slant Consistent
--Getting Shade Consistent
--Getting Entrance and Exits Parallel and Centered Properly
--Steeper Exit hairlines leading into compound curves

I can see why I was in no rush getting into Group 2! This is VERY challenging.

Thanks in advance, Salman, for your valuable feedback as I journey deeper into Group 2 letters. 
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on September 04, 2018, 11:26:58 AM
Pass Two--2 dates after first post here in Group 2. Cleaning up a few problem areas, but still need work on every problem. Posting several lines to show where my problem habits lie.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on September 06, 2018, 01:53:48 PM
@NevadaDeb

Debi - the image you uploaded is rather small. Larger images let me get right in there and I can see the execution much better - this is one of the advantages of using technology :-) there are things I notice so we still have something to work on.

- the exit hairline going into a compound curve (e.g. n-y) should be drawn in one go. It seems to me that you take the exit up to about 3/4 of the x-height and then the angle changes.

- the exit hairline out of the compound curve is flatter than the 'standard' hairline causing it to 'impale' the following stroke (i.e. join too low). Remember the entry and exit hairlines are drawn exactly the same way.

- the entry hairline for the compound curve is also flat causing it to branch off too high - it should branch off at mid x-height. Turn the paper upside down and it should look like a regular exit hairline going into the following shaded stroke.


Let's just work on these for now. I will be looking forward to the next upload. Remember to separate the strokes:  entry hairline - shaded stroke - exit hairline. (each '-' means a slight pen lift).

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on September 10, 2018, 05:46:47 PM


Hi Salman,

I've waited a while before posting another pass on these letters, hoping to make some real progress on the problem areas. I don't want to wait any more. Lots of practice since then, but I'm finding stubborn habits are difficult to break. Here is an accurate view of where I am today. Not as far as I'd hoped I'd be, that some forward movement. I'm focusing mainly on the exit hairlines And entrance) and trying to hit the center of the x-height for joins. I had to let the slant angle and shade consistency go for now, and try to get the hairlines to happen without that pesky "hitch" 3/4 of the way up.  I really appreciate your attention to detail so that I don't spend months letting new bad habits settle in!
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on September 10, 2018, 10:44:46 PM
@NevadaDeb

Hi Debi - this is good work in terms of spacing and smoothness of hairlines.

Now for some focus on the branching hairlines. It looks like the branching hairlines (as in the second stroke of the 'n' and the 'h') start at a flatter angle at times. Compare the very first 'h' to the 'ph' in 'nymph' an you'll see what I mean. Use the 'h' in 'nymph' as your model for the second stroke.

Round off the tops and bottom of the compound strokes a bit more along with the bottom of the 'i' stroke. Some of these are too pointy and cause uneven exits. For example the last stroke of the 'n' in 'nymph' exits very nicely at the base line but the start of the first stroke of the 'y' is too narrow - it should match the shape of the nice exit from the 'n'. This is easily fixed by moving your finishing point on the base line every so slightly (about half the width of the shade) to the right and the starting point of the compound curve to the left by the same amount.

Also, your strokes should take about 1/3 x-height to go from full width to hairline at the base line and the same to go from hairline to full width at the waist line - this will also help with the above.

Thank you for uploading a larger image. 150 dpi seems like a good resolution for detailed analysis.

Regards,
Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on September 14, 2018, 08:21:05 PM
Not really ready to post yet, as the letters, shading, spacing and branching is still not where I want them, but felt I should show something for my week. I've really been trying, and practicing daily, but it's just slow going for me. Yes, I know the "YUM" is atrocious, the U too round and wide, and I could park a semi between the U and the M. Sorry about that.  Thank you for your patience!
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on September 17, 2018, 01:25:23 PM
@NevadaDeb

Hi Debi. You are almost there. The only two things that need work now are the slant and hitting the waist and base lines consistently. The first branching in the 'm' is still a bit steeper than the second one. The second one is what I'm looking for in all the branching letters (n,m,p,h).

The loop of the 'y' is a bit too thin - you were drawing it nicely in the previous group so it is just a matter of paying attention to it.

I really like the proportion of the shaded strokes at this x-height.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on September 21, 2018, 10:54:47 AM
Hi Salman,

I've had cataract surgery, and I had to make solid guidelines this week because my eyes keep bouncing on the dotted lines of your guide sheet. I just traced over yours with solid lines. I'm still struggling with the entrances and exit hairlines, the slant angle and the joins. I've not made any noticeable progress this week, but I'm hoping that next week I'll be able to see better with new glasses, and when my loopy vision settles down. I want to stick with this group until I have corrected these glaring errors, and am in no hurry to move forward. Thank you for taking the time to share your advice!
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on September 22, 2018, 11:57:17 AM
Eyes clearing up a bit this morning. One more stab at it. Self Assessment.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on September 22, 2018, 05:01:23 PM
@NevadaDeb

Wow Debi - that is such a detailed assessment. I especially love that you stayed non-judgemental - it is easy to be too critical of oneself.

We have to focus on the mistakes while learning but it is also important to take account of the progress we have made. As far as structure and the shape of the strokes go, you are have achieved a lovely combination of delicacy and flow. It is no easy task to have such beautifully judged spacing.

The only thing I would add is the size of the descender loop of the 'j' stroke. It should come a bit lower to about halfway into the second descender space. Taper off the shade by the time you reach the 1st descender and draw the remaining part of the down stroke as a hairline. It will add delicacy to the turn at the bottom and make it easier to get the almost shape of the counter.

The positive thing in all the 'problem' areas you noted is that you already know how to fix these.

BTW - the low entry hairlines in 'nymph' aren't all that bad. They do flow in smoothly rather than impaling the following shade - this smoothness is what we are looking for. Ideally they should meet about halfway up the x-height but the most important element is the continuity of flow which you have achieved nicely.

The 'm-n' join in 'hymn' is a thing of beauty.

Wishing you a quick and full recovery so we get to enjoy more of your work.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on September 22, 2018, 07:27:24 PM
Oh, my goodness! I can't thank you enough for your incredibly insightful comments, Salman. I have struggled (am STILL struggling) with that "J" shape, and you gave me exactly the detailed information I needed to start improving it. I should wait a few days to share, and get more practice in, but I'm too excited to be finally starting to make the delicate shapes. This was the "key" for me--exactly how long the descender should be, and when to fade the shade. The last "y" in this line was wasn't as successful, but I'm starting to get it, and that is EXCITING! Whooo! I love learning. And I'm crazy about studying in groups of 5, which really allows me to reflect on what I have done successfully and unsuccessfully, rather than writing out long lines and making the same mistakes over and over. Those short groupings of 5 really set us up for success. Fantastic tips, and you're a great motivator. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on September 27, 2018, 08:45:13 AM
No new glasses yet, but eyes no longer bouncing on the dotted lines. I'm still seeing minor improvement. I'm pleased with any improvement this week!
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on September 27, 2018, 12:54:55 PM
@NevadaDeb

Debi - there is a clear improvement in your work but you are also noticing more details. This 'sharpening of the eye' is what ultimately determines the level of our work. Yours is going to be of a high standard.

It might be the angle of the camera but the 'p' and the 'h' in 'nymph' appear a bit upright to me. That seems to be the the struggle in this exercise - a rotation of the paper might be in order.

A slight adjustment in the (much improved) downstroke of the 'y'. Try to taper off to the right i.e. the left side of the shade should come to meet the right side - this forms the inside of the counter for the loop before there is a counter :-)

The starts of your shaded strokes (like the 'i' and the 'j' strokes) need to be retouched to make the square and same width as the rest of the stroke. Don't waste your time with creating a square top in one go - retouching cleanly is much more consistent and reliable. Also, start making square 'bottoms' for the inverted 'i' stroke and the first stroke of the 'h' - again by retouching.

The 'h-y' joins seem to be getting a bit wider in this attempt - watch out for that.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on September 28, 2018, 11:35:49 PM
Salman,
Thank you so much for your response. I hate to ask for clarification, but I am confused and cannot quite grasp what you are suggesting. I just want to make sure of what I’m aiming for.

In reference to my downstroke of the “J” form, you suggested that I should “Try to taper off to the right —the left side of the shade should come to meet the right side. This forms the inside of the counter for the loop before there is a counter.”

Do you mean I should start reducing the left side of the shade BEFORE I get to the first descender, rather than target the reduction AT the first descender? Or do you mean the shade should be more gradual in reduction of swell and that mine is too abrupt, too low?

I’m sorry to bother you with this, but I just can’t quite “get it,” and I want desperately to know exactly what I’m looking for so I can change my downstroke at the appropriate point. I’ve been looking at a lot of different scribes’ “Y’s” and there is quite a bit of variation. But it looks like most of them start tapering sooner in the stroke than I have been. Is this what you meant?

Again, I’m so sorry to need to ask for clarification!
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on September 29, 2018, 12:12:28 AM
@NevadaDeb

So sorry if I wasn't clear Debi.

What I meant to say was that the left side of the shade should come to meet the right side. This will give us a triangle shaped shade that is straight on the right side and starts to taper at the base line with the left side of the shade coming to meet the right side at about the 1st descender line. I talk about this at the beginning of this video: Copperplate Tutorial - j, g & q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXJv6pWSrds&t)

Please do let me know if further clarification is needed.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on September 29, 2018, 01:16:21 AM
Salman, you were VERY clear. I just couldn't understand what you meant. But watching your video helped so much. I could SEE what I couldn't understand in writing, and it just became crystal clear. It wasn't your explanation -- it's my shortcoming with written directions. I do much better seeing examples--I'm very much a visual learner.

I had forgotten those wonderful videos of yours that I haven't watched since my first week of study with you. I'm going back to them and studying them in depth now, with more advanced eyes and a better understanding. They are SO helpful for those subtle details. I don't want to practice endlessly, and make no progress -- I'd rather practice "smart," and not let bad habits develop. This has been a real "lightbulb moment" tonight, and I can't thank you enough for taking the time to help me.

I will rest easier knowing I'm back on the path of better understanding those letterform subtleties.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on October 04, 2018, 08:46:54 AM
I feel like I'm regressing. I'm trying to practice in groups of five, and I'm trying to get some consistency. While I'm not happy with my form yet, I can see slight improvement. Not much, but I'll take any forward movement at this point. I'm not discouraged, just confused about where I go from here. Thank you in advance for your advice!
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on October 06, 2018, 12:49:48 AM
I've been feeling defeated, and decided I needed to try some new words. So I did. I figured new letter combinations might give me the boost of confidence I needed to forge through this! Sorry for the double posting.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on October 06, 2018, 01:05:44 AM
@NevadaDeb

Debi - you are far from defeated. You will always have nice flow and spacing - that is yours to keep :-)

The frustration you are feeling is quite normal. It happens to anyone who is diligent with their studies. We learn to see the nuances of what we want far quicker than the hand gains the control to consistently execute the strokes as we want them. This will last until the dexterity of the hand catches up with the sharpness of the eye. Knowing what it is helps deal with the frustration. You are now deep in the 'work hard' part of the game - the hard part is willing yourself to accept that for a time you will not be able to execute things in the detail you see.

For me, it helps to reduce my practice time and increase play time. This gives the hand a chance to catch up with the eye in a much less structured environment and we don't feel the difference as much. Play on with the remaining groups or just write things out for fun for a few days. It won't take long.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on October 07, 2018, 10:10:58 AM
Salman, I can’t thank you enough for your thoughtful, kind and timely response. I took your advice and am having fun this weekend. I just finished 14 birthday cards with alcohol ink panels, and this bastardized version of Cancelleresca Corsiva/Engrosser’s script done with a pointed pen— which was fun to create, but I hope no calligrapher who’s studied historical scripts ever sees. I’d forgotten that I have 40 years of broad pen work behind me, and it was satisfying to play with letterforms I was familiar with, but with a 55 degree slant and a pointed pen. I’m ready now to go back to our lessons with new vigor. You were exactly the prescription the doctor ordered. Thank you so much!
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on October 08, 2018, 01:00:38 AM
Refreshed after a day off, having fun, as you directed. Ready today to tackle the problem areas again. Here's today's practice sheet and notations of problem areas.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on October 10, 2018, 09:17:55 AM
Practice may not make perfect, but it sure shows tiny steps of improvement! First, I crawl...
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on October 13, 2018, 11:52:48 PM
After a month of practicing the Group 2 words, I started getting weary, even though they are not yet refined. So, to keep it interesting, I decided to try out a line of words with each nib I have in my drawer. Salman, I know you advise us not to keep changing nibs -- but this was a special event--meant to keep my attention from wandering, and allowing me to have a bit of diversity. Hope it's okay to post this!

It was actually very helpful, as it showed me why you advise students not to keep switching nibs. It takes a while to get into the flow of another nib, as each one is so different. By sticking with one nib, we can work on consistency with more success. Still, it was a very interesting experiment and was FUN to do! We old birds are easily amused.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on October 16, 2018, 12:42:01 AM
Yet another stab at it. October 15, 2018.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on October 16, 2018, 02:59:15 PM
@NevadaDeb

Debi - sorry for being absent for a bit there. You have done some good work in the meantime.

I do recommend using the same nib-paper-ink-holder combination for your practice but also encourage experimenting during your play time. I spend a great deal of time (and money) trying out different nibs and getting to know how they work with different inks. All of this knowledge makes us better at what we love to do :-)

You are almost done with the group two letters. There is just a little bit of fine tuning left.

If you notice the spacing within your compound curves is quite generous compared to the basic underturn-to-shade join we used in group 1 e.g. compared the m-i space to the space withing the last counter of the 'm' - you will see that the spacing between the 'm' and the 'i' is a good 1/3rd less. This creates a non-uniform texture even if your strokes are well executed. The key to fixing this is getting the inverted 'i' right. Try starting the entry hairline going along the slant guide line for a bit before turning to go up to the waist line - this should move the shaded compound stroke and the inverted 'i' stroke closer to the previous stroke.

I would like you to practice with some words using more letters from group 1. This should help maintain uniform spacing.

I will be looking forward to the next upload.

Regards,
Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on October 17, 2018, 11:44:12 AM
Oh, my gosh, Salman! I am so embarrassed and disappointed in myself for not seeing exactly what you pointed out, regarding the compound curves not being consistent. I have gone back to the Group 1 letters, and am practicing as you advised. I can see I have developed some nagging bad habits this last couple of weeks, and it may take a few days to get my eye and hand coordinated. Thank you SO MUCH for your help and sage advice so that I can maintain some uniform spacing. And thank you for your patience. Red-faced in Nevada...

Debi
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on October 18, 2018, 08:34:15 AM
Working on entrance and exit hairlines and joins. I really appreciate the advice -- it's making a big difference. Yes! Thank you so much, Salman. Your guidance is always right on target and gives me "lightbulb" moments of clarity.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on October 22, 2018, 06:00:36 AM
Sorry to post so many passes at this group, but I seem to refine some things every few days, and posting them is a good way for me to document my progress, and see my mistakes on a large screen. Thanks for all your advice. I may not be "there" yet, but I'm seeing some refinement in entrance and exit strokes, especially coming out of the compound curves.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on October 22, 2018, 12:05:49 PM
@NevadaDeb

Hi Debi - you are making good progress indeed. There is only one thing I would like you to focus on at this point.

Keep an eye on the angle of the hairline strokes as you end your exit hairlines and when you begin the entry hairlines that go up to the waist line (for the inverted 'i' and the compound strokes). The angle at the end of the former and the beginning of the latter should match the slant guide's angle. This will ensure that the exit hairlines merge nicely into the following shade and the shaded strokes are not too far apart. It is a simple thing but makes a lot of difference with the spacing. Your strokes end and begin at a shallower angle than the slant.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on October 28, 2018, 04:18:24 AM
Yet another stab at trying to change bad habits.Concentrating on exit and entrance hairlines, getting them not as sharp. It's a long process reprogramming the mind to eye! Thank you for the continuing advice, Salman.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on October 28, 2018, 04:22:05 AM
Ohhhhh, NOOOO! I accidentally posted an older one I did on Oct 22, and had already posted. SO SORRY! Here is today's attempt.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on October 29, 2018, 04:38:39 AM
One more try, a day later and 8 hours more of practice. I went back to Group I and practiced the letter stems, and tried to figure out just where I was beginning to go haywire. I think I'm improving a little after more practice on the inverted i's and compound strokes. I find going back really helps keep me more on track. I am quick to develop bad habits.
Sorry for so many posting of practice sheets. I just feel it changes daily. Looking forward to your input and guidance, as always.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on October 30, 2018, 08:25:50 AM
@NevadaDeb

This is now much more consistent Debi. The spacing has become quite wide, however, that is o.k. if it is what you want but the underturn-to-overturn connections will create light spots at this spacing - compare the m-y join to the t-h join in 'myth'. The extra space is coming from a tendency to draw round curves for the turns at the base line. The roundness of the turns is an illusion created by the combination of the taper in the shaded stroke and the angle of the hairline.

Other than the spacing, the structure and slant consistency looks good.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on October 31, 2018, 10:33:50 AM
Hi Salman,

No, wide is NOT what I want. I was just a stepping stone for "old eyes" to see where I kept screwing up the entrance and exits and joins. I have a problem of practicing too much, and developing poor habits from repetition. So I exaggerated the wide spacing to show that I was trying to get better branching connections. It wasn't where I wanted to go, but where I was at in a very problematic area. I'm now starting to tighten up the spacing. Thank you for bearing with me, and for your patience. I value your feedback, and am backing off on practicing so much because I realize I'm my own worst enemy. I do love this thought that you shared: "The roundness of the turns is an illusion created by the combination of the taper in the shaded stroke and the angle of the hairline." One day, I hope it all comes together --eye, mind, hand, fingers. Thank you for not giving up on me and for being so patient with all my trials and errors!
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on November 01, 2018, 11:36:39 PM
Thursday, November 1, 2018 practice. Working on hairlines, overturns, underturns and mostly diligently on trying to get the slant more consistent in upstrokes.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on November 08, 2018, 11:48:06 AM
Wednesday, November 8 practice.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on November 10, 2018, 08:31:09 PM
November 10, 2018 Practice. Not sure if I'm progressing or regressing. Still working on the elements advised: joins, symmetry, shade consistency, counter consistency, slant/angle consistency. I'm still working in groups of 5, but still having problems getting two lines of words with consistency. I'd be all set if I could just "cut and paste" a better word from all the attempts. Hah! I'm a bit frustrated that I am still struggling with my hand-eye coordination, but I keep reminding myself it's about the journey, and that I'm 70, not 30. Then I take a deep breath, stretch, and go play with the dog for a while. It helps. Thank you for sticking with me, even though it's taking me such a long time to find the consistency I long for. It must be even more frustrating for you to keep reminding me of the same things. But....Please don't give up on me! I'm very serious about wanting to learn, and I won't give up.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on November 17, 2018, 03:57:48 PM
A week after last post. Slow progress, but I think, progress.
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on November 21, 2018, 12:26:14 PM
@NevadaDeb

So sorry for missing so many posts Debi. The system stopped sending me emails for some reason. 

I am quite pleased with the letter forms, slant consistency and spacing of the last exercise. The only issue is that the shade thickness varies a bit but you can work on that as we move along. I think you are ready to take on the next group :-)

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: NevadaDeb on November 24, 2018, 01:43:45 PM
Salman, thank you! You made my year by allowing me to move on into Group 3. I’ve been nervous about moving on, as I know those oval letterforms are tricky and will likely take me a couple months to feel comfortable and get any semblance of consistency. But as you say, “the fun begins.” I realize that’s tongue in cheek, but it is fun to attempt to make new movements, and move into those lovely ovals, even if it’s a super challenging thing. Thank you again for all your guidance! I’ve enjoyed group 2 immensely, even though those compound curves have been daunting. I’m anxious to begin a new challenge!
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Vipul on April 23, 2019, 03:23:53 PM
Hi @Salman Khattak

Getting frustrated and hence turning to you again for help. Unable to get the group 2 (over turn & compound stroke) right. Been filling pages, but somehow seem lost. Tried to reverse the 'u' for the over turn, but somehow not getting it. I think I am missing something, and not about to place my finger on it. Please suggest something.

The compound stroke seems to be at an off angle, and the space between the second stroke and compound turn always seems higher visually, even if it measures correct. If reduced, the letter appears odd. 😣😣

Thanks,
Vipul
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on December 21, 2020, 03:57:04 PM
Hi @Vipul - I know it has been a long time and am not sure if you're still interested in feedback but this might help someone.

I don't see much wrong with the stroke, or its angle, but I do see that you are turning short on both the waist and base lines. This tendency is quite common so you are not alone in doing this. The fact that you see something wrong means you are beginning to identify nuances of form better - it is both a blessing and a curse :-) You will see a difference if you include the waist and base lines in your stroke, the shaded part will cover more of the stroke and it will look better balanced against the inverted 'i's in the letter.

Remember guidelines are just that - guides, they are not bars in a cage to keep the letters in :-)

I hope this helps.

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Vipul on December 21, 2020, 08:17:34 PM
Hi @Salman.
It's great to see you back here. Been a while and a long journey. The feedback is very helpful and I think I've been able to overcome that particular problem over time without understanding the reason. Good to know why it was there.
Attached is something I wrote a bit back @ 8mm. Been unable to write much these days due to..... Life. Experimenting a bit with flourishing, but you'll see that the group 2 has been taken care of 😊
Anyway, hope you're here for good and inspiring & teaching many more like me.
BTW, still awaiting your majuscule tutorials 😝
Regards
Vipul
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Salman Khattak on December 22, 2020, 12:09:53 PM
Good to hear from you Vipul. Given your ability and dedication, I was sure you would have gone past this hiccup. I felt others might benefit from the feedback though.

I have actually been teaching in person and online - just have not had time to manage that and do it here. From the looks of the image you shared, it doesn't look like you need any help with the majuscules :-)

- Salman
Title: Re: Copperplate Minuscules - Group 2
Post by: Erica McPhee on December 22, 2020, 04:04:13 PM
Wow Vipul! Incredible! That is so beautiful!!!  :-*