Author Topic: General Feedback - Copperplate  (Read 6849 times)

Offline Salman Khattak

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General Feedback - Copperplate
« on: March 26, 2018, 01:30:50 PM »
Hi all,

This topic is for the people who have completed the Copperplate lessons posted in this forum. Please post your questions here if you have completed all 4 groups in the Copperplate Minuscules.

We can discuss things like further refinements and alternate letter forms as well as compare notes on composition and other aspects of Copperplate Calligraphy.

- Salman
I have an opinion and I'm not afraid to use it.

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Offline Vipul

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Re: General Feedback - Copperplate
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2018, 11:21:11 AM »
@Salman Khattak

Hi,

This is a great idea. Have very recently completed the 4 groups, and with the 's' still suspect.
Struggling with the 'es' and 'ss' join. They just seem out.

Please guide

Regards
Vipul
« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 11:25:58 AM by Vipul »

Offline Salman Khattak

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Re: General Feedback - Copperplate
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2018, 12:38:37 PM »
@Vipul

Not sure why the 's' stumps you - you will note that the 'c' part starts well below the waist line which makes for an unbalanced letter. I can see the same tendency in the 'r' where the blob is too big and the shaded stroke is too short ('forget' on the last line).

For any composition, I recommend writing it out on rough paper to work out the spacing and layout. Then work on the problem areas like 'e-s' and 's-s' joins for you. This can be done as a separate exercise for 15 - 20 minutes. You will be amazed at what can be achieved with only a few minutes of concentrated work.

The 'e-s' join is nothing other than an 's' with the shaded stroke of the 'e' added to the beginning of it. So after you draw the shaded stroke of the 'e', lift your pen at the base line, forget about completing the 'e' and just draw an 's' starting with the entry hairline.

I hope this helps.

Slaman
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Copperplate Tutorial :: Toronto Pen Company

Offline Vipul

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Re: General Feedback - Copperplate
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2018, 11:03:59 AM »
@Salman

Hi,

Was busy with work and hence no practice for a while. I think that my writing is regressing  :-\
And you really need to post majiscule tutorials. PLEASE.

Wrote this today. Please suggest what to do....

Regards

Vipul

Offline Salman Khattak

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Re: General Feedback - Copperplate
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2018, 01:24:16 PM »
@Vipul

It does take a bit of practice to get back into the swing of things. If you use the 4 groups for practice, you will see things click back into place quickly. Consistency of stroke and slant is paramount and that requires a good feel for your paper, nib, ink and holder combination.

I have been meaning to put up a majuscules lesson or three for a long time but it takes a bit of doing and I am in the middle of revamping some of the minuscules lessons for a manual. I will get there eventually.

- Salman
I have an opinion and I'm not afraid to use it.

Copperplate Tutorial :: Toronto Pen Company

Offline Vipul

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Re: General Feedback - Copperplate
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2018, 12:41:55 PM »
@Salman Khattak

Hi,
Posting after some time. Been focussing on basics for a few days, on and off.

Written this and I know the slope of 'l' is out. The 's' is bad. However, my issue is regards basics....Squaring is an issue and even after going back and retouching, the tops are not square. I know practice is the key, but I've filled up pages with 'i' and its not improving. So I think I'm doing something basically wrong there. Hence request you to look and let me know where I'm going wrong.

The things I focused have been the 'o' and the compound curve. With regard the latter, the shape of the swell is understood, but I'm struggling to match the entry and exit stroke. Another thing I have focused on is the inter word spacing. but the inter letter spacing is still bad.

Suggestions or drills towards the above will be welcome, since just will power and concentration and prayer and hoping for a miracle have all not worked.

Regards,
Vipul

Offline Salman Khattak

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Re: General Feedback - Copperplate
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2018, 01:25:24 PM »
@Vipul

This is excellent Copperplate Vipul. The square tops look just fine to me. After all, this is handwritten. We are not going for mechanical uniformity here.

The eye of the 'e' is too big and the slant and weight variations are the only things I would work on.

BTW - the 'n' and 't' in 'don't' should be joined as usual with an apostrophe on top.

S.
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Offline Vipul

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After a big break.
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2018, 11:36:18 AM »
@Salman Khattak

Hi,

Had a big break of almost 2 weeks. Seems like I've forgotten most of it, inspite of spending a couple of hours doing drills and all the basic strokes yesterday.
Request point out specific areas that I need to focus on.

Here
I've tried to focus on the entry and connector strokes, though the spacing is still not there.
Request pointers and things to focus on.

Regards,
Vipul

Offline Salman Khattak

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Re: General Feedback - Copperplate
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2018, 12:35:11 PM »
@Vipul

I will only point out a few general things. We have covered all the lettering and spacing related issues in the lessons.

- I am not sure the very tall ascenders and descenders work with this tightly packed composition.

- The heavy shades add to the weight of the script which is already quite densely packed. Is that the effect you were going for?

- The weight of the letters varies too much - look at the weight of the 'o' and 'u' in 'your' in the 4th and 5th lines from the bottom. This discrepancy appears throughout.

- The size of the minuscules also varies - you will find several examples of this.

Compositions of this size are not easy so kudos to you for taking this on. This is not bad but these minor fixes will make it better still.

- Salman

I have an opinion and I'm not afraid to use it.

Copperplate Tutorial :: Toronto Pen Company

Offline Vipul

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Re: General Feedback - Copperplate
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2018, 02:38:38 PM »
@Salman

Hi,

Somehow, writing a long piece is difficult. Much more than producing a single word or even a line in good copperplate. Additionally, if I write at 8-10mm, the letters are much more controlled and better formed, but if I reduce them to smaller, it becomes a struggle. My aim is to write 'IF' on A4 sheet...but that looks like a really distant dream.

Tried to keep you points in mind, but the weight of 'f' in the latter part became really heavy. Tried to ensure -
  • All ovals are similar
    Intra-letter spacing (especially with the oval based letters like c, e a & d)
    Weight of the letters (though slipped up often on that)
    Consistent size of letters
    The overall effect of it being not so 'heavy'

Request a little detailed debrief, so can focus on micro things to improve the overall effect.

The squaring issue is still bugging me, and no matter how much I try, am not able to reduce the weight of the swells. Really don't know what to do there. Any suggestions?

Regards,
Vipul
« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 02:42:18 PM by Vipul »

Offline Vipul

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Re: General Feedback - Copperplate
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2018, 01:05:41 PM »
@Salman

Hi,

Focused on reducing the weight of the swells and a different 'f'. A lot of letters are not very well executed, and the 'f' is a failure :P

However, the weight seems ok, but its tough to maintain this. Request suggestions please.

Regards,
Vipul

Offline Salman Khattak

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Re: General Feedback - Copperplate
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2018, 01:26:51 PM »
@Vipul

Vipul - I think the main issue is spacing. I am not sure why you want to overlap the letters so much that descenders sometimes touch the minuscules on the following line. I think this is always going to look busy.

I suggest you look at some letters written Engrosser's script by past masters for ideas on spacing, weight and composition.

I am also not a fan of the overly long ascenders and descenders.

The consistency of weight in your last attempt is better than the previous ones but still needs improvement e.g. the two strokes in the 'n' in limitations on the second last line are different weights. There are other examples too but this was the closest.

Consistency of size is also still an issue. The 'blobs' of the 's' and the 'r' go more than halfway into the 1st ascender space. The 'r' is a bit too narrow and the 's' is way too narrow. We have already covered these in the lessons.

Compare the 'a' and the 'e' in 'careful' - they are different sizes.

BTW - you don't need to write the whole thing in one go. Take a short break every line or even every few words - this will improve your execution.

Some examples of letters: E. C. Enriquez W. A. Baird 1 W. A. Baird 2 (There are several more available with a bit of searching)

I have an opinion and I'm not afraid to use it.

Copperplate Tutorial :: Toronto Pen Company

Offline Vipul

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Re: General Feedback - Copperplate
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2018, 09:59:50 AM »
@Salman Khattak

Thanks for the detailed pointers. Went back to basics...mostly. Still tried the looping ascenders, and I definitely need work there. Reduced the size though.

Weight consistency is getting there...guess will take time.

Size - I realised that as I reduced the weight, there was a tendency to reduce the size, especially of the ovals. (All these have been done on your guidelines.)

Taking breaks helps, but the flow and concentration goes away. Almost made an 'a' and 'o'.

Was seriously considering starting your entire 4 groups again....this time with these thinner swells. Do you think that would help? Doing the entire series again, focussing on the weight and size - group by group?

Regards,
Vipul
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 10:01:28 AM by Vipul »

Offline Salman Khattak

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Re: General Feedback - Copperplate
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2018, 12:59:53 AM »
@Vipul

The page looks much nicer to me with the more generous spacing. It is indeed hard to be consistent when writing several lines so practice is key.

My goal for the lessons is to not only develop pen control and learn the structure but also to develop the eye to be able to critically analyze your (or others') writing. It is hard to critique your own work, especially after just having written it. Put is aside for at least 3 full days before looking at it and you will see it with new eyes.

I think it will do you well to practice writing a short line (maybe a quotation) and progress to longer ones as you become consistent and comfortable. There are no secrets - just diligent practice and study. It is the study part that most miss - you should spend at least as much time studying as you do writing. That is a tall order but we are lucky to have so may excellent examples from past masters available to us. I also highly recommend getting a copy of the Universal Penman and studying it on a regular basis.

As for practicing the groups again, I do that on a regular basis and it does help clean up my script.

- Salman
I have an opinion and I'm not afraid to use it.

Copperplate Tutorial :: Toronto Pen Company

Offline Vipul

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Re: General Feedback - Copperplate
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2018, 11:49:20 AM »
@Salman Khattak

Hi,
Back after a long break. Was shifting towns and moving bag and baggage takes a lot of time.... And locating supplies is an issue.
Anyway, put in some practice. Not happy with inconsistent shade thickness, but would like your opinion on the whole piece.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 12:00:23 PM by Vipul »