Author Topic: oblique vs straight holders  (Read 26986 times)

Offline Nickkih

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 789
  • Karma: 38
  • Be Brave
    • View Profile
    • Amore Paper and Ink
oblique vs straight holders
« on: February 24, 2014, 10:07:15 AM »
So I started off learning pointed pen with a straight holder and then started using an oblique. I'm a righty.  I'm more comfortable with the straight. Is this acceptable? And it's funny some day's the pen holder I've been using doesn't work for me. Its like my hands get moody and want a change like my regular pen holder and my hands got into a fight. Lol anyway anyone else experience this? 
Mom, Grandma, and Calligrapher

Offline ewigginton

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 213
  • Karma: 21
    • View Profile
Re: oblique vs straight holders
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2014, 10:52:22 AM »
ME!! ME!!! I'm constantly fighting with it since I seem to be able to use both. I think the main difference shows up when you look closely at the letterforms and see one side has a bit of a raggedy edge. Is this the main reason the oblique is recommended????

I know some of the online classes recommend the straight holder but I would guess it's because they're teaching "contemporary or modern calligraphy that doesn't have so much of a slant.

I'll wait for the pros to chime in as these are just my newbie observations.  ;)

Ellen
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 12:27:08 PM by ewigginton »

Offline Nickkih

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 789
  • Karma: 38
  • Be Brave
    • View Profile
    • Amore Paper and Ink
Re: oblique vs straight holders
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2014, 11:18:36 AM »
Oh Ellen I'm so glad I'm not the only one. You made my day  :) ;) when I use the straight my enter and exit stroke are shaky so maybe your right the straight is good for modern and oblique for cooperplate.
Mom, Grandma, and Calligrapher

Offline Sharyn

  • Freshman Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • Karma: 3
    • View Profile
    • Quirkeries
Re: oblique vs straight holders
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2014, 11:22:32 AM »
as a side issue...I'm not sure how the nib should lay in comparison to the oblique holder.
But looking at the above photo, is it as easy as laying the holder down and matching the nib to the flat of the holder?

Hope that makes sense. but you wouldn't believe how many practice pages I've done with the nib off set to the oblique holder
(for spencerian)

Offline Erica McPhee

  • Administrator
  • Super Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7201
  • Karma: 332
  • Be brave. Love life!
    • View Profile
Re: oblique vs straight holders
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2014, 11:29:11 AM »
There is no right or wrong here. It really does come down to personal preference. If you feel you can do better with a straight holder, then that is completely acceptable.  :)

Ellen is correct about the edges. But what it really comes down to is the angle at which you hold your pen and the direction you are/will move to achieve thicks and thins. I think, in my personal opinion, the oblique assists with the angle of the nib to the page which helps me apply even pressure. And slant of the letters doesn't really have anything to do with it (in my case) for modern calligraphy and calligraphy straight up and down without a slant. But yes, the oblique is much better at enabling the 55 degree slant for copperplate.

For me, it is the curves and fine hairlines that benefit the most from the oblique. Which I suppose is counter to what many might experience with flourishing since straight holders are often used for off-hand flourishing. However, I see much more shaky lines from other artists who use a straight holder (v. an oblique) for lettering. But that is just perception, not a hard and fast fact.

I think it really comes down to what you learned with. I find people struggle more initially when learning with a straight holder v. an oblique but once you learn to finesse the pen, there isn't much difference.
Warm Regards,
Erica
Lettering & Design Artist
Flourish Forum Shop
Instagram

Offline Nickkih

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 789
  • Karma: 38
  • Be Brave
    • View Profile
    • Amore Paper and Ink
Re: oblique vs straight holders
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2014, 11:36:42 AM »
Thanks Erica. I struggle to master both holders. I bought a really nice oblique from John Neil but I like the cheap speedball oblique better.  Funny
Mom, Grandma, and Calligrapher

Offline Erica McPhee

  • Administrator
  • Super Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7201
  • Karma: 332
  • Be brave. Love life!
    • View Profile
Re: oblique vs straight holders
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2014, 11:40:44 AM »
I should also add that off-hand flourishing also called for a completely different pen hold than writing which may account for the preference of a straight holder.

With a few exceptions of some very well-trained calligraphers (and more so those from Europe), I think many of those offering online classes or selling starter kits started with a straight holder because they did not have formal training in pointed pen calligraphy.

Previous to the last three years or so, the majority of pointed pen classes, workshops, or textbooks would recommend the use of an oblique holder. But there you have the "birth" of "modern calligraphy." Rebels and rule breakers they may be!  ;D
Warm Regards,
Erica
Lettering & Design Artist
Flourish Forum Shop
Instagram

Offline Erica McPhee

  • Administrator
  • Super Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7201
  • Karma: 332
  • Be brave. Love life!
    • View Profile
Re: oblique vs straight holders
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2014, 11:41:43 AM »
Nickki,
I wouldn't try to master both. I would choose one or the other and then practice with that one. Otherwise, you may hinder your progress.  ;)
Warm Regards,
Erica
Lettering & Design Artist
Flourish Forum Shop
Instagram

Offline Erica McPhee

  • Administrator
  • Super Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7201
  • Karma: 332
  • Be brave. Love life!
    • View Profile
Re: oblique vs straight holders
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2014, 11:44:06 AM »
Also, I love the look of the wooden holders, but I can't use them. They are too smooth or small or "something" and fatigue my hand quickly or make it ache.

Sharyn, I'm not quite sure what you mean? Can you try to ask it a different way so I can help?  :)
Warm Regards,
Erica
Lettering & Design Artist
Flourish Forum Shop
Instagram

Offline Nickkih

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 789
  • Karma: 38
  • Be Brave
    • View Profile
    • Amore Paper and Ink
Re: oblique vs straight holders
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2014, 11:57:13 AM »
Erica - you hit the nail on the head! That's why I don't like the wooden expensive one I got, it's too something. It's beautiful but I just can't get it to work in my hand. And I think your absolutely right. I will stick with the straight and progress. Because I do feel its holding me back trying to master both. Thanks again Erica :-)
Mom, Grandma, and Calligrapher

Offline Martín

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 78
  • Karma: 10
    • View Profile
Re: oblique vs straight holders
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2014, 05:05:01 PM »
Erica - you hit the nail on the head! That's why I don't like the wooden expensive one I got, it's too something. It's beautiful but I just can't get it to work in my hand. And I think your absolutely right. I will stick with the straight and progress. Because I do feel its holding me back trying to master both. Thanks again Erica :-)

I prefer an oblique, but both Copperplate and Spencerian can be done with straight holders. One thing to consider is that you might not have a properly setup oblique, and that might complicate things. The speedball plastic holder is worth about as much as it costs (i.e. not much!). For the ones with a metal flange, you should set it up correctly, and make sure that the nib is properly seated, too. Joe Vitolo has a couple of videos on this topic on the IAMPETH website, if you're interested.

Offline kellyish

  • Freshman Member
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Karma: 1
  • practicing the art of an ordinary life
    • View Profile
    • minding my nest
Re: oblique vs straight holders
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2014, 09:26:43 PM »
oh my goodness you guys.

    dear oblique pen holder...where have you been all my life.   ;D

like alot of you, i started out with a straight pen.  just got my new oblique holder today in the mail.  it works so well with the way i hold my hand and my pen.  my hairlines and connectors are so much nicer.  thanks for starting this conversation and for the motivation to try it!
wife, mom, mess-maker extraordinaire, not-so-empty nester.

Offline Perfectsettings

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 330
  • Karma: 13
    • View Profile
    • Perfect Settings
Re: oblique vs straight holders
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2014, 09:23:30 AM »
Soooo here it is!!  Erica, you may want to delete my thread.
It seems that all the newbies are going through the same stuff at the same time!
Daisy
Lover of all things beautiful.

Offline Erica McPhee

  • Administrator
  • Super Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7201
  • Karma: 332
  • Be brave. Love life!
    • View Profile
Re: oblique vs straight holders
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2014, 07:03:43 PM »
It's all good. It's good to have it in more than once place! Here is the link which I think has a better explanation and includes a link to an informative diagram from Dr. Joe Vitolo at IAMPETH.

Oblique v. Straight Pen
Warm Regards,
Erica
Lettering & Design Artist
Flourish Forum Shop
Instagram

Offline patweecia

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 630
  • Karma: 13
    • View Profile
    • Patty Paperie
Re: oblique vs straight holders
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2014, 12:38:11 AM »
I got the simplest oblique holder from paper ink arts.  But now, am thinking, it's not really for me :(  Or maybe it just needs getting used to.  My hand feels weird when I write with the oblique holder, and my letters go all wonky...

patricia
instagram    |   blog    |   facebook