Do you have to follow posture procedures if end result is correct?

[Calligriophile]

I have only been doing Copperplate calligraphy for about 10 years now (ruining 2 couches along the way). Due to limitations where i am currently living, I can't seem to find a desk, let alone a desk with proper movement space so as to use my entire arm, place feet flat on the ground, and all the other requirements I read in IAMPETH's books. However, I have adequately compensated within my cramped space, and can make pretty good Copperplate pieces that I, if no one else, am very proud of. Which brings me to my question: how important is following the posture and "method" of writing in Copperplate if the end result is the same?
Granted, I would love a little studio to do all things by the book, buy that's not feasible right now.
So, is it still important (not just ideal) to always follow the recommendations set forth in the old books, and even new teachings that emphasize posture, if you can attain the same result.
More simply put: if you can write copperplate script without following all of the posture requirements that are still taught to this very day, is the prep work perhaps overstated?
 

[Ergative]

There have certainly been some discussions about that in the past. I suspect that the posture and so on is largely about your own comfort, rather than the quality of the work. In other words, sure, you sit all cramped and do beautiful stuff (I think our own Schin has confessed to doing her own work on the couch), but at the end of a session your neck and back might hurt in the way that they wouldn't at a proper desk.

I think a greater danger of compensating as you've been doing is that for ten years you've been teaching yourself to sit and work one way, and then when things work out and you get yourself the little studio, you'll have to unlearn all the habits you've been forced to develop. I myself have never been able to (make myself) relearn a proper pen grip, and perhaps as a result of this I get hand cramps after more than an hour or so that force me to stop.

[Rednaxela]

The posture and gripping guidelines etc. are there to take as many variables out of the equation as possible from the get go. If you took them out yourself your own way, and it doesn't show in your work in a negative way, I guess that's also fine. That said, I believe there's no harm in revisiting the recommendations from time to time. Sometimes things 'click' better after having gained some experience doing them differently first.

[jeanwilson]

After discussing this with many teachers, we mostly agree that -yes- when the student is wiling to try the recommended grips and postures, they can see and feel the improvements. The damage you do to your body with poor posture and death grips really sneaks up on you. It's like totaling your car because you were texting. Except you can get a new car. My tennis elbow took several months to heal and it is still prone to flare ups if I am not careful. I wish I had heeded the advice to lighten up the grip before I did the original damage. And tennis elbow is only one of many problems that scribes have. Thumb, wrist, shoulder, neck, back, head. Find the thread where many members offered their stories and you might be inspired to take steps to prevent consequences. Sorry - I do not recall the name of the thread - but I'm sure someone does.

[FlowerCityLetters]

@jeanwilson I believe it was this thread: http://theflourishforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=3234.0. Lots of good stuff there.

Just my two cents, I don't think you need to follow every piece of writing on posture and position in old books - everyone and every person's body is different. However, I think in even limited settings you should be mindful about your body. Try and sit so your arms are at 90 degree angles, sit on a cushion if necessary. This one step can really save your body from unnecessary tension. If your feet don't reach the floor, find some kind of box to rest them on.

I have bone spurs in my neck that can really cause issues if I'm not careful with my body. I think it's always a good idea to warm up your body before calligraphy, and be sure to take breaks. Jean is right, a lot of these issues creep up slowly and are hard, if not impossible, to reverse after the damage is done. The recommendations on posture are not so much to create a better end result with your writing, but to protect your body. I also want to add, once I started sitting at the proper height and with less tension my neck and shoulders, I was able to write more freely and with a lighter grip.

[AnasaziWrites]

The damage you do to your body with poor posture and death grips really sneaks up on you.

Tell me about it (working on my gothic here).

[Calligriophile]

Thank you to all of you kind people for responding to my question! I remember a long time ago, I actally tried to do everything as it is taught. My main problem, aside from lack of room, was that sitting straight up is difficult for me due to a messed up back from a car accident.
I still try, every so often, to do things the right way, but it just feels less than unnatural. I am sure part of this stems from me learning incorrect habits. I have no excuse, aside from the back problem, that prevents me from doing things the right way. In the near future, I plan on sitting at a desk in my room to try to correct this.

[ash0kgiri]

That's scary @AnasaziWrites. But true.

- Ashok

[AndyT]

In my opinion the important bits are to do with table / chair height, and not gripping the pen too tightly.  The former is crucial for styles which employ muscular or whole arm movement; perhaps less so if the predominant action is with the fingers, but at any rate it pays to be comfortable.  A slightly inclined board can make a big difference for some pointed pen writers.  A death grip will turn your whole forearm into a solid mass of tension and discomfort ... if you ask me large, heavy pens are very unhelpful, but some people seem to like them.  On the other hand delicate pens encourage delicacy of touch, and it's near enough impossible to exert a heavy handed grip on a quill.

That said, some of the older works go way too far in their prescriptions and assume that everybody is alike.  In particular I suggest that you take strictures about hand position with a good sized pinch of salt.  If someone says that it is essential to use the knuckles-parallel-to-the-table grip, do yourself a favour and track down a video of Donald Jackson and make up your own mind whether his technique is compromised by a tilted hand. 

[Salman Khattak]

The whole arm movement advice applies to Business and Spencerian hands more so than Copperplate.

Copperplate is more of a 'drawn' hand and depends more on a stable platform for execution. I wouldn't worry too much about sitting at a table if you can comfortably execute the strokes required for Copperplate without getting tired too quickly. Take frequent breaks - every 15-20 minutes to give your back a rest as well as the little muscles in your hands.

- Salman

[Calligriophile]

Thanks again, everyone! I truly appreciate, and respect, everything all of you have told me. I never got into calligraphy to make ornate pieces, except for the one wedding I wrote/drew the invitations for. That, my friends, was an exercise in patience. Especially after I realized I misspelled a couple names.
The older I get, the more difficult all scripts have become for me to execute. Even when I use a table, my right hands wants to shake to the point that my hairlines look like I'm drawing a maze. I'm only 36, (only) and I started at 12 years old with a set of "Elegant Writer" chisel/italic marker pens. Other than Copperplate, the only other hand that I am somewhat proficient with is Italic, and cursive italic.
Sidenote- I was one of those dummies that thought the equipment made the script, not talent, and I got ripped off on a $200.00 Pelikan italic nibbed pen, and it writes too small for my liking.

[AmyNeub]

I just returned from paying to get muscle knots massaged out of my back from poor posture. I used to do wedding work, i.e. Lots of envelopes per day and I guess my posture wasn't the best. I finally started to sit up and stretch, but it was too late for the knots. So now I pay a massage therapist to help knead them. Just be careful and take breaks. Don't fatigue and move slow.

[Christina Bouvia]

Calligriophile and AmyNeub,

I am 38 (...only haha) and I worked a desk job for 16 years, with calligraphy as a hobby, since I am 12 years old. Over 2 years ago I found my upper back all scrunched up.  I went to a message therapist a lot (about once a week for 6 months).  I'm feeling better now. 

After a regional layoff,  I dedicate my time to the calligraphy now.  I Definitely take those breaks & stretch.  I also ensure I am comfortable as I work. 

[RobertFontaine]

I suspect that if you were working as a clerks 60 hours a weeks or more on a wooden stool with a dip pen that posture would be critical to your ability to produce excellent quality work week after week without self injury. 

It would be interesting to know what a work week for a scribe in a monastery looked like.  Bible transcription was likely seen as a meditation and prayer so I would suspect some worked very long hours.

[RobertFontaine]

I suspect that if you were working as a clerks 60 hours a weeks or more on a wooden stool with a dip pen that posture would be critical to your ability to produce excellent quality work week after week without self injury. 

It would be interesting to know what a work week for a scribe in a monastery looked like.  Bible transcription was likely seen as a meditation and prayer so I would suspect some worked very long hours.