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Tutorials => Kind Critique => Topic started by: InkyFingers on May 23, 2017, 01:38:47 PM

Title: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: InkyFingers on May 23, 2017, 01:38:47 PM
Learning Spencerian have been difficult for me.  Seeking to improve my scratches on paper, I sought for a pragmatic script.  I found beauty and legibility, flexibility in this script.  I fell in love.  However, I saw no improvements from 1.5 yr of practice, I sought another.  Chancery is beauty to my eyes, and it was easy to grasp as it did not involve arm/shoulder movement as much.  Here I am again with Spencerian attempt after a 2.5yr of Chancery.  I believe that Chancery script helped me to fine tune my Spencerian. 

With your gracious time and help, please add comments on where I can improve my endeavor.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4221/34808662476_5193449a70_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/V2VuD3)
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: Rednaxela on May 23, 2017, 02:37:40 PM
Inky, I really like the look of this, but what I seem to be missing is the application of the Principle Strokes.

Let me know if this makes sense.
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: InkyFingers on May 23, 2017, 04:09:47 PM
Thanks Alexander.

I have read and re-read the manual.  I am having extreme difficulty managing an exactness to the Spencerian forms.

Tell me where I can improve...

Here's what I already know.
1.  Shading...It is hard to not to shade with this pen.  It is so flexible.  I will do more diligence on flexing.
2.  To live by ... I follow this principle.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4275/34464282870_b10a37f246.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/UvuszC)
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: Rednaxela on May 23, 2017, 04:46:14 PM
Try this:

Break down the 'm' into its Principle strokes, seven in total. Write each stroke separately. Then reconstruct the 'm' from that. This is your letter.

The classic muscular movement technique plus accompanying grip is a superb way to lighten your touch. It really pays to learn to glide on the nails. It will feel strange at first, but in the end you'll love it.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BFiSSKKKv0V
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: InkyFingers on May 24, 2017, 01:00:24 AM
I see.  My issue is spacing.  I tend to compress the forms.  More practice for this script....  Perhaps this is not pragmatic for me, as  am required to write very compressed and not small.  I will try a different variant ..Samples from Semi-Angular Penmanship?

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4170/34471723780_c38d40b93b_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Uw9Avb)
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: Rednaxela on May 24, 2017, 03:38:05 AM
Or perhaps the worksheets I created some time ago?
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: AndyT on May 24, 2017, 04:42:26 AM
I see.  My issue is spacing.  I tend to compress the forms.  More practice for this script....  Perhaps this is not pragmatic for me, as  am required to write very compressed and not small.

Hello Inky.  You have hit the nail squarely on the head here, because one of the defining visual characteristics of textbook Spencerian is a horizontal emphasis.  This is driven by the connective slant and causes the writing to spread out along the line like no other script.  You can easily compress it by steepening the connective slant, but you lose the distinctive character of the style.  This is why Spencerian is generally written small, and it therefore follows that a sharp nib (untipped!) is highly desirable.

If the size of your writing is not negotiable, it might make sense to go back to Platt Rogers Spencer's style of writing, which is considerably different but has its own charms.  As you suggest the Compendium of Semi Angular Penmanship Book 10 is one of the best sources for this, but for illustrative purposes I've attached some doggerel by PRS.

If you do pursue this line, Alexander's point about breaking the letters down into the principles is still enormously important - in fact it seems to me that it's the key to swift progress.  Interestingly, the principles pertaining to minuscules in the Semi Angular book are not the same as those used in the later books - at all - but it's the process of analysis which will help rather than the specifics.
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: InkyFingers on May 24, 2017, 12:59:06 PM
Alexander.  Minding the principles and lifting as often as possible.

Re: nail gliding..I do not have a writing desk.  Most writing is in the standing position and height of desk varies.  Not ideal for me.

Re: Semi-Angular...Compressed it is.  It lose its aesthetic, too busy per se.  I will try a version that is in-between.

Andy.  Thanks.  I will look into it further.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4168/34828475186_e3f906c374_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/V4F3gu)
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: Rednaxela on May 25, 2017, 01:51:32 AM
Re: nail gliding..I do not have a writing desk.  Most writing is in the standing position and height of desk varies.  Not ideal for me.

See if you can sort this. Don't you have a kitchen table or at least something of a proper height? As the books tell you first thing: this is really important. I think it currently gets in the way of your technique.
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: Rednaxela on May 25, 2017, 02:01:21 AM
P.S.: Somehow I missed your Principles practice sheet, sorry. Looks very nice!

Do you know what's called the push-pull drill? Perhaps you could study and work on that exercise, and then, during writing, apply that same motion (and touch) to every downstroke you make. Please don't think it takes you away from the real stuff. It is the real stuff.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: AndyT on May 25, 2017, 05:43:19 AM
+1 on those push-pulls.  I'm not overly keen on traditional drills in general except as muscle looseners, but that one is highly beneficial.
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: Rednaxela on May 25, 2017, 09:42:40 AM
Agree. A great way to increase the transfer is to practise for instance the 'm', while push-pulling each one of its downstrokes a couple of times before moving on to the next stroke.
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: InkyFingers on May 25, 2017, 06:06:11 PM
Serendipity ... I picked up a Bic pen and wrote a line as a before...

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4219/34049588504_b8c0cd74b7_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/TSR3oL)
(filled in for shading)
Do I still do the pull-pull drill?  I remember that I did lot of these pull-push and oval, but that's at least 3 yrs ago...
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: InkyFingers on May 25, 2017, 11:41:07 PM
I am convinced...it's the tool and my spacing.  Pencil is decent.  Bic is decent.  Fountain pen not decent.

I like to work on the spacing issue and the flex nib issue.  What are the drills that I can do to focus on spacing and shading.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4249/34765584101_5ca7aa8631.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/UY7GWr)
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: AndyT on May 26, 2017, 05:18:49 AM
What are the drills that I can do to focus on spacing and shading.

Spacing first: try doing "i"s.  In groups of half a dozen or so first, moving the paper in between so that your hand position remains constant, and later continuous lines across the page.  You should still move the paper rather than stretch, but pick up as invisibly as you can.  All good practice.  When you can't stand that any more, try "u", "n" and whatever else takes your fancy.  Try to think in terms of the connective slant setting the spacing - keep that constant and things will fall into place.

Shading: I wouldn't bother at this stage personally, but if you do my suggestion would be to confine yourself to t, d, p and final t if you use it.  If you were to blow some cash on a yellow Bic instead of the Cristal, you'd find that they're surprisingly responsive for shading so long as your default pressure is very light.  The capitals really should wait for a while until you're happy with that basic push-pull motion, which is really what we mean when we talk about muscular movement.
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: InkyFingers on May 26, 2017, 10:31:20 AM
Thanks Andy.  I will do more of the pull push drill.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4199/34062793504_5c08e4d591.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/TU1HMb)
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: InkyFingers on May 30, 2017, 12:39:36 AM
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4251/34819350272_9809b429af.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/V3SgKo)
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: InkyFingers on May 30, 2017, 01:00:06 AM
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4267/34850421911_8a654f0bbb.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/V6Bwgi)
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: Rednaxela on May 30, 2017, 02:15:23 AM
Inky, what I think I saw in your flexible nib samples is you struggling a bit with pressure control. I'd say keep writing with those flexible nibs, trying not to shade at all. I suspect this will make you adjust your technique towards the (even) more classic method, which will eventually make it easier for you to execute your Spencerian.

Perhaps even better, see if you can write with an extra fine, flexible dip nib, like a Blanzy 2552 or a Perry 27, or something similar. These nibs are totally merciless and will show you exactly where your room for improvement is. In any case this is the reason I currently do my Business Penmanship practice with these myself.

Also, you might want to switch to wider ruled paper, think .5 inch line spacing. This will give you a bit more room to dimension your letters vertically.

Finally, I would personally not switch to an oblique at this moment, unless you really want to work on your shading too, something I would park for a while.

Hope this helps!

Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: InkyFingers on June 18, 2017, 01:38:45 PM
An Elegant Hand ... Louis Madarasie have a routine warm up every morning....that I like to adopt. 

Here's an update.  no more push pull?

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4263/35257060891_c0a27815fd.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VHxDSc)
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: Rednaxela on June 18, 2017, 05:14:58 PM
Looking very nice Inky!

Always push pull though, always push pull.
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: InkyFingers on June 28, 2017, 11:14:01 PM
Feeling better with my trials with Spencerian... now onto shading.

I am having trouble with shading...  Where should the weight be? (Center for straight pull, towards the center of the curve or away from the center of the  curve) and how to excute it!
I've seen some of Dr. JVitolo on spreading the thines and I am still a bit fuzzy.  He's demo is for Engrosser/English Round. 

Any special technique on how to distribute the weight of the shading?

Thank you.

Just messing with angles....the higher the angle, the smaller the letter needed to be.  It's all about legibility and readability.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4161/35470829381_f95a51d016.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/W3rgMP)
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: InkyFingers on July 18, 2017, 02:12:16 AM
Here's up update.  I liked it when I do the drills first.

All comments and recommendation welcomed.  The practice drills are from "Dashy Writing"

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4319/35608681060_d4ba9259fe_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WfBNhU)
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: Rednaxela on July 18, 2017, 01:55:27 PM
Excellent move Inky! Keep up the great work!
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: InkyFingers on July 18, 2017, 06:02:46 PM
Thank you.  I feel that by taking a full step backward as was suggested.  I have leaped forward.

I have done all the ovals, push pull with the gliding on the fingernails.  However, I am not comfortable
when writing in this position yet.  I will try.
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: Rednaxela on July 19, 2017, 12:26:40 AM
Just start with one letter: the i. Retrace the downstroke a couple of times (push-pull), then swing to the right. Retrace another push-pull, and swing. And again. Don't lift. And put your i's about an inch apart.

Then do the same thing for the u, then the m, and then the n. -> minimum

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: InkyFingers on July 19, 2017, 10:13:03 AM
Mission accomplished. Gliding on 4/5 nails doing push pull.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4313/35983724236_220e3153a1_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WPKZyy)
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: Rednaxela on July 19, 2017, 01:44:02 PM
Those last minimums are looking really good!
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: InkyFingers on August 02, 2017, 01:24:13 AM
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4442/36190204771_325ef53cea_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/X91g2M)
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: AnasaziWrites on August 02, 2017, 09:39:41 AM
Coming along very nicely.
Title: Re: I think I am ready... New Spencerian Compendium
Post by: InkyFingers on January 02, 2018, 06:09:21 PM
So here it is...any kind critique is welcomed.  Current aim is to achieve a level of excellence to be used everyday.  I have not consider engaging in any flourish or ornamental yet, perhaps in the near future.  Thank you for taking your time to read this poorly done Spencerian.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4636/25582672388_ab00969bdc_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/EYDTdq)