Flourish Forum
General Categories => Broad Edge Pen Calligraphy => Topic started by: The.SardaarJi on January 18, 2017, 12:58:54 AM
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Good Morning Everyone
I am hoping everyone is good and in high spirits.
I am working with Calligraphy layouts and formatting this week. I have tried to do some *Fancy* formatting to a Calligraphy quote, but the output was quote crappy ( I admit that my Calligraphy is not so good, but the output seems more crappy then that ;) ) .
It would be great , if someone can help with suggestion, materials, some calligraphy formatting, ideas :) so that we can all can get befits from it..
Wishing you guys a good day ahead.
Regards
Aman
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Hi, I like the quote. here are my thoughts (I'm an total novice, so these comments are from an art appreciation perspective):
The side bar that you've painted is visually distracting... I find myself staring at the bar and not the words. Maybe you'd want to change the composition here somehow to create a visual flow from the decorative side bar into the words.
Also, given that the quote is about oceans and water, I think the color choice is weird... I'd personally find this more beautiful if it had blues / grays or somehow evoked the sense of being in the ocean or water.
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Because you already have a lot of skill and design sense, I think you are a candidate for serious study of design. You and I would probably point to the exact same things if we were to brainstorm ways to improve these layouts. Spotting the problems is not difficult. Figuring out the best fix requires some lessons - at least for most of us.
Frequently, people think they can just sit down and apply a layout to a quote. In my reading and classes on layout and design, it is suggested that you need to start with a pencil roughs and figure out how the words will fit into a pleasing layout. You spend quite a bit of time with pencil before you even pick up your pen and ink.
Sheila has three chapters on layout an design. They cover pretty much everything a person needs to know. Interestingly enough, most of the information is available through other sources on the internet. I do not have time right now to research and post links to design lessons. Maybe there are others who can suggest some good links.
The subject of design has come up before and it doesn't go very far. My fellow teachers and I have noted that many people are put-off or intimidated by the idea that you can learn design. It is not rocket science. There are elements and principles. If you work through the basic lessons of design, it is like riding a bike. You have tools that will serve you well for the rest of your life.
If you want to get serious about learning design, let me know. I do have a series of lessons of my own that I might be able to tailor to this format.
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Jean is so right! Design is a skill that can be learned. Sadly, not many people take the time to do so. So I am glad you asked! There are a few good posts on design here at Flourish:
A short tutorial I created covering all the basics: Designs Tips for Calligraphers (http://theflourishforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=1987.0)
A link to a nice blog post by Patricia Lovett:
Designing a Festive Piece (http://theflourishforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5378.msg66997#msg66997)
More posts on Design and Layout: Design/Layout Process (http://theflourishforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=406.msg3780#msg3780)
Hope that helps!
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I'm sorry - I did not mention anything in particular about your lovely piece! I offer the following constructive feedback:
1. The quote is referencing the ocean - but your color scheme is red and green which are more earth tones.
2. I like the sidebar as a decorative element - however it is a bit too wide and as Brad said it distracts from your lovely lettering which is the main focus. It competes for the viewer's attention. This is a good opportunity to implement the Papa Bear, Mama Bear, Baby Bear concept. You want your viewer to first see your lettering (Papa Bear), then the side bar (Mama Bear).
3. In regard to the sidebar, since you are talking about the ocean, perhaps you could use the brush to mimic the shape of waves.
4. For visual interest - perhaps you could pick out one or two words from the quote to focus or enhance - either in a different style, larger, different color, or somehow different (this would become the mama bear and the sidebar the baby bear).
I hope that is helpful and I hope you give it another go. I'd love to see another variation. :)
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Let the text influence the design... for example your quote is "Anger can rage till it tears you apart"... the important words could be Anger, Rage, Tears, Apart.. So let those have prominence in the design. Less important words can be smaller or less important. Then arrange everything so the eye follows the quote easily.
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Sheila [Waters] has three chapters on layout an design.
Here's one of them in pdf format, courtesy of the University of California, Santa Barbara:
Foundations of Calligraphy: Design and Layout, part 4 (http://www.arts.ucsb.edu/faculty/reese/classes/artistsbooks/Waters.pdf)
Whilst being aware of this sort of thing is undoubtedly a good thing, slavish following of "rules" is not, in my opinion. As an antidote to formulaic thinking I can recommend pretty much any of the writings of Paul Klee, but in particular the notebooks. Always feel free to experiment.
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Thank you for adding to the discussion.
None of us with formal training in design were taught that we should slavishly follow rules. Learning the elements and principles of design give people a vocabulary to discuss design and make decisions. Design lessons teach us to edit and make decisions. Experimenting is a wonderful thing - but at certain point, you need to step back and access the situation. Running through the list of balance, contract, texture, and all the other words associated with design is a reliable way to identify and resolve what may be missing from the work or what might need editing.
The article by Sheila Waters is from Letter Arts Review. She wrote a series of articles for the magazine that were then compiled and edited into a book. If this article looks like a boring set of rules, it is because it is just a small portion of a bigger picture.
Most people who study design absorb the information and use it daily. It's like learning the scales in music, or the positions in ballet. Design is a framework that supports the imagination.
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Oh, did I speak out of turn?
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Hello @brd4790 ,
Good morning my friend.
Thanks for your suggestion and feedback and your time :o) . You comments are feedbacks are precious to me :) .
I am glad you like the quote, it's from one of favorite #Sufi poet "Rumi".
Thanks for your suggestion on the "Visual bar", yes it's seems distracting :( . Also I never give a thought about color choice according to the quote, thank's for a wonderful idea. I will keep in in the mind.
I will redo this quote again..
Thanks a lot bro and have a nice day.
Regards
aman
Hi, I like the quote. here are my thoughts (I'm an total novice, so these comments are from an art appreciation perspective):
The side bar that you've painted is visually distracting... I find myself staring at the bar and not the words. Maybe you'd want to change the composition here somehow to create a visual flow from the decorative side bar into the words.
Also, given that the quote is about oceans and water, I think the color choice is weird... I'd personally find this more beautiful if it had blues / grays or somehow evoked the sense of being in the ocean or water.
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Hello @jeanwilson
- Because you already have a lot of skill and design sense, I think you are a candidate for serious study of design. You and I would probably point to the exact same things if we were to brainstorm ways to improve these layouts. Spotting the problems is not difficult. Figuring out the best fix requires some lessons - at least for most of us. | Do I have these? Design Sense and Skills? , if you thinks Yes, then thanks a lot for your compliments. To be honest with you, I really want to write quotes in Design, I am not happy by writing quotes in just regular way, in line after line :( , I am happy to work with you on this, if you don't have any issues.
- Frequently, people think they can just sit down and apply a layout to a quote. In my reading and classes on layout and design, it is suggested that you need to start with a pencil roughs and figure out how the words will fit into a pleasing layout. You spend quite a bit of time with pencil before you even pick up your pen and ink. | Not sure about other people, but it's a right for me, and I always do it, i just sit and start writing the quotes. I don't know why, but i have some problem while doing this, I will try to do it today on the same quotes and will see if i managed to do something right.
- Sheila has three chapters on layout an design. They cover pretty much everything a person needs to know. Interestingly enough, most of the information is available through other sources on the internet. I do not have time right now to research and post links to design lessons. Maybe there are others who can suggest some good links.Thanks I will try to find out about them over internet.Thanks for your time :)
- The subject of design has come up before and it doesn't go very far. My fellow teachers and I have noted that many people are put-off or intimidated by the idea that you can learn design. It is not rocket science. There are elements and principles. If you work through the basic lessons of design, it is like riding a bike. You have tools that will serve you well for the rest of your life. I think i need to find those lesson and I need to apply them , I need to improve my Calligraphy overall and I believe Designing and Layout of text is the main part of it too :) .
- If you want to get serious about learning design, let me know. I do have a series of lessons of my own that I might be able to tailor to this format.Yes, I am quite serious about learning the design,,, thanks a lot for the help
Thanks a lot Jean for the help, I don't have enough words to show my gratitude.
Regards
Aman
Because you already have a lot of skill and design sense, I think you are a candidate for serious study of design. You and I would probably point to the exact same things if we were to brainstorm ways to improve these layouts. Spotting the problems is not difficult. Figuring out the best fix requires some lessons - at least for most of us.
Frequently, people think they can just sit down and apply a layout to a quote. In my reading and classes on layout and design, it is suggested that you need to start with a pencil roughs and figure out how the words will fit into a pleasing layout. You spend quite a bit of time with pencil before you even pick up your pen and ink.
Sheila has three chapters on layout an design. They cover pretty much everything a person needs to know. Interestingly enough, most of the information is available through other sources on the internet. I do not have time right now to research and post links to design lessons. Maybe there are others who can suggest some good links.
The subject of design has come up before and it doesn't go very far. My fellow teachers and I have noted that many people are put-off or intimidated by the idea that you can learn design. It is not rocket science. There are elements and principles. If you work through the basic lessons of design, it is like riding a bike. You have tools that will serve you well for the rest of your life.
If you want to get serious about learning design, let me know. I do have a series of lessons of my own that I might be able to tailor to this format.
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Hello @Erica McPhee
Good afternoon,
Thanks for your reply and links, they are really helpful and I have downloaded the Calligraohydesign.pdf file :) .
I need to learn design skill, i am already doing Calligraphy from past 2 years ( though it's not good), but in this year 2017 I want to improve it :) as much as I can.
Thanks a lot for your time and reply.
Have a nice day.
Regards
Aman
Jean is so right! Design is a skill that can be learned. Sadly, not many people take the time to do so. So I am glad you asked! There are a few good posts on design here at Flourish:
A short tutorial I created covering all the basics: Designs Tips for Calligraphers (http://theflourishforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=1987.0)
A link to a nice blog post by Patricia Lovett:
Designing a Festive Piece (http://theflourishforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5378.msg66997#msg66997)
More posts on Design and Layout: Design/Layout Process (http://theflourishforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=406.msg3780#msg3780)
Hope that helps!
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Hello @Erica McPhee ,
Thanks again :) ,, Kindly see my replies in blue :) ..
I'm sorry - I did not mention anything in particular about your lovely piece! I offer the following constructive feedback: | Please, you are taking your time to review everyone's work and then replying them, please don't say Sorry... :) . I am glad that you said it Lovely :)
1. The quote is referencing the ocean - but your color scheme is red and green which are more earth tones. | Thanks, I will try to use colours those are matching the *theme* of the quote or will use plain back.
2. I like the sidebar as a decorative element - however it is a bit too wide and as Brad said it distracts from your lovely lettering which is the main focus. It competes for the viewer's attention. This is a good opportunity to implement the Papa Bear, Mama Bear, Baby Bear concept. You want your viewer to first see your lettering (Papa Bear), then the side bar (Mama Bear). | Thanks for the Suggestion,I never heard the *Bear Family* concept, thanks a lot for teaching me this, I will keep it in my mind.
3. In regard to the sidebar, since you are talking about the ocean, perhaps you could use the brush to mimic the shape of waves. | I am really terrible in ARTS and Drawing... if i try to make waves , I bet they might come out as rectangles , that's i don't use that elements much, but i will give in a another try in the next version of quote.
4. For visual interest - perhaps you could pick out one or two words from the quote to focus or enhance - either in a different style, larger, different color, or somehow different (this would become the mama bear and the sidebar the baby bear). Thanks for the suggestion, that's where the first problem comes back, design and layout, and I am pretty bad in that, Please check the attached images, I have tried this same format and somehow they were not looking much good. :(. when I think about adding variation
I hope that is helpful and I hope you give it another go. I'd love to see another variation. :) YES, I am going to write another Version 2 of the same quote and will bother you all soon :)
Thanks a lot for your help Erica .
Regards
Aman
I'm sorry - I did not mention anything in particular about your lovely piece! I offer the following constructive feedback:
1. The quote is referencing the ocean - but your color scheme is red and green which are more earth tones.
2. I like the sidebar as a decorative element - however it is a bit too wide and as Brad said it distracts from your lovely lettering which is the main focus. It competes for the viewer's attention. This is a good opportunity to implement the Papa Bear, Mama Bear, Baby Bear concept. You want your viewer to first see your lettering (Papa Bear), then the side bar (Mama Bear).
3. In regard to the sidebar, since you are talking about the ocean, perhaps you could use the brush to mimic the shape of waves.
4. For visual interest - perhaps you could pick out one or two words from the quote to focus or enhance - either in a different style, larger, different color, or somehow different (this would become the mama bear and the sidebar the baby bear).
I hope that is helpful and I hope you give it another go. I'd love to see another variation. :)
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Dear @schin ,
Good afternoon.
Thanks a lot for the reply.
Thanks for the suggestions, I will keep these suggestions in the mind. Also as an example ( just to clear my doubt), if i need to highlight the important work like *Anger* i should either write it with some other color, or write it with an 3mm nib in-case i am writing the rest of quote with 2mm.
Thanks a again.
With Regards
Aman
Let the text influence the design... for example your quote is "Anger can rage till it tears you apart"... the important words could be Anger, Rage, Tears, Apart.. So let those have prominence in the design. Less important words can be smaller or less important. Then arrange everything so the eye follows the quote easily.
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Hello @AndyT
Good afternoon , thanks for the link dear, and i have downloaded the pdf.,,
Thanks for let me know about the Paul Klee, I will try to search his work :) . also may be once I will get pretty good with layouts may be some day i wll break some rules too :)
Have a nice day.
Regards
Aman
Sheila [Waters] has three chapters on layout an design.
Here's one of them in pdf format, courtesy of the University of California, Santa Barbara:
Foundations of Calligraphy: Design and Layout, part 4 (http://www.arts.ucsb.edu/faculty/reese/classes/artistsbooks/Waters.pdf)
Whilst being aware of this sort of thing is undoubtedly a good thing, slavish following of "rules" is not, in my opinion. As an antidote to formulaic thinking I can recommend pretty much any of the writings of Paul Klee, but in particular the notebooks. Always feel free to experiment.
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Hi Aman,
This has come out really nice. I like the composition and the color variation. Wanted to know if you use guidelines before you start writing?
Also whenever I compose long para, I use pencil to compost & sort out my spacing and overlapping issues.
Keep writing,
-Ashok
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Hello @ash0kgiri ,
Thanks for your appreciation ..
Arrr!! My answers are " NO" :( . Not sure if it's good or bad, I stop used using grid lines year before :) , So I don't used the guidelines in the below, and also I have never used the pencil markups till now :D ......
I am planning to use guidelines and pencil markup on today's calligraphy work. :)
Thanks
Aman
Hi Aman,
This has come out really nice. I like the composition and the color variation. Wanted to know if you use guidelines before you start writing?
Also whenever I compose long para, I use pencil to compost & sort out my spacing and overlapping issues.
Keep writing,
-Ashok
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Hi Aman,
The reason to use it to have better current layouts and composition.
Waiting to see todays work.
-Ashok
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Hi @ash0kgiri ,
That's nice :) ,,
Will upload my work late in the night.
Regards
Aman
Hi Aman,
The reason to use it to have better current layouts and composition.
Waiting to see todays work.
-Ashok
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Oh, did I speak out of turn?
Oh, Andy, I apologize if I sounded snarky. It was a quickly written post. I really do appreciate your comments and should have done a better job in explaining that the people who teach design are teaching vocabulary - not rules. I believe you are a very skilled woodworker and you probably use all kinds of design principles in your work. There is no set rule for balance, but you probably consider balance in designing a piece. Scale and proportion are two other factors when designing a piece where there are no set rules, they are simply things to consider. If someone came to you asking for a beautiful hand-crafted front door for their house, I am pretty sure you would want to know the scale and proportions of the entire house before you proposed a design. Maybe not - I'm just trying to think of an example that would apply to woodworking - knowing very little about the process. My point was/is that the elements and principles of design are simply vocabulary words that aid people when they are making decisions about their creations and I don't think calling them rules gives people the correct impression about why it is worthwhile to learn a bit (or a lot) about design.
I happily embrace those students who feel like design lessons are *rules* - no matter what I say. For some people, design lessons are pure torture. I compare it to music. Some people are gifted - and happy to just play things that make them happy. Would they benefit from some lessons? Maybe, but it is more important to enjoy the process. I do not get crosswise with the students who are wildly experimental and shun the design lessons. I support the free spirits. I am happy that you reminded us that experimentation is as valid as everything else.
This is where I draw the line on the value of lessons in any art. If you think you want to make a living with your art, but you can't find a market, then you might want to consider some lessons. We all know about those gifted people who rise to the top without any lessons. It's a wonderful thing when that happens. But it does not mean that we can replicate that path for ourselves. Many of us do better after taking some courses. Even if you have no interest in marketing your art, if you are not pleased with what you are producing, and you ask someone for help in improving the piece - I imagine most of the suggestions would include words from the lists found in elements and principles of design.
Something else that is vitally important to understand if someone decides to go for lessons. You may not click with every teacher. I'm sure I had students who considered my classes a waste of time. I explain at the beginning of any series of classes that I will do my best to connect with each student, but if they do not enjoy the class, keep searching for teachers who will offer those lessons that enhance the students life.
The next point is -how much is there to learn?
As much as you like.
Erica has posted a set of tips for design. Many people can learn some tips and that's all they need to be off and running. Other people like to study things in more depth. Figure out what works for you.
Again, I apologize for the earlier comments and hope that the conversation continues.
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Thanks @AndyT for posting that link! What a great resource to have available.
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Yes Aman! I like how you did these pieces.
I would advise, as Schin said, to choose the words you want to really emphasize to highlight. So for example:
In the 1st, I would suggest brightest if only one word or darkest and brightest and contrast them with dark and light colors. Or if you wanted Stars highlighted, just highlight stars, not "the" which is an insignificant word to the quote itself.
The faith and recognize ones are a great improvement! And the last as well. The recognize one is my favorite. :)
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Hello @Erica McPhee
A very good morning.
Thanks a ton to your valuable feedback and your suggestions.
I am glad that you like the piece of my work :) . I am going to add these suggestion on today's work. and will post it soon. I am sure with the mentor like you and others, I may will improve my calligraphy soon.
I am really glad that I have joined this group :) .. I am HAPPY.
Thanks
Aman
Yes Aman! I like how you did these pieces.
I would advise, as Schin said, to choose the words you want to really emphasize to highlight. So for example:
In the 1st, I would suggest brightest if only one word or darkest and brightest and contrast them with dark and light colors. Or if you wanted Stars highlighted, just highlight stars, not "the" which is an insignificant word to the quote itself.
The faith and recognize ones are a great improvement! And the last as well. The recognize one is my favorite. :)
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Hello Everyone..
I have tried the *Pencil Layout* process yesterday to redo the Ocean quote and one another quote.
And after seeing the result , I think I am failed terribly in this attempt ;D . The output is not much better.
I know, I messed the first "Y" in "You". I need to learn about creating "Y" again :D .
I have tried another quote for with layout too, and not sure if the result is better or not.
The process which I have followed is.
- Draw a margin on the paper.
- Find it's center.
- Use LED Board and palace the Guide sheet over it and then use the paper on which I am going to write a quote over it.
- Start making the layout or rough sketch of quote/
- When Happy with the quote, write over it with a Calligrahy pen
- Remove the pencil marks.
The Problem which I have faced.
- While writing with pencil, now can I judge the spacing? Bcos i am going to write with 2.4 mm or 2mm pen while writing of pencil is just 0.7mm and it will cause spacing issue or when i write over it with Pen the alphabets won't comer exactly over pencil markups.
- Once we done writing with a PEN, i tried to remove the pencil marks, but they messed up with the INK...
- With Pencil marks the Calligraphy quote looks bad..
- While when I was writing with pencil, I was not sure which layout to use,, I think read the PDF today which is send by Andy.
So this is the progress so far :) and i know it's bad :D.
Thanks a lot again and really my gratitude towards all of you..
Have a nice day.
Regards
Amna
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Congratulations for sticking with it and following suggestions that were a bit *sketchy* - which left out details that would have been helpful.
I like to do my first set of pencil sketches on graph paper and experiment with every possible way to arrange the words. Stack them in a tall narrow layout, break them in to as few lines as possible for a wide layout, break the words by grammatical phrasing, pull out important words and feature them larger. Note in each layout where your ascenders and descenders may run in to each other. Flush left, flush right, centered, random, etc...
This set of pencil sketches is often called *thumbnail* because you do them smaller than what the final piece will be. Exploring every possible way of arranging the words is a good exercise and once you learn how to do it, you enjoy the process because you frequently are surprised by which option is your favorite. When people start with just one idea about how to arrange the words, they are missing out on all kinds of options that they might like better.
Once you have the thumbnail that you like, enlarge it to the size that will be closer to the finished piece. The question about how to get the spacing right when you are using a pencil and will be switching to a broad edge is a good question. I can think of two ways to address this. The first is by doing a double stroke or even triple stroke on the wide strokes to approximate the width. Or, it is possible to write a monoline italic and see each stroke as if it is the skeleton within a wider stroke - so you are leaving the extra space and can visualize how the strokes will be wider.
Some people are really good at doing the thumbnails on a computer. If I get a rush job, I frequently do layouts on the computer using fonts that approximate my styles of lettering and get an approval from the client using the font.
Once you are happy with your pencil sketches at the final size, you switch to ink (on layout paper) and see how it looks. Again, most people would be surprised at how many versions some scribes are willing to make to arrive at the final layout. In her book, Sheila states that she is not adverse to doing the *final* more than once or even more than twice. She states that the extras are in her portfolio. I know it is common for students to groan when they make a mistake and they dread the thought of starting over. Personally, it seldom (if ever) bothers me to have to start over. It always takes me a while to get warmed up and I am happy to have as many pieces as possible in the portfolio to show clients their options. If I have time and there will be a decorative element on the piece, I might start 3 pieces to have backups so that I can be a little freer with the decorative element. I can do the first one in *safe* mode. And assuming it is fine, I can then switch to something a little riskier - that might be better. Or, in the case of the *happy accident* if you are working on three of the same piece and you have an oops, you might discover a really cool fix - so the accident truly is a happy accident.
Smearing when you erase your pencil lines---- I like to let things dry overnight before I erase. Sometimes, there will be smearing no matter what - so learning how to avoid smears is a matter of learning about your inks and papers and only using the ones that you have thoroughly tested. And even then...be prepared for surprises.
---- on the other hand------
The details above about how to approach layouts is one end of the spectrum. It is detailed oriented and takes time. If it sounds tedious and boring, don't worry. There are other ways to approach design that are more streamlined. I don't want to be the only person offering suggestions. Maybe other people will add to the conversation.
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Great feedback, Jean.
Aman, I really like how you laid out the ocean piece. To answer your questions, I never do the actual quote in pencil. I only do the thumbnail for a rough layout and then draw the guidelines in pencil. I know some folks pencil out their words first but I could never get all of the pencil lines erased - especially using gouache or watercolor. Always wait at least an hour before erasing pencil lines.
Practice makes progress! ;D
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No one give better feedback than Jean. :D
Aman, as Erica said the ocean piece is looking good. Also try and use a light hand to make the pencil sketch and a softer pencil. so that you can erase it easily afterwards.
One more thing. When I pencil sketch my letters, I use them only as guides for spacing and composition and not to trace on them. The pencil thickness differs from the broad pen width and hence you need to judge your para accordingly. You will get a hang of it with more practice.
So keep writing,
-Ashok
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Hello @jeanwilson
A very good morning , and thanks for your detailed reply.
Thanks for suggesting about graph paper, I never saw anyone using Graph paper for Italic , I will give it a try and will post the result soon.
Thumbnails, option looking good to me, and I can understand the process now, thanks a lot for explaining it in details, now the another question arise ( sorry), if some one is not aware from *different kind* of layouts, then he can't make any? right? So there have to be some *foundation * principles for it.
Thumbnails on computer ? By any chance you have any *sampler* of computer generated thumbnails? I am good in computers, I would like to give it a try, and just curious which software you do use to create thumbnails in computer.
For this week's calligraphy work, I will try to generate some *Thumbnails* and will see if I can come out with anything.
I never managed to create a *final piece* yet, but I am hoping I will do it soon, once I got everything right. Will frame it and hang in on the wall of my drawing room.
While practicing , i messed up with the 2-3 paper anyway, that make me warm, like a warm exercise. I am still struggling with Inks and paper, and i think that's a topic for some another day.
The more you are mentioning *Sheila* the more eager I am getting a hands on her book, does anyone have her book in PDF format? that will be great help to me.I will ask my online friends too, and will see if anyone have hold of it.
I have found this pic over internet, and this is the example of *Thumbnail* right ?
(https://theflourishforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flettershoppe.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F07%2FThumbs.png&hash=b731310584a82e99e41e6c8fff81d8c2)
Thanks a lot for the reply.
Have a nice day.
Regards
Aman
Congratulations for sticking with it and following suggestions that were a bit *sketchy* - which left out details that would have been helpful.
I like to do my first set of pencil sketches on graph paper and experiment with every possible way to arrange the words. Stack them in a tall narrow layout, break them in to as few lines as possible for a wide layout, break the words by grammatical phrasing, pull out important words and feature them larger. Note in each layout where your ascenders and descenders may run in to each other. Flush left, flush right, centered, random, etc...
This set of pencil sketches is often called *thumbnail* because you do them smaller than what the final piece will be. Exploring every possible way of arranging the words is a good exercise and once you learn how to do it, you enjoy the process because you frequently are surprised by which option is your favorite. When people start with just one idea about how to arrange the words, they are missing out on all kinds of options that they might like better.
Once you have the thumbnail that you like, enlarge it to the size that will be closer to the finished piece. The question about how to get the spacing right when you are using a pencil and will be switching to a broad edge is a good question. I can think of two ways to address this. The first is by doing a double stroke or even triple stroke on the wide strokes to approximate the width. Or, it is possible to write a monoline italic and see each stroke as if it is the skeleton within a wider stroke - so you are leaving the extra space and can visualize how the strokes will be wider.
Some people are really good at doing the thumbnails on a computer. If I get a rush job, I frequently do layouts on the computer using fonts that approximate my styles of lettering and get an approval from the client using the font.
Once you are happy with your pencil sketches at the final size, you switch to ink (on layout paper) and see how it looks. Again, most people would be surprised at how many versions some scribes are willing to make to arrive at the final layout. In her book, Sheila states that she is not adverse to doing the *final* more than once or even more than twice. She states that the extras are in her portfolio. I know it is common for students to groan when they make a mistake and they dread the thought of starting over. Personally, it seldom (if ever) bothers me to have to start over. It always takes me a while to get warmed up and I am happy to have as many pieces as possible in the portfolio to show clients their options. If I have time and there will be a decorative element on the piece, I might start 3 pieces to have backups so that I can be a little freer with the decorative element. I can do the first one in *safe* mode. And assuming it is fine, I can then switch to something a little riskier - that might be better. Or, in the case of the *happy accident* if you are working on three of the same piece and you have an oops, you might discover a really cool fix - so the accident truly is a happy accident.
Smearing when you erase your pencil lines---- I like to let things dry overnight before I erase. Sometimes, there will be smearing no matter what - so learning how to avoid smears is a matter of learning about your inks and papers and only using the ones that you have thoroughly tested. And even then...be prepared for surprises.
---- on the other hand------
The details above about how to approach layouts is one end of the spectrum. It is detailed oriented and takes time. If it sounds tedious and boring, don't worry. There are other ways to approach design that are more streamlined. I don't want to be the only person offering suggestions. Maybe other people will add to the conversation.
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Hello @Erica McPhee ,
Good morning,
Thanks for the reply . I am glad that you like it.
Ohk! I always tried removing pencil marks just after it was written, I need to correct it.
I would love to see some *thumbnails* examples , so kindly whenever you have time ( in near future) please share with us. :)
Thanks, and have a nice day.
Regards
Aman
Great feedback, Jean.
Aman, I really like how you laid out the ocean piece. To answer your questions, I never do the actual quote in pencil. I only do the thumbnail for a rough layout and then draw the guidelines in pencil. I know some folks pencil out their words first but I could never get all of the pencil lines erased - especially using gouache or watercolor. Always wait at least an hour before erasing pencil lines.
Practice makes progress! ;D
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Hello @ash0kgiri ,
I am totally agree with you , she is kind and she is really helpful.
Thanks a lot a help, I am going to get some *light* shade pencils and will try to use soft lines for making alphabets.
I will try your appoarch too , thanks for sharing it with me,and will share the result soon.
Thanks again and have a nice day.
Regards
aman
No one give better feedback than Jean. :D
Aman, as Erica said the ocean piece is looking good. Also try and use a light hand to make the pencil sketch and a softer pencil. so that you can erase it easily afterwards.
One more thing. When I pencil sketch my letters, I use them only as guides for spacing and composition and not to trace on them. The pencil thickness differs from the broad pen width and hence you need to judge your para accordingly. You will get a hang of it with more practice.
So keep writing,
-Ashok
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Hello,
Good morning .
I am posting my yesterday's work. In the below work, I have tried to do the following.
- I used the Guideline , to keep consistency in slant ness
- I have tried to keep *branching* from middle on strokes.
- Mentioning of Source of quote or name of Author
- Highlighting of main words,
- Tried to use the colors according the harmony / essence of the quote.
- Writing my name using Pencil.
- Writing author name using different and small nib/pen
- Tried to write in the center of the page, so that I can have approx white space around the quote.
I have tried to applied the suggestion , so kindly let me know how it comes out.
Wishing you guys a great day ahead,
Regards
Aman
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Your thumbnails look great.
The next step is to do them a little *tighter.*
Be more specific about which style of lettering you will use and how the exact words will work together.
Choose one or two of the layouts that you like best.
Remember to define your picture plane - square, portrait or landscape.
Yes, there are some lessons on how to approach the basics of layouts.
I probably have something from my own teaching handouts that i can post.
Yes, we can cover the elements and principles of design.
Elements are the basic building blocks, line, shape, color
Principles are concepts/tools for how you work with the elements. texture, scale, contrast, etc
I do computer thumbnails in Word using fonts that look like the various styles of calligraphy.
There is a feature called WordArt where you can pull out a word and morph it into different sizes and shapes.
Depending on which version of Word you have, there all kinds of ways to arrange the elements.
I imagine there are even more options if you work with a Mac.
I have both. But I started with PC, so have not taken time to relearn thumbnail technique in Mac.
Maybe some of the Mac people will add to the discussion.
I could make some samples - if I forget - remind me.
Even if you do not frame your final work and hang it on the wall, it is very helpful to treat your practice work as though you were going to frame it and at the very least, have a line that shows where the mat would be.
In your search for ink, have you heard about walnut ink crystals?
Many of us are very fond of walnut ink.
Sheila's book is under copyright and it would not be OK for anyone to copy it and post it anywhere. However, there is a lot of information that is basic information that can be found on other websites. Whenever I studied with Sheila or any of the other rock stars, and heard their lessons, I seldom heard brand new information. I was always thinking, "Oh, yes. That is the same information that I remember from college." But, it was very helpful to hear the lessons again and each teacher had their own way of showing how they use the design tools to make decisions and resolve problems.
As I keep saying, all of this information is pretty standard. It's like cooking. All the ingredients are at the grocery store. All the recipes are in the books. We have pots and pans and a stove. Surely we should be able to cook fantastic meals. What makes the greatest cooks so great? They are obsessed with learning. They spend a lot of time mastering the basics. They do not expect to take one lesson or try a recipe once and have it be perfect. They realize that there are many basics to learn and they all fit together. It is not a linear form of learning. You have to integrate many different things.
Picture plane is a basic building block.
More to follow.
-
Jean, thanks so much for these helpful posts. I like the chef analogy... that's a down to earth was to put self taught endeavors into perspective... so right now in my caligraphy journey it's like I'm learning to use the microwave 8). I'm also anxiously awaiting the Shelia Waters book you recommended.
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Hello @brd4790 ,
Have you ordered the book? if yes, then how much it did cost you ?
Regards
Aman
Jean, thanks so much for these helpful posts. I like the chef analogy... that's a down to earth was to put self taught endeavors into perspective... so right now in my caligraphy journey it's like I'm learning to use the microwave 8). I'm also anxiously awaiting the Shelia Waters book you recommended.
-
Hello @jeanwilson ,
Greetings of the day and thanks a lot for replying.
Sorry, if i have forget to mention,, these thumbnails are just chosen randomly from internet, to show if I have got the concept of *thubmnails* right. I am going to create few thumbnails and will share them soon. I will try to create thumbnails according to my italic style of calligraphy.
I have tried to search and read about *picture plane*, and it looked like a *rocket science* to me, and i was puzzled while reading this concept.I think it's about the "When someone looks in your image, when they see things first" etc?
I can do this, I can choose shape of the paper to be - square, portrait or landscape.? Is that right ? or ? we are talking about, writing calligraphy stuff in , either square, portrait or landscape.... I have tried to create an example, kindly have a look to the attached Plane.png.
I am eagerly waiting for the lessons to be post by you :) . Thanks for explaining, I can understand the terms, Elements and Principles.
I do use PC, not MAC, and to be honest, I am quite good with Microsoft Office applications, the reason is in an IT guys and works in IT industry and we play with Microsoft applications a lot. I used WordArt a lot of times, but never for thumbnails. It would be great if you post some examples, they will help me in the learning the concepts :) and sure, i will remind you again about it.
Thanks for your wise words ,, I will keep practice as it gonna be my final work, and will try to add mat lines to the white paper sheet.
I have checked but it seems Walnut inks crystals are not available in India :( .
Thanks, It seems that I need to purchase the book. I may need to find some who is either coming to India from USA, to can ship to me from USA. I checked the price of book in India, which i a-way-to-high, i checked the price of book on inkpapernart.com, the price of book is a little high but the shipping charges are same as the cost of book :D....
Right, i need to find those lessons and then try to work on them,,, but first i need to know what i need to find ., that might take some time,as i may need to take one step at a time as suggested... You are lucky that you get managed to work with all of the rock-stars of Calligraphy :)
Awesome example of Chef!!!! I am ready to learn :) basic again, thanks a lot for guiding me and mentoring me.
Now kindly guide me, what shall be the first step :)
thanks a ton.
Wishing you a great day ahead.
Regards
Aman
Your thumbnails look great.
The next step is to do them a little *tighter.*
Be more specific about which style of lettering you will use and how the exact words will work together.
Choose one or two of the layouts that you like best.
Remember to define your picture plane - square, portrait or landscape.
Yes, there are some lessons on how to approach the basics of layouts.
I probably have something from my own teaching handouts that i can post.
Yes, we can cover the elements and principles of design.
Elements are the basic building blocks, line, shape, color
Principles are concepts/tools for how you work with the elements. texture, scale, contrast, etc
I do computer thumbnails in Word using fonts that look like the various styles of calligraphy.
There is a feature called WordArt where you can pull out a word and morph it into different sizes and shapes.
Depending on which version of Word you have, there all kinds of ways to arrange the elements.
I imagine there are even more options if you work with a Mac.
I have both. But I started with PC, so have not taken time to relearn thumbnail technique in Mac.
Maybe some of the Mac people will add to the discussion.
I could make some samples - if I forget - remind me.
Even if you do not frame your final work and hang it on the wall, it is very helpful to treat your practice work as though you were going to frame it and at the very least, have a line that shows where the mat would be.
In your search for ink, have you heard about walnut ink crystals?
Many of us are very fond of walnut ink.
Sheila's book is under copyright and it would not be OK for anyone to copy it and post it anywhere. However, there is a lot of information that is basic information that can be found on other websites. Whenever I studied with Sheila or any of the other rock stars, and heard their lessons, I seldom heard brand new information. I was always thinking, "Oh, yes. That is the same information that I remember from college." But, it was very helpful to hear the lessons again and each teacher had their own way of showing how they use the design tools to make decisions and resolve problems.
As I keep saying, all of this information is pretty standard. It's like cooking. All the ingredients are at the grocery store. All the recipes are in the books. We have pots and pans and a stove. Surely we should be able to cook fantastic meals. What makes the greatest cooks so great? They are obsessed with learning. They spend a lot of time mastering the basics. They do not expect to take one lesson or try a recipe once and have it be perfect. They realize that there are many basics to learn and they all fit together. It is not a linear form of learning. You have to integrate many different things.
Picture plane is a basic building block.
More to follow.
-
I agree, the definition of the picture plane can be confusing.
Plus, I have confused you about the matting and framing of the artwork.
Let's put matting and framing aside for right now and just talk about cropping.
Google -- cropping L -- and you will see images of two L shaped pieces of metal, plastic or card stock that are used to crop a photograph.
Then, find some card stock or heavy paper and make yourself two cropping Ls.
There are several places to read about how photographers approach cropping.
It is handy to have ruler markings along the edge which can be very lightly drawn.
The rectangle that the cropping Ls form is the picture plane.
Does that make sense?
You can define or draw the picture plane and then put your lettering inside that square or rectangle.
or
You can arrange your lettering, figure out your layout - and then - define, or decide on where the picture plane will be.
or
you can do a combination of those two options.
If you know you are posting on IG, then you will be thinking of a square format, but you do not have to put the square on the page before you start. You can be thinking of a square and then figure out the cropping after you are pleased with the layout.
Please let me know if this makes more sense.
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Dear @jeanwilson ,
Good morning. and thanks for the reply.
I have checked the good about "Cropping L" and not i have a quite an idea about it.
By using these 2 L shape, we can define what we want to display in a image. I am going to create "Cropping L" by this weekend and will use it.
I think. I can use it like this... write on a paper first then use it for cropping.....
I have tried making some rectangle and square calligrapy which i am posting after this post, kindly please suggest if i am doing things in a right way now. :)
Thanks a lot for your help.
Regards
Aman
I agree, the definition of the picture plane can be confusing.
Plus, I have confused you about the matting and framing of the artwork.
Let's put matting and framing aside for right now and just talk about cropping.
Google -- cropping L -- and you will see images of two L shaped pieces of metal, plastic or card stock that are used to crop a photograph.
Then, find some card stock or heavy paper and make yourself two cropping Ls.
There are several places to read about how photographers approach cropping.
It is handy to have ruler markings along the edge which can be very lightly drawn.
The rectangle that the cropping Ls form is the picture plane.
Does that make sense?
You can define or draw the picture plane and then put your lettering inside that square or rectangle.
or
You can arrange your lettering, figure out your layout - and then - define, or decide on where the picture plane will be.
or
you can do a combination of those two options.
If you know you are posting on IG, then you will be thinking of a square format, but you do not have to put the square on the page before you start. You can be thinking of a square and then figure out the cropping after you are pleased with the layout.
Please let me know if this makes more sense.
-
Hello Good morning,
Thanks a lot for guiding me and helping to to learn more about Calligraphy's concepts.
I have tried to working on all the suggestion those are given to me, and below is the updated (yesterday's work ) on those suggestions which I have tried to follow religiously.
What I have tried.
- Trying to create a Frame line.
- Trying to create a MAT lines
- Writing my name with Pencil
- Trying to create Thumbnail about the quote.
- Tried to write in proper Square or proper rectangle paper.
- Trying to keep slantness
Issues faced so far.
- INK is causing lots of trouble.
- Struggling with layouts.
- Not much ideas coming to mind when I tried to create thumbnails.
- Sometime I messed up with spacing
I am still working on the areas of Issues :) .
Wishing you guys a great day ahead.
Regards
Aman
-
It is great to see how eager you are to learn more about layouts and design. Yesterday I had a visit from someone who mentioned that she really needed some lessons in design and wished that I was active in my regular teaching schedule. I told her that I would pull out all my teaching materials and figure out a way to post the lessons online. I will figure out a way to put all the tips in a thread on FF - but it might take me a while to get everything organized. I think it will make a lot more sense for you to have some order to the process. In the meantime, you could focus on just the lettering. I'll put those comments in a different post.
One question:
Do you have a final product in mind? Do you know why you were drawn to calligraphy? Some people just want to improve their penmanship. Others just want to post on IG. Some like to make greeting cards. Others want to create finished, framed artwork. Some want to do all of those things. It is helpful to know if you have a particular goal or if you are still just exploring your options.
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Hi Jean,
It would be really great to have your teaching material on this forum. Waiting forward to them. :D
- Ashok
-
Hello @jeanwilson ,
Thanks a lot for your kind words and reply.
I do believe that in my calligraphy , the main area which need improvement most is, "Layout and Design" section, and I am really want to improve it.I am really thankful to you to guide me in this, there is a famous saying in India, that " When the student is ready, the teacher will appear" , might me that's why you come as a teacher for me :).
Your training material will be great help to everyone and specially me as I am not good in this section, yet. So you got one more pupil who need to learn same things, great :) . I am sure that will going to help all of us a lot. Kindly let me know if I can help you in any way to organize your stuff.
Why I was drawn to calligraphy ? I have the answer , but it's long and kind of sad story which I may share some other day. {too much to type.. :P }:) . I want to framed my finished works, like a really awesome final pieces of quotes, poems, essays... may be one day I can sell my work online. That's is may be my goal is.
Thanks again.
Regards
Aman
It is great to see how eager you are to learn more about layouts and design. Yesterday I had a visit from someone who mentioned that she really needed some lessons in design and wished that I was active in my regular teaching schedule. I told her that I would pull out all my teaching materials and figure out a way to post the lessons online. I will figure out a way to put all the tips in a thread on FF - but it might take me a while to get everything organized. I think it will make a lot more sense for you to have some order to the process. In the meantime, you could focus on just the lettering. I'll put those comments in a different post.
One question:
Do you have a final product in mind? Do you know why you were drawn to calligraphy? Some people just want to improve their penmanship. Others just want to post on IG. Some like to make greeting cards. Others want to create finished, framed artwork. Some want to do all of those things. It is helpful to know if you have a particular goal or if you are still just exploring your options.
-
It occurred to me that there might be some good lessons on design principles online. If you Google -principles of design- several pop up. I do not have time to look at all of them. Some are a simple list. One of them (linked below) goes into quite a bit of detail - there are links at the end of the elements that apply each of the principles to that element. So, it might be a good one for people who are curious to do some reading right now. Of course, none of the examples are lettering, so it is not the ideal site for this group. But, I think I will use it as an outline and find lettering examples to correspond to each to the examples.
I will also figure out some lessons in case people want actual lessons. IMHO the value of taking a college level class is that you have an investment in that you have paid for the class and you complete the assignments because you are working towards a degree. In my classes, the students were taking classes for their own enjoyment and often times they would not complete the assignments because they had other priorities. Since they were not working towards a degree or even a grade, I never wanted them to feel bad about not doing the assignments. I always support students who are trying to squeeze art into a busy schedule because art can be so therapeutic and maybe down the road they will find the time to do the assignments. Those students who made time to complete assignments tended to make a little more progress than the others, but not always. One student hardly ever did any work during the class. After I had coaxed her one too many times, she explained that she just needed to get out of the house once a week and she enjoyed being there. So, after that I just let her enjoy the company. It wasn't my business to pressure her and I was glad she found a little oasis.
One of my assignments is to take one quote and do it every day for a month. At first, students are stumped because they can't believe they can come up with 30 different ideas. But, by going through the list of elements and principles, they learn that there are an exponential number of ideas.
I have no idea how long it will take me to find a good example to correspond to each example at the website, but I am looking forward to my own assignment of finding them.....
https://www.johnlovett.com/design-overview
I have not read every single bit of information on the site and there may be material that I would not agree with. As I look for examples, i will also mention any places where I think it might be worthwhile to consider an alternative viewpoint. He does not have *type or letters* as an element. In some lists of elements, you see type or letters included because they can be an element of a piece of art.
You see many different variations in the lists of elements and principles.
If anyone is confused about the concept of elements and principles, let me know and I can clarify.
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Hello @jeanwilson
Greetings of the day, and apologies for replying late.
Thanks for sharing the link and I need to take printout of that, :) . some things are easy to understand and some are not, may be once I have read them few time they make start making sense to me.
you are nice towards your student's and I think Calligraphy is an escape for most of us to do some actual work rather then spending the rest of life either on laptop or on mobile. :) .
I love your assignment, writing the same quote again and again for 30 days in a awesome idea... i may try to do this too.
Thanks again for your time and efforts, and your kindness.
Regards
Aman