Flourish Forum
General Categories => Tools & Supplies => Topic started by: hillskip on January 10, 2014, 02:20:27 PM
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What is the useful life? How do you know when its time has passed? Also, while working, should you be cleaning the nib intermittently? What about when you're done for the day--what is the best way to clean everything? Thanks!
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I was thinking about this very thing just yesterday. How do you know when it's time to chuck a nib?!
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Schin posted a really great article in her Tumblr recently that pretty much answers it all!
http://openinkstand.tumblr.com/post/72848119961/hi-schin-how-do-you-clean-your-nibs-during-and-after
It also takes some "feel" to know when it's time to replace. When a great, previously perfect nib suddenly starts to skip and catch no matter what you do, it's most likely time to replace. Master penman Michael Sull also has a tip of running the tip against your thumb - if it's catching a lot, it's time to replace. Some nibs last longer than others. It also depends on the ink you use - some are highly acidic and really eat the nibs quickly.
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Great article from Schin! Thanks Linda!
I must admit, I am not nearly as careful as that. :o I never take the nib out of the holder until that nib is worn out. But I have several holders and I usually alternate between just two nibs (Hiro 41 and Nikko G) so I can do that. I'm kind of a messy artist! :-[
However, I do dip my nib in water and then wipe with a paper towel very frequently while working.
Once you start lettering frequently, you will get the feel for when it's time to dip in the water and wipe your nib. The ink builds up on it very quickly.
One tip that has been tried and true for me... while you are lettering, if you even see a tiny fragment of paper or hair or whatever on your nib, always clean it right then. Even if you have just dipped it into the ink. It's just not worth the risk and mostly likely it is going to cause a smudged hairline. This happens to me quite a bit because I have two cats that are members of the Calligraphy Loving Cat Club. :D (I'm also not a very good duster.)
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Erica, I'm laughing because the last time I sat there and painstakingly wrote out the outfit, my can jumped on the table and smack tab onto my brand new, still wet alphabet. I may keep her smudges! I've had some problems with splatter and blobs--I just cleaned some new nibs (Zebra G ((I think)) and Nikko G) with a bit of toothpaste and an old toothbrush--I hope it helps! Erica, one question--do you think the Hiro 41 is better for someone more advanced? I read that somewhere and have been wondering.
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LOL! Yes, sometimes cats can add a whole new "windswept" look to our work! :D
Actually, I learned of the Hiro 41 from a very experienced calligraphy teacher, Fred Reckker, from Sarasota. He has been teaching for many years and he uses the 41 for his beginner students. I find it the easiest nib to work with of any I have used. It produces a nice variation of thick and thin and is much easier to square off the tops and bottoms. I will say it would not be the best for super fine hairlines.
I especially like it for modern calligraphy as it gives a little bit of a rounded look which I find a bit more playful.
You may be thinking of the Hiro 40 also known as "the blue pumpkin." This was also very popular for copperplate but like other older nibs is more temperamental than the Hiro 41.
I would love to hear others' thoughts on this though. Everyone's touch is different so what works for one person may not be the best for others.
EDITED 04/12/14: Please note - we are currently seeing problems with the Hiro41 nib. Will update when it is resolved.
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I hope that this is not too off-topic – found it a while ago ;)
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/03/130326-animals-medieval-manuscript-books-cats-history/
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Two things:
I can't type long because I have to go back to Paper & Ink arts to order the Hiro 41 and
That is the most perfect article!!! That is exactly what happens!
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LOL! Stefanie - that is hilarious! Yup... that is what happens!
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Trying not to hijack the thread but Erica, I've been told that if you get jelly on your elbows at a girlfriend's house, she is the BEST friend, ever!! ;D
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I use a toothbrush and give my nibs a gentle scrub after each writing session. I'm not good at dipping in water/wiping during the writing process though- I'm just paranoid I'll spill the whole container of water... I should do that though!
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LOL Daisy! ;D ;D ;D That is hilarious! We'd be besties at my house! Jelly, frosting, ink, glue, glitter... It's all good! HA HA! ;D
Sherry, I use a small jelly jar! I'm not kidding, Daisy. I really do! And I cover it with one of the zentangle coasters I gave away when I'm not dipping my pen in. Otherwise, my cats dip their paws in.
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Like Erica, I put a glass of water next to my sheet of paper now and dip my nib each time something becomes weird or at the end of each line. 1/ Your writing will be always very clean, 2/ the nib will have a much longer life. Instead of water, you can use baby wipes, they're working great too.
I also use Sherry's tips at the end of each session (4 or 5 hours), but with an electric toothbrush . If ink has dried on the nib during the practice, it will come out more easily than rubbing with a paper.
@Erica: Do you have an idea in terms of hours/days, of how many time we can keep using a nib like Hiro 41 if we take care of it? I understand It really depends on each one's practice, but this is just to have a idea.
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:D
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Vince, these are very good suggestions. Thank you for sharing. I agree, dipping your nib in the water and cleaning off the nib as you go, really helps maintain crisp letters.
In terms of how long, I can't really say. I have gone through a nib in one 3-4 hour session before (but that might be a stack of 100+ sheets of 8.5x11 practice). And I have had some nibs in the holder for quite a few weeks or a month even that just keeps on going! :D LOVE those ones!
Also, I think it depends on the type of ink you use. I have stopped using iron gall because it was eating my nibs up left and right. I couldn't even make it through a 2 hour session without it snapping. I find if I use gouache or Bleedproof white or water color, they go faster as well.
I'll have to try to track how long one lasts.
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And...not to keep harping on this nib but I find the Hiro41 lasts longer than other nibs I use. It is just the little nib that could! ;D I love you Hiro41! ;D
But for those just learning about nibs - I only use the Hiro41 for more playful, modern calligraphy. Or if I just want to practice or I am learning a new style (because I find it is very forgiving). If I want to do something very traditional, polished, or flourished, I will use a NikkoG.
EDITED 04/12/14: Please note - we are currently seeing problems with the Hiro41 nib. Will update when it is resolved.)
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Thanks for sharing your experience Erica =) Right now I love Nikko G too, for heavy handed like me it's a really good nib (and easy to clean). Hunt 22 is the same "kind" of nib in my humble, I love it too.
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Hi everyone!
Would love to get your advice as the thread above didn't exactly answer my question...I've been going through Eleanor Winter's book, Mastering Copplerplate Calligraphy, the past few weeks, writing 2-3 pages a day of various letters and words, and noticed that at some point, both my Hunt 101 and Gillott 404 nibs just started losing their ink-holding ability. I'll start writing with the same amount of pressure as I normally use, more ink comes out onto the paper (sometimes beading up, other times just resulting in a much thicker line than anticipated) than I want, and messes up my ability to do fine hairlines. I've tried cleaning my nibs with toothbrushes with water and toothpaste, but it still happens. It's not the paper. The tines look approximated and they're not skipping more than usual (I'm just starting out so when they skip, I think it's because of me, not the nib). I'm wondering if this means I need to replace my nibs. I wasn't sure how long they last (sounds like from everyone's answers above, it really varies)...but since I'm no professional, I thought they would last longer!
Thanks so much! Love this forum, by the way...
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@erica - I love the statement "the little nib that could" so cute
My experience is a good nib will last a few weeks. But not if you use iron gall, or gouache.. You will need to replace after (if you lucky) a day or two.
I have a empty jar on my desk which I call the nib graveyard. Lol
I clean the nibs that I think might be done and put in there until Im ready to see if I can resurrect them. I do that before I prepare a brand new nib. I keep trying to give them CPR just in case. ::) :o ;D but at some point I call the time of death :-[ and toss it
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Now that made me laugh out loud Nickki! I used to do the same thing... [maybe they're not really worn out...maybe they'll work again after a little break...nope... still worn out!]
Suzie, what is weird is that is what has been happening with the new round of Hiro41's I purchased (and others have reported about). Usually when a nib wears out for me, it starts skipping and splattering, and feels "rough" when I write. Two to three pages a day for a couple weeks sounds about right for a nib. As Nickki mentioned though, iron gall or gouache will kill it faster.
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Jane Farr (http://janefarr.blogspot.com/) had a great idea for used nibs. She purchased a lamp with an open clear base and is putting all her used nibs in it...
http://instagram.com/p/jNAnzqSAER/ (http://instagram.com/p/jNAnzqSAER/)
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Now that made me laugh out loud Nickki! I used to do the same thing... [maybe they're not really worn out...maybe they'll work again after a little break...nope... still worn out!]
Oh gawd, me too ... you can't get Nikko Gs here in Austria and the shipping is so expensive, so I use them until long after their best before date ... then I put them away and then I use them again to see if I just had a bad day or if they are really dead :P
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You can buy them here for a decent price (3 nibs = 3,99€, shipping to Austria is 6,90 €!):
http://www.j-stuff.de/Zeichenbedarf/Zeichenfedern-Tusche/Federn-Federhalter/Feder-Deleter-Nikko-G-pen.html
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We are trying to resurrect our poor little nibs. The ones that were good to us and have been thrown out. May they rest in peace
But on a serious note, I was taking to my husband last night about this subject (and my funny post) and he thinks there a way to bring them back. He works with metal as he is a machinist. So maybe he can do it. I'll keep you posted on that
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I have to dip my nib in water every few letters and or words because it picks up fibers and makes my strokes too large. At least on my HP PAPER. I purchased some Sumi ink so maybe I it will have better luck with that. If i walk away and ink dries on my nib it will not work when i start back again, so I clean it every time I get up.
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Brad, this is really standard practice. You should continue doing this. I always clean my nib in water and then wipe after a couple of words. Sometimes more than others. Don't ever let ink dry on your nibs. It will ruin them faster. Always clean your nib if you are going to put your pen down.
Also, if you spy a tiny bit of hair or fiber on the tip, even after you have just dunked it in the ink, clean it. Don't try to write with it, it will inevitably ruin your project. I used to think, 'well, I'll just give it a go as I just inked my nib.' Nope ... would always cause a blob of some sort. Just wipe it and redip! :)
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I use Speedball acrylic ink, because I like the green color, and it cleans up easy with water.
BUT, like acrylic house paint, it dries fast, that starts to mess up the ink flow. So as others have said, I have to clean the pen of the dried ink. I keep a heavy glass ink well with water that I dip the pen/nib into, then wipe with a tissue (toilet paper or Klenex), then the pen is back to writing well again. The HEAVY glass ink well is specifically so I won't accidentally knock it over, like I did to a sample vial of ink...ARGH.
At the end of my writing session, I dip into the inkwell and wipe the ink off the pen, and repeat until I can't get any more ink off the pen. Then I go into the bathroom where the exhaust fan is running, and wipe the pen with a tissue moistened with rubbing alcohol. This removes ink that the water did not remove, and the alcohol displaces any water on the nib (so it hopefully won't rust).
I have yet to use a different ink, so I don't know if this process will have to change for the other ink.
If the other ink needs a solvent to clean, then it will have to change.
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Thanks to all for your responses! I've learned so much hearing what you all do to prolong the life of your nibs and I had no idea that the life of a nib could be just a couple of weeks or even days depending on the ink (I'm practicing with Higgins Eternal). I will give all suggestions about nib care a try! Especially will start cleaning and wiping the nibs more while I write.
These resources on this forum are amazing...I'm learning so much the more that I read!
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Thank you Erica, you always make me feel better about doing the things I do. A great help.
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You can buy them here for a decent price (3 nibs = 3,99€, shipping to Austria is 6,90 €!):
http://www.j-stuff.de/Zeichenbedarf/Zeichenfedern-Tusche/Federn-Federhalter/Feder-Deleter-Nikko-G-pen.html
Ouch, that's a decent price? :(
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One nib at Johnneal is 1,55 dollar … so, yes, I think 3 for 3,99 euro is ok? The shipping is a bit absurd, but I think if you order more at once it's ok – that's what I do when I order nibs. I don't know any real life store in my city where I could get decent nibs, maybe apart from the Brause 66 EF which seems to be quite common … I order nearly all my stuff online. It's strange but our equipment seems to be so archaic today that few shops sell it!
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I use a toothbrush and give my nibs a gentle scrub after each writing session. I'm not good at dipping in water/wiping during the writing process though- I'm just paranoid I'll spill the whole container of water... I should do that though!
Sherry
I use a glass ink well.
It is HEAVY and short, so it would be difficult to knock over.
Of course if you are clumsy like me... I put the ink well in a small cookie tray, to contain any spills. I once knocked over a vial of ink ... ARGH !!!! I went out and got the cookie tray the next day.
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That is such a good idea! I am going to get a small tray for my ink holders! Thank you! :)
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So, what are the symptoms of a pen that should be chucked...
1) Catches too much even though it was okay previously
2) Has been corroded by ink - I think discolouration is a warning
3) Has been worked to the point where it has become too flexible and lost its snap
... and?
It could be useful to post a symptom list somewhere.
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I made a list of nib wear factors and comparisons on this blog post: http://openinkstand.tumblr.com/post/78553642755/dear-schin-i-am-so-glad-i-found-your-valuable-and
Dr. Joe Vitolo wrote about it as well: http://www.iampeth.com under the lessons section, getting started, "The Point" PDF.
A method that Michael Sull taught me was to gently run the nib up your thumb. If it starts to catch in your skin, then the metal has gone too sharp and is probably too scratchy for good use.
If it starts feeling too wonky and splatters more than usual, then perhaps it's time to chuck as well. I keep my nibs as long as I can, but if it can't write a sentence without splattering, that's when I toss em. No point ruining a whole piece just to save a nib past its expiry date!
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Thank you for the resource Schin!
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Today, I switched to a new nib for the very first time! Last night my practice work began looking worse than my first attempts at copperplate. Ink was blobbing. I could hardly distinguish between thicks and thins. Bleeding was everywhere. And I was becoming increasingly frustrated and ready to give up on pointed pen. I came back to it this morning and had the thought to change my nib (Nikko G - my only stock yet). The transformation in my letters is HUGE! No scratching. Letters are delicate. No blobs of ink or feathering ink. Yeah...I'm staying with it. I decided to see what the forum community had to say....thanks for all for sharing your wisdom.
Kim
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Kim, if you're like me, you will try to hang on to a nib for far too long! When it starts acting up - scratching, dragging, blobbing, spitting ink, etc. - cut your losses & say, "Goodbye!" As Schin said, nibs are relatively cheap and there is no reason in the world to ruin a piece just because a $1.50 nib has decided to die! Do you have a little pair of pliers? I got a little pair in the jewelry-making section at Michael's or Hobby Lobby. They really help to remove nibs, which can sometimes more or less "rust" into place and put up a fight about coming out! I also use them to insert nibs into the holder, so as to avoid getting oil from my fingers onto the newly cleaned nib!
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I made a list of nib wear factors and comparisons on this blog post: http://openinkstand.tumblr.com/post/78553642755/dear-schin-i-am-so-glad-i-found-your-valuable-and
Dr. Joe Vitolo wrote about it as well: http://www.iampeth.com under the lessons section, getting started, "The Point" PDF.
A method that Michael Sull taught me was to gently run the nib up your thumb. If it starts to catch in your skin, then the metal has gone too sharp and is probably too scratchy for good use.
Just stumbling on to this very useful thread. Thanks for all the useful information!
I noticed that despite all my efforts at fastidiously cleaning my nibs that some are starting to rust a bit. Does that mean I should toss them? Or is their some way to extend their lives a little bit longer? I feel like I haven't been using them that much.
Also, I read somewhere that putting a new nib in flame helps "break it in". Is that true? And do you all do this practice?
Thanks in advance for your answers/suggestions!
Janice
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Just stumbling on to this very useful thread. Thanks for all the useful information!
I noticed that despite all my efforts at fastidiously cleaning my nibs that some are starting to rust a bit. Does that mean I should toss them? Or is their some way to extend their lives a little bit longer? I feel like I haven't been using them that much.
Also, I read somewhere that putting a new nib in flame helps "break it in". Is that true? And do you all do this practice?
Thanks in advance for your answers/suggestions!
Janice
Regards rust:
Keep you nibs dry (after use, of course) should slow rust formation. Storing then in containers with a little uncooked rice works, if you are in a very humid climate. Iron gall ink will corrode any nib after a while, so you could use less corrosive inks/ gouache/ acrylics for practice. If you have rusted nibs, you could remove the rust chemically, and if the rust is not near the point, you could ignore it. If the rust is on the tines, especially where they meet, just toss the nib. As a practical matter, I've found it's just easier to toss any nib that needs any work other than keeping it clean.
Regarding the flame--that's just used prior to using the nib for the first time to remove the protective coating. No more than a second or so in the flame, though, or you could ruin the temper of the nib.
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... I read somewhere that putting a new nib in flame helps "break it in". Is that true? And do you all do this practice?
I do not do this, ever. A match or butane flame burns at a temperature which is ample to draw the temper of a nib and ruin it, and the difference between holding it in the flame for just long enough to get rid of the oil and cooking it is likely to be a matter of very few milliseconds. Too much of an unnecessary risk for me.
I suck them, which isn't recommended either. :P Schin recommends rubbing alcohol (is that what we call surgical spirit in the UK?) which seems like a sensible no-fuss way to clean a new point.
"Breaking in" usually refers to the nib relaxing a bit and flexing more easily. That will happen naturally with use, but strong iron gall ink helps the process along in my opinion.
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I had to look it up and you're right, it is called surgical spirit in UK, it is used to clean stuff and can be found cheaply in pharmacies. Just be careful not to inhale it and keep it away from fire..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubbing_alcohol
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When I broke my first nib (a Hunt 22) it was clear because I'd pressed too hard and the tines separated and it just wouldn't hold ink anymore. I think it's a lot harder to admit that a not-clearly-broken nib is done for, because it's like... maybe today it will behave again? I get strangely sentimental. I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who holds on a bit too long.
I started keeping a dipping bowl near me when I got into using goauche and watercolor, and now I will try to keep it up with regular inks! I find that pen white (mine is Ziller) is the most tough to remove from nibs, and I have a little jar of something I bought at Blick for that. But when it's out, I'll switch to rubbing alcohol -- I bet that's cheaper!
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One further thought--When things start to go wrong, like no ink on the upstroke or too thick thins, I immediately suspect the nib might need changing. Simplest way to check that the nib is the problem is to look carefully at it. I use a 10X loupe. Here is picture of two zebra G nibs, the one on the left is being tossed this morning. That dog just won't hunt anymore. On the right, a new one. The old nib is definitely flattened at the tip, and asymmetrically to boot, and the tines are now a bit misaligned as well. Time for the heave ho.
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Thanks Anasazi! The picture was very helpful.
And thanks to all who answered my query!
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I always use a butane grill lighter to prepare my nibs. I switched to matches when I was at IAMPETH and my nibs weren't working well and I couldn't figure out why. So I tried toothpaste and then rubbing alcohol and then went back to my grill lighter. ;D