Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder

[FrenchBlue Joy]

 

I've never participated in forums, or experienced a crunchy moment watching a calligraphy debate-- so ignorance is bliss, I guess! I figured we were all just saying the same thing, but when one thing would be made reference to, it might be (totally and hilariously) misunderstood and then it took a lot of explaining to make that clear!  But I knew we'd get there, because seriously, there was no disagreement happening as far as I could see!

This is just backstory-- just a web of back-and-forth influence which has shaped a living, breathing tradition.  Like language, always evolving-- and not in a linear fashion!   Which is certainly nothing to get tetchy about or take personally.  The major wrench in the thing is just what's meant when people say "Copperplate"!  I took it for granted in the conversation that it was generally known, that Copperplate is a "new name", first referenced only in the 20th century, and that Roundhand has offshoots in other more recent hands that have been called "copperplate" ever since the advent of the name... (Thanks, Dr. Joe)

Personally, I've learned everything from the amazing people writing and educating for IAMPETH and I don't think there's a nicer, more knowledgable bunch of people anywhere!  I don't think ANYONE there has a reputation for being difficult or taciturn about stuff like this.  I'm of the impression that calligraphers are lovely, warm and the BEST kind of geeks, even when splitting hairs or talking about dry old history!  So yeah, ignorance is bliss--  I've never seen anybody get rude about anything.  The only stroppy stuff I've seen is from ooold Penman's Journal archives from the 1800s-- that must have been a crabby time!  LOL.  Anyway--back to the lovely, warm, family vibe that you notice, Estefa.  I second that.  AND, here's an idea-- we should try to lure Heather Held onto this board-- she's the current President of IAMPETH, and an absolute angel! 

Thanks again Erica for all you do here.   You're a peach!

[Brad franklin]

I love Paul Antonio's work. In fact one of my favorites. He is very kind and will always give you advice
If you ask. As far as the oblique vs straight holder i guess there will always be a debate. I ask iampeth and was told "I should be using an oblique holder for all pointed pen, script,Spencerian, Ornamental, etc. You should use a straight holder for business penmanship and for flourishing". So that is what I have been doing.

[Ken Fraser]

As a professional calligrapher, I always use the title "Copperplate" for this style of lettering, for a purely practical reason.
When dealing with clients, if I refer to "English Roundhand" nobody knows what I'm talking about. Whereas it's surprising how many people understand the general look of "Copperplate" from the name.

Ken

[AndyT]

As a professional calligrapher, I always use the title "Copperplate" for this style of lettering, for a purely practical reason.
When dealing with clients, if I refer to "English Roundhand" nobody knows what I'm talking about. Whereas it's surprising how many people understand the general look of "Copperplate" from the name.

Very sensible, Ken.

Coming back to oblique holders in Europe for a moment, the first known patent was registered in London in 1831, so why they never really caught on here is something of a mystery.  Included in that patent were some cranked nibs, and they have been around here for quite a while (I probably have a few old ones somewhere), so it's not as if the advantages were unknown.  To the best of my knowledge the black Speedball is still the only readily available oblique holder in the UK at least, alas.

[Ken Fraser]

To the best of my knowledge the black Speedball is still the only readily available oblique holder in the UK at least, alas.

Unfortunately, this is correct.

I got my oblique pens from the USA. Postage is quick and the extra expense is worth it.

Ken

[AndyT]

I got my oblique pens from the USA. Postage is quick and the extra expense is worth it.

I've just got my first (from Brian) and agree entirely.  All the same, you'd think that at least one of the UK suppliers would dip their toe in the water and try offering the coloured Speedballs with the brass flange, say, just to see if there's a market for them.  Going by my small circle of admittedly geeky acquaintances, they'd sell like hot cakes.

[Ken Fraser]

I know that it's a silly, perverse attitude, but doesn't it feel good when you finally acquire something that's been difficult to get? It just seems more valuable, somehow! 

Aren't Brian Smith's holders wonderful? I'm really pleased to have my lettering as his site masthead. To be associated with high quality items, is always good.

Ken

[AndyT]

Oh, I didn't realise that, Ken!  Having just taken a look, the penny should have dropped really ... something about the way you do the flourishes.

Brian's holders are indeed wonderful; mine certainly is.  After talking with him there's clearly a lot more to be considered than meets the eye, especially with regard to getting the balance right.  That said, if a hobbyist woodturner in the UK fancied a change from kit fountain pens or lace bobbins and was prepared invest time in solving all the various problems, they might find themselves with a nice little sideline on their hands.

[Brad franklin]

Just to note: Paul Antonio does use an oblique holder, but only for Spencerian Script not for copperplate. He says he knows that if an oblique is in his hand he knows he is going to write Spencerian and if a straight holder is in his hands he is doing copperplate. The ones he uses are custom made, but he seems to have at least one of everything.

[Scarlet Blue]

I use a straight nib holder because I am lazy... i.e. it's easier to dunk a straight holder into a bottle of ink, so I don't have to decant :-) I also feel less removed from the paper with a straight holder... I thought I was bonkers feeling this until I read that Rachel Yallop uses a straight holder for this reason.
I did originally use an oblique nib holder but it didn't really help me because even for my normal handwriting I have my paper at a funny angle... plus the nib holders I now use take all my broad edged nibs and my pointed nibs. I am practical if nothing else!

[Estefa]

Just to note: Paul Antonio does use an oblique holder, but only for Spencerian Script not for copperplate. He says he knows that if an oblique is in his hand he knows he is going to write Spencerian and if a straight holder is in his hands he is doing copperplate. The ones he uses are custom made, but he seems to have at least one of everything.

Hi Brad, interesting! In my original answer I was only referring to the video that was posted in the beginning of the thread . But that sounds quite sensible – not that I want compare myself to him, but I feel there's really is some confusion when I try to switch from Copperplate to Spencerian. For my informal chicken scratch frestyle lettering I use a pointed nib in astraight holder. So I know I can go crazy !

[Estefa]

As a professional calligrapher, I always use the title "Copperplate" for this style of lettering, for a purely practical reason.
When dealing with clients, if I refer to "English Roundhand" nobody knows what I'm talking about. Whereas it's surprising how many people understand the general look of "Copperplate" from the name.

Ken

Hi Ken, I can imagine that!! I just like that in a forum like this we can go as nerdy as we like. I have had clients (as a graphic designer) who weren't fully aware that there are typefaces with serifs and typefaces without. So calligraphy surely would only be "something handwriting-ish"!

The term "Copperplate" is in Germany more associated with the quite gruesome font with the same name (it's not even a script font). Here we call the style "Englische Handschrift" – "English Handwriting", or calligraphers call it "Anglaise". Lots of words !

[Faeleia]

I'm using straight holders, only because the oblique is incredibly hard to get in shops here in Singapore.. I could order them online, but I'm still trying to see if I can work around not having an oblique holder with the mindset of 'Let me practice more and use what I have and be absolutely bloody certain this is what I truly want to do for a long time' before investing and expanding my collection. I also have a slight hoarder impulse with new hobbies, so this time it's taking me effort to hold back.

Currently, I use a straight holder and the ever hardy Nikko G. I've used it till the tips have worn down in its sharpness, but seeing scribes like Paul Antonio use a straight gives me a glimmer of hope that proper Copperplate CAN be done. My problem now is mainly consistency and those flourishes. The lines I have often go askew and catch like his, but I'm a bit reluctant to take time off the foundational stuff like practising basic letters to practice flourishes. Oh, all in time. 

[Ken Fraser]

........ roundhand and copperplate are used almost interchangeably, but they aren't exactly the same thing.   The script style known as copperplate, really is a little more oblique, and a little more jaunty than roundhand, as it is shown in Bickham's "The Universal Penman".

My handwritten script style, which I call "Copperplate Handwriting" for convenience, is handwritten (not drawn as in Engraver's script) and is as close as I can get, to the original copperplate engravings in The Universal Penman.

This is my direct, handwritten interpretation of the style of script in the same volume, by Willington Clark.

[Cheri]

Paul Antonio was the person who enamored me of calligraphy Wow, that was over a year ago. Did I use the right superlative?


An input from a beginner:
I used the straight holder first when practicing the first few pages of Eleanor's book because I was waiting for my order of the red peerless oblique from Paper & Ink Arts. After practicing with oblique I find it easier to do copperplate than with straight holder.

I'm really amazed of this forum. Just wow- the knowledge, history, etc. had my brain fried. There's a lot to take in!