New to italic - looking for feedback

[neriah]

Hi everyone!

Italic has been on my todo list forever. Now I finally have bit more time to dedicate for italic practice.

https://imgur.com/a/qKai6tF - unfortunately I couldn’t attach picture from ipad (jpeg is not allowed, only jpg) so I uploaded it to imgur.

My goal with this quote was to move away from single letters and minimums and to try and figure out how different letters interact with each other. I know that spacing should be parallel lines which works great for some letters but not so much for ‘o’, ‘s’ and similar. As expected spacing is all over the place, and ‘s’ is a mystery to me. Things I do see when it comes to spacing: “substitute” fell apart after ‘i’, ‘o’ in “for” is too close to ‘f’, ‘d’ in “hard” should be moved slightly to the right and ‘k’ in “work” looks wrong but I don’t think it could go closer to ‘r’ (and is off slant).

When it comes to letterforms, ‘s’ is awful, I still struggle with slant in ascenders, and I still have issues with ‘o’ but it’s not as bad as it used to be.

This was done on canson montval paper with sumi ink and leonardt round 2 nib (no reservoir, loaded with brush).

Looking forward to feedback

[K-2]

@neriah -- Your italics are looking really good!  Lots of people would be very happy with what you've presented, but of course, we're quite critical of ourselves, aren't we?  And we all want to refine our technique.  I find that tackling one element to refine at a time helps me not feel overwhelmed.

For ascender angles - try practicing with a grid marked with the correct angles.  I find working with grid helps with spacing too.  There's a guideline app specifically for broad edge scripts posted in this part of the forum: http://ductus.josselincuette.com/

For that "s" - have you tried tracing over exemplars?  That can really help lock in the proportions and build muscle memory and confidence.  "S" is difficult, but once you catch the trick of it, it's pretty fun to work out all the variations in other broad edge scripts; keep working at it!

--yours, K

[neriah]

@K-2 thank you for the feedback!

I did have drawn guidelines while writing (baseline, x-height, ascender and descender lines, 5 degree slant and 45 degree pen angle). I erased them afterwards to make it look more like a finished piece. My daily practice is also done on drawn guidelines. It’s just that with this nib ascenders are long and I am so used to 55 degree pointed pen slant that my italic ends up tipping over.

I did not trace exemplars, I do that only if nothing else works. I need to understand how every letter is created and what makes it look good. If I don’t understand that I find it very hard to improve my script because I can’t focus on smaller elements and practice them until I can execute them well consistently. I’ll try to spend more time with s, if I don’t get it, I’ll trace over

Best,

Katja

[jeanwilson]

Since you mentioned the difficulty with different angles - one of my suggestions for learning italics is to start with vertical (no-slant) italics.
It is a beautiful variation -

Also, people prefer to learn all 26 letters at once, and find it tedious to slow down and just work on groups of similar letters.
If you work on smaller groups of letter you will establish muscle memory.

Start with i l m n t h u y j  (r f )- spend some time on those letters first - put together into words - or just random combinations - and then gradually add in the letters with o shapes -
o c e d g p q a b
and eventually - add in k v w x z s

There are so many variations to italics - shortening ascenders and descenders is another way to simplify things so that you are concentrating on the way the parts fit together.
You goal of understanding how each letter is created is exactly what you want to do -- maybe try learning by the groups and see what happens.

[K-2]

@neriah -- @jeanwilson gives great advice on grouping letters and developing muscle memory, and also on trying a vertical variation of italics. When I'm practicing (whether a new or a familiar script), I often do that.  And certainly, in the paleography textbook I'm writing, I present letters in those groups and advise students to practice them that way.

I'll also put in another plug for tracing, although I understand what you're saying about wanting to comprehend each letter intellectually and aesthetically - I personally find that intellectual understanding comes much later in my own learning process.  Tracing really helps me separate out how I think a letter should be formed, from how it actually is formed - it can help to separate the brain from the hand, and develop that muscle memory in the hand without the brain interfering.  When I want to learn a new letter-form, I always trace it straight away! (both at the original size and also really big)  It makes me feel like the scribe that made it is holding my hand and teaching me what s/he did to create it, like when I used to curl my hand around my children's hands, teaching them how to write and paint.  I'm always joking that Adam Pynkhurst taught me English Batarde.

If you're already using guidelines with an angled or straight grid, you could also try putting the vertical grid lines closer together - Placing them at "n" distance apart will help your eye follow them more easily (as you'll be tracing directly over them with ascenders and descenders).  Putting them closer together will also help you gauge letter width and spacing, both within and between words.

If you want to see letters interact with each other as you practice in groups, try putting an "i" in between the letters in the group you're working on.  Then do it with a "u" in between" then "o" "e" and "a" as you work up to the next group.

--best wishes noodling in the new year!  K

[neriah]

@jeanwilson thank you for the feedback!

I will try vertical italic, but I suspect straight lines will give me trouble too - I am so used to that 55 degree angle I find it very hard to adjust to something less severe.

I did start learning in groups. I followed Patricia Lovett’s videos on youtube and she presents letters in groups. However, after some time my practice did become less structured and all over the place. I will go back to practicing in groups as you suggest.

@K-2 that is an interesting view on tracing. I certainly haven’t considered it from that point of the view. I personally start with the brain side of things due to not having as much time as I want for calligraphy. I use my lunch break, waiting in lines, and other downtime to just look at exemplars and try to understand as much as possible without having my pen with me. That way, that time I do have for practice is spent the best because I am already prepared and know exactly what I want to focus on. I also find it less frustrating - I am having a very hard time letting my brain go. I think about every stroke I do and I don’t know how to just use muscle memory. Trying to use muscle memory and failing is what frustrates me because I can’t point to exact spot which is wrong and say if I do this and that it will look right. To be honest, I think being able to stop thinking of every stroke would help me to have more practice time because I would be able to practice after work. Right now I can’t focus enough after work to have any meaningful practice sessions.

I do line some sheets with slant lines closer together but I use those for single letter practice because spacing isn’t all even and at some point where letter should be and where slant line is won’t match. I find that confusing and it messes my spacing because my brain wants the lines to align. Right now spacing between my slant lines is approximately the width of 3 ‘n’ letters which is enough of a guideline but it’s not confusing.

[jeanwilson]

I just ran across an exemplar from Peter Thornton - one that he has indicated is OK to share.
I scanned it at 300 DPI and it is probably too large to attach to this post, so I will link it to my blog.
When I open it on my desktop, the details are pretty good.

While I did recommend upright (no slant) -- this exemplar shows a very slight slant.
This reminded me of conversations with both Sheila Waters and Peter - where we noted that it can be very helpful to use your natural penmanship slant when you approach italics.
If you have a consistent slant in your everyday penmanship - that slant is already etched into your muscle memory - so if you use that slant, that is one less thing to think about.

I also love how the exemplar shows many variations for italics. There is a beautiful lightness to Peter's italics that make them more personal than a tight, regimented italic.
Notice his serifs. They are a little different - and IMHO - much more stylish. Plus, they are easier to do. It is a very subtle serif instead of the more traditional *fish hook* serifs. Fish hook is not a typical term. I use it (along with pigtail) to describe serifs and flourishes that are a bit clunky.

The 4th example with the wider form and flatter pen angle has a more traditional serif -- and it looks very nice with that variation.

https://pushingtheenvelopes.blogspot.com/2020/01/bonus-post-peter-thorntons-italics.html

[Erica McPhee]

Looks beautiful! @neriah I just changed the settings to allow jpeg files as well.