Straight vs Oblique (one more point)

[JohnK]

I would like to add one more thought to this thread, in case anyone else has had the same thought.
Because an oblique holder is so precisely aligned with the 52 degree angle, I find that sometime it obscures visibility of what I am writing.  In particular, if I am watching my ascenders, I find that they are hidden by the nib until after they are made.  A straight holder (or a ballpoint pen) does not have this issue of obscuring what I am writing, as I write it.
Anyway, just a thought, and maybe a small point in favor of the straight holder.  I still love oblique holders, of course, for the great, even, swells they make.

--John

[InkyFingers]

I have not held an oblique holder.
I have not written with a straight holder.
I have not even an india ink to dip.

So I can't comment on this subject.

I do believe when one have a tool, be it a crayon, a pencil, a pen, or a brush,
One can accomplish the same task as another if one knows how to use it fully to its full function.
However, the production might not be exemplary.

As Andy have pointed out that these scripts were before the steel pen.  There is no rule on which tool to use for which script.
It is a matter of preference, and the ability of the user for that tool.

To me, a straight holder is more versatile, as you can change grip position and flourish.  While an oblique use have to turn the paper.

In the end, it is your fluency and comfort in using a tool dictates your production quality.

As for Pascal, he has long fingers, you can see he uses both finger moments and some arm movements.
I have short stubby fingers, so, I can't do finger moments and achieve the same results....
As Master Penman Joseph Vitolo said .... even JC Ryan, the Handless Penman can do it, so can you.
And I'll bet JC Ryan didn't use an oblique holder.

[Salman Khattak]

JC Ryan did use an oblique holder :-)

The tool is merely a means to an end IMO. The marks you leave on the paper are what matters. Use whatever tool gives you the best results. Different tools and techniques will work for different people.

To say a method or tool is correct, or historically accurate for a particular hand is missing the point IMO. Who knows whether Bickham or Austin or Kippax or any of their contemporaries would have preferred an oblique holder and metal nibs over quills if they had been invented at that time. What we do know is that they took whatever tools were available to them and produced beautiful work with them. That is the lesson I recommend we focus on :-)

- Salman

[Erica McPhee]

To answer your question, I started with an oblique holder. But I learned Spencerian before learning Copperplate (Engrosser's script). 

I prefer a straight holder for modern when not doing an angled script. But otherwise, I find it cumbersome for a slanted script.

[InkyFingers]

www.iampeth.com/lesson/demystifying-oblique-penholder

Three months into dipping.  First three months using only a straight holder.  My experience is this: versatility and freedom of movements.  However, the nibs does catch more when your hand is not textbook.  When your hand is in the textbook position, the nibs are well aligned for both scripts.



Here's my first and only oblique.  The difference is tremendous, a little variation in hand position but still textbook.  Very natural hand position.  A straight holder would have me constantly watch my hand position.  Here, the full arm at rest.  The nibs are well aligned.  This oblique forces me to strictly use arm movement.  Almost 5% at most finger, mostly for shading.




One more point...because of the nib angle to paper, it is harder to achieve a finer hair line with oblique.  Having a light hand helps.  Here's one with a straight holder.

[AAAndrew]

Your writing is really coming along! Good job!

And to confuse even more there are the oblique nibs. I recently ran across a reference from 1838 that says the first oblique nibs were invented in 1831 (very early in the industrialized steel pen timeline) by Morden and Brockeden https://books.google.com/books/content?id=mN9PAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA64&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U2Brmw1aDexfeC1wDN9d5sw2g0SIg&ci=98%2C403%2C432%2C172&edge=0.

[InkyFingers]

Thank you for your kind words...and miles to go before I sleep.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Nice hand!

I see you have what looks like a holder from Arseniy and Olga?  I'm waiting on one of their holders right now. Taking an age to get here though. How do you like the 'ergonomic' shape?

[InkyFingers]

As this is my first oblique, there is nothing for me to compare it to.  Sorry, not much help here.