Author Topic: Everyday Penmanship Budding Student  (Read 3621 times)

Offline Erica McPhee

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Re: Everyday Penmanship Budding Student
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2020, 12:42:28 PM »
Please be mindful of posting other calligrapher’s work without permission. Thank you!
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Erica
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Offline jeanwilson

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Re: Everyday Penmanship Budding Student
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2020, 02:44:11 PM »
I just posted the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th groups of letters if you are working on your penmanship.
I chose a few words using each set of letters. Feel free to add any words you like.

I've switched from calling it *lessons* to calling it *tips* because it is way too casual to be formal lessons.
My tips should be added on to any set of formal lessons in any style.

Maybe someday I'll find time to do proper lessons and take time to create real exemplars.

http://pushingtheenvelopes.blogspot.com/2020/09/bonus-post-temporary-penmanship-tips.html

Offline Lyric

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Re: Everyday Penmanship Budding Student
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2020, 03:10:35 PM »
http://pushingtheenvelopes.blogspot.com/2020/09/bonus-post-temporary-penmanship-tips.html

On my way to print out.  Think I shall get a binder as I want to keep them organized and have structure to my learning of the "tips".   ;)

Thank you for your time and spirit.

ETA:

I have just read the blog post.   :D  Your writing is so pretty.  I really like lines 1 and 4.  Looking at them now really the look similar but no. 4 has flourishes (I cringe at those when practicing calligraphy).  Clearly too soon and I refuse to push myself and get discouraged over them.  But back to EDP (everyday penmanship).  I want to work smarter; not harder.  Therefore, I am taking your advice and NOT pushing ahead into unchartered waters a la the other lines.

Regarding rhythm:  I am thinking at some point in the coming weeks I will need to videotape myself and share to get feedback.  That outta be fun.  Like you said, I am brutally honest with myself so only good may come of it.  I'll just have to be sure and have my hands/nails manicured.   ;D ;D

Please, enjoy your trip.  No doubt just what is needed in this time of worry that many are facing.  Be safe; be careful.

Cyber hugs,
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 03:38:31 PM by lyric »
Cheerfully,
Lyric

Offline Lyric

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Re: Everyday Penmanship Budding Student
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2020, 01:52:38 PM »
I've switched from calling it *lessons* to calling it *tips* because it is way too casual to be formal lessons.
My tips should be added on to any set of formal lessons in any style.
http://pushingtheenvelopes.blogspot.com/2020/09/bonus-post-temporary-penmanship-tips.html

Hi Jean:

Hopefully your trip was fun and invigorating.  Posting here the answers to your two queries about what it felt like and what "I think of the looks of it".  :D

I was struggling with the concept of NOT adding the loops.  Consequently many of my words are all over the place while I was deciding whether to go above the guideline, for instance, for the "t" and "h".   :o The first pen I chose was too light.  The one I switched to skipped.  So, I am still figuring out a favourite pen.

Thinking guidelines would be best for me at this point I printed 5mm.  Well, as it stands, I do not write that large on a day-to-day basis.  I feel smaller "x" height would be better for me.  I have printed out 4mm and ready to use it for the next lesson and critique.

I think when not focusing on pens and loops it is not overly difficult to hit both top and bottom lines with a measure of concentration.  Clearly, in my handwriting now I do NOT concentrate on it which is more than likely ONE reason why it looks horrendous.  Ya know, it feels good to know all that is about to change.  ;D

« Last Edit: October 05, 2020, 08:44:54 AM by Erica McPhee »
Cheerfully,
Lyric

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: Everyday Penmanship Budding Student
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2020, 06:50:21 AM »
Thank you for posting the page of practice.
I see more consistency in the top example with the lighter pen. The pen that was skipping seems to have interfered with your ability to make smooth over-turns and under-turns.

I hope you have the patience to stick with these letters until you find a pen and paper that feels good. Have you tried a pencil?

On the h and l - extend them all the way to the line above - so that they are twice the height of all the short letters. The t does not need to be very tall. It just breaks through the top guide line and the crossbar can be quite close to the top guide line. It is OK if the ascenders and descenders run into each other at this time. Once you are practicing all the letters, you can start leaving one line of space between the lines and even start on some swoops - that will lead into the beginning flourishes.

I'll post another image - a little later - that will show some tips for consistent spacing and the over-under strokes.

I'm glad that you made the observation that hitting the guidelines was not something that you had been thinking about and that you see the value in doing so. It will not come overnight, but it will come if you keep at it.

It's fine if you want to try the 4mm guidelines. Although, stretching yourself to  write larger than normal is a very good way to force yourself out of your long established habit of your daily penmanship. I compare it to learning to do fine needlework. You would not start with the finest thread and tiniest stitches on silk. You would want to get the feel and learn the basic stitches on a fabric with more body, a large needle, and  regular embroidery floss.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2020, 02:19:09 PM by jeanwilson »

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: Everyday Penmanship Budding Student
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2020, 02:22:22 PM »
I just posted some more tips on my blog.
There is one quick example on maintaining a consistent slant.

You did such a good job of opening up your letters and including space between the letter.

I look forward to seeing the next practice page.

http://pushingtheenvelopes.blogspot.com/2020/10/penmanship-with-lyric.html

Offline Lyric

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Re: Everyday Penmanship Budding Student
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2020, 05:14:06 PM »
I look forward to seeing the next practice page.

Hello Jean,

Ay yi yi.  Wish I had seen this post BEFORE doing my drills today.  Matter of fact I just stumbled upon this now because I am here to post my work.

Oh well, I will incorporate what you state in tomorrow's work.  Now, I am off to see what you blogged.  ;D

Thank you.

ETA:  Thoughts about today's drills (hard to be objective when I have read the latest tips  ;D):

1)  I feel some kind of way that I do not have a "script" to go from; exemplar, perhaps is the word.  Maybe it makes no difference . . . . yet; not sure.

2)  Guidelines are totally necessary for me at this juncture.  The second page of my drills is Rhodia paper (remember I am still in the choosing stage)?  Well, of course the Rhodia is a better paper.  The penciled drills are photo copy paper (but it has the advantage of the guidelines printed on it).  I hear Rhodia has an unlined paper that I could print the guidelines on.  But, is it sensical to be spending that kind of money on practice paper?  I will be using reams and reams of paper drilling.  Therefore, I believe my paper of choice will be at best HP Premium 32# like I use for copperplate.  At worst, plain ole copy paper which is cost effective.

3)  I still have not settled on ONE pen.  I adore so many.  It is difficult to choose.  Perhaps I should settle on my TWISBI EF fountain pen and call it a day.  I love that pen.  For now I do not own one that I would use for penmanship practice.  The two I have are inked up with beautiful color.  Not going to use that on my drilling.

4)  I have printed 5mm guidelines on Hammermill 32# paper for my drills.  I kept with the 5mm per your response to yesterday's homework.  For now it still feels large and uncomfortable.  This is only day 2 so I am confident that will change sooner rather than later.

5)  I was comfortable writing with the 2b pencil.  However, I was under impression I am to be using a pen.

6)  I am answering the above from yesterday's tips; not today's.  Again, I will focus on what was shared today when I write my drills tomorrow (10/6/2020).

7)  I feel the pencil looks better, overall, than the pen.  Interestingly, by the time I got to using the pens (there were two) I had been writing for some time overall during this day.  I confess I must S L O W  D O W N.  Undoubtedly, that will address a couple of my issues.  I found myself saying "slow down" several times during my session.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2020, 05:51:40 PM by lyric »
Cheerfully,
Lyric

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: Everyday Penmanship Budding Student
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2020, 08:39:04 AM »
You are finding all of the important points on your own.
This is more helpful that trying to come up with a list of everything you need to consider.


1)  Feeling need for exemplar.
You may choose a style of penmanship that you like and work from an exemplar and see if you like it. This is all about you charting your own course. My approach of repairing your existing penmanship is to build on the shapes that you already make and find a way to make them more consistent. So, if you were taught Zaner-Bloser, you probably have lingering shapes from ZB. The first group of letters does not have anything that is enclosed so you may want to look at your three choices of a-shapes and decide if you want to start with one. The first option is Spencerian with a teardrop shaped a. The second option is italic which is more of an almond shaped a. The third is copperplate which I call capsule - because those a-shapes remind me of pill capsules. IMHO, Spencerian is the most organic and will give you the speediest writing. Italic is somewhat organic and will be almost as fast. Copperplate is the least organic and the slowest because you need to create some shapes that are symmetrical in both directions.

I actually worked on all three and my penmanship is a blend - but a thoughtful blend. Not a hodgepodge blend. I do not think it matters which one you try first. In my case, learning italic first was a good way to resolve a bunch of inconsistencies and I generally recommend it as good therapy for ugliness. But, some people love Spencerian and the Spencerian Ladies Hand is an excellent choice for an exemplar.

If you love copperplate - it will work.

2)  Guidelines.
My favorite and cheapest form of practice paper is lined notebook paper. I prefer the 5-Star brand - which is not the cheapest of the notebook papers - but it is ink-friendly. The cheapest notebook paper is pencil-friendly.

Because lined notebook paper is so thin, you can put one sheet behind the page you are writing on and rotate it to give you slant lines that you can see through the page you are writing on. Wide-ruled is great - but narrow-ruled is fine, too. Give this a try - it’s nice to hear that you are intending on doing a lot of practice - because it’s pretty hard to improve without a significant amount of practice. 

When I needed to do a lot of practice, I created a page of slant lines that fit behind the page I was writing on - by taping two pages together and cutting it to fit exactly.

Some of us do not like any of the printer papers for any kind of practice - they have a coating that we can feel. Notebook paper is meant for writing and does not have the coating. I agree, Rhodia is too expensive for practice paper - at this stage of the game.

3)  I still have not settled on ONE pen.
Keep trying whatever you find. It never hurts to practice with a variety of tools since you are working towards nice penmanship with whatever tool is at hand.

4)   I kept with the 5mm per your response to yesterday's homework.  For now it still feels large and uncomfortable.  This is only day 2 so I am confident that will change sooner rather than later.
I’m glad you are willing to stick with the weirdness of writing large. Peter Thornton has an excellent way of showing people how forcing yourself to have control of your movements at a large size makes it so much easier to achieve precision at a smaller size. Leading people through a process where they see the results come into focus right in front of their eyes is very convincing. I suppose I could describe the lesson in words — I might work that into these tips.

5)  I was comfortable writing with the 2b pencil.  However, I was under impression I am to be using a pen.
Yay— use the pencil - I have reservations about certain fountain pens -if they are heavy. Not all of them are heavy, and some people just love the feel. Just find something that feels great.


7)  I confess I must S L O W  D O W N.  Undoubtedly, that will address a couple of my issues.  I found myself saying "slow down" several times during my session.

I’m glad you are discovering this one on your own. One time, at an IAMPETH conference, some of us were sitting around talking about how we practiced and we all had rhythmic words or sounds that we ran through our heads. My sounds are *shu-clump-shu-clump-shu-clump*  I think shu (short u, like shut) on the upstroke and clump on the down stroke. Maybe you can find a rhythmic phrase to keep yourself from speeding up.

I think you mentioned that you are also working on copperplate with your nibs and ink. IMHO, it might be challenging to work on copperplate and then choose a different style for your penmanship — and switch back and forth. Advice from most teachers is to just stick with one style at a time. I generally agree — but I still leave it up to people to jump around if that sustains their interest. Some people thrive on variety and I do not like to impose my preferences on adults.

Here is where I draw the line on personal preference. Goofy grips. In the olden days, we were taught the proper way to hold a pen or pencil. As formal cursive lessons fell by the wayside, teaching kids how to hold a pen or pencil also fell by the wayside. I tried for several years to teach teenagers with goofy grips how to do calligraphy. There were a few young adults (20s and 30s) who also insisted that they *couldn’t* change their grip. Eventually, I politely dropped the topic. The issue was usually that they could not even see the tip of the pen because their hand was in a big, tight, clenched ball. Your hand and wrist need to be able to move. Technically, it is possible to write beautifully without that movement - but, unless a person has some physical limitation, my patience is exhausted with people who are not willing to even TRY the proper way of holding the tool. The debate over how to hold the pen turns into a power struggle — and I lost interest in trying to convince people that they were denying themselves the opportunity to expand their options.

Do you know the difference between finger movement, wrist movement, and whole arm movement?

Offline Lyric

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Re: Everyday Penmanship Budding Student
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2020, 11:21:35 AM »
Do you know the difference between finger movement, wrist movement, and whole arm movement?

I had formulated a response; hit some button and lost it all  >:(  Ok, from scratch again . . . .

Whole Arm Movement (WAM)

I have bookmarked a gentleman's site that is all about it.  Can not recall it this sec I thought it was www.wholearmmovement.com; but do not think that is correct.  After detailed explanation of what it is he goes on to discuss IF a person even needs to learn it.  He mentions knowing folk who have nice penmanship that do NOT employ WAM.  He admits it is difficult to learn.  And his bottom line is that it is important, LOL!

Writing with fingers moving = finger movement/writing; writing where my wrist moves = wrist writing; use of my forearm/shoulder = whole arm movement is my understanding.  WAM (not engaging the wrist) is excellent for larger letters, flourishing, majuscules.

My take on it:  I have a sneaky suspicion that I MUST learn, it; WILL learn it; but I don't wanna.   ;D ;D ;D  That is me being lazy.

@atvandenbosch stated my grip was okay.  Perhaps I should do a video and you can see.  Yeah, sounds like a plan.  Are you on Instagram, Jean?

Okaaay copperplate and business penmanship:

Uwww I wish my first reply had not been deleted.  Trying to condence what I initially said . . .  I began a calligraphy course in Jan., 2020 and very quickly found out 1)  I am not a fan of "modern" calligraphy my desire is engrosser's and 2)  I HAD to learn business cursive/business penmanship - whatever it is called.  The course was six months and I did not want to be a quitter so I persevered on with the thought that I would start american cursive/business penmanship in Jan., 2021; thereby giving myself one year with calligraphy.

Truth be told, had I known about business penmanship in January I would have begun with THAT.   But, here we are . . . my bottom line is that my penmanship is 1000% more important than calligraphy as I write letters every day . . . literally.  So, where do I go from here?  As in, do I hide away my oblique holders for years to come while learning business penmanship?  If I MUST calligraphy can go by-by (but boy is it lovely).

I am hoping you are seeing that I am old school . . . I have plans on paying attention to what you, my tip lady, says.  You are where I am trying to be so it would be counterproductive to butt up against your obvious knowledge (not to mention I am appreciative for the time your are sharing).  So, if my grip needs to change . . . done.  If I need to use larger gridlines . . . done.
Cheerfully,
Lyric

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: Everyday Penmanship Budding Student
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2020, 11:24:53 AM »

1)
I had formulated a response; hit some button and lost it all   
J: I compose my posts in a word doc - and then copy/paste into the forum - sometimes the posts just disappear - other times there are interruptions.

2)
Whole Arm Movement (WAM) - wrist movement - finger movement
J: it sounds like you understand how they work. Don’t worry about what different people recommend. You are open to trying things, so, it will be up to you to see what works for you. Obviously, when people try something new, and they like the results, they quickly forget whether or not they thought it was a good idea or a bad idea before they tried it.

It would be challenging to switch to whole arm all the time - but, it is a very natural movement for larger flourishing. The death grip and 100% finger-wiggling is not conducive to rhythm and gracefulness - so we try to nudge people away from those two things -bit-by-bit.

3)
@atvandenbosch stated my grip was okay.  Perhaps I should do a video and you can see.  Yeah, sounds like a plan.  Are you on Instagram, Jean?
J: Yes, I have an IG account, but have not actually done anything with it. I keep meaning to figure it out so I can have some real-time visits with pen pals. I don’t even know the name of those real-time exchanges — but have watched them and think they would be an ideal way to explain some of this stuff.

4)
Okaaay copperplate and business penmanship:

Uwww I wish my first reply had not been deleted.  Trying to condence what I initially said . . .  I began a calligraphy course in Jan., 2020 and very quickly found out 1)  I am not a fan of "modern" calligraphy my desire is engrosser's and 2)  I HAD to learn business cursive/business penmanship - whatever it is called.  The course was six months and I did not want to be a quitter so I persevered on with the thought that I would start american cursive/business penmanship in Jan., 2021; thereby giving myself one year with calligraphy.

Truth be told, had I known about business penmanship in January I would have begun with THAT.   But, here we are . . . my bottom line is that my penmanship is 1000% more important than calligraphy as I write letters every day . . . literally.  So, where do I go from here?  As in, do I hide away my oblique holders for years to come while learning business penmanship?  If I MUST calligraphy can go by-by (but boy is it lovely).

J: Don’t worry about starting, stopping, shifting gears, etc. There is a lot of overlap between styles and I disagree with people who suggest that there is one *best* way to learn. Yes, it helps to focus on one thing at a time - but some people thrive on a bit of variety. Trust yourself to gravitate towards the things that draw you in and feel good. Penmanship teachers earned their reputation of being rigid and inflexible and I'm happy to hang out at the other end of the spectrum - and let my student's work speak for itself.

4)
I am hoping you are seeing that I am old school . . . I have plans on paying attention to what you, my tip lady, says.  You are where I am trying to be so it would be counterproductive to butt up against your obvious knowledge (not to mention I am appreciative for the time your are sharing).  So, if my grip needs to change . . . done.  If I need to use larger gridlines . . . done.

J: Yup — old school appeals to you, so we can go that direction. You seem motivated - so I feel confident that we can achieve some lovely penmanship - and that you will enjoy the process. Do part of your practice large - and part of it smaller -- and see for yourself which looks best. We won't worry too much about the grip for now -- unless you have a death grip. I still have to work to loosen my grip at times. So, it's an ongoing process, to learn new habits and maintain them.

Looking forward to seeing your next page of work.

Offline Lyric

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Re: Everyday Penmanship Budding Student
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2020, 04:10:02 PM »
So, if my grip needs to change . . . done.  If I need to use larger gridlines . . . done.

Looking forward to seeing your next page of work.

I have been unable to get the video from my cell to email in order to upload here.  I hope these photographs OF the video will suffice.  I took two at different stages on the page.
Cheerfully,
Lyric

Offline Lyric

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Re: Everyday Penmanship Budding Student
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2020, 05:03:22 PM »
Week 1 - Day 3
Penwomanship Drills

As advised I wrote large at 5mm and then small at 3.5mm.  Jury ia still out.  Not sure which I like best at this point.  Pencil is the larger, pen is the amaller

I had only three things to focus on and it seemed a thousand ☺.  Not really?  Just a lot to think about . . .for NOW!  I ordered 5-Star notebook from Amazon.  It will arrive in 10-12 days (Prime too).
« Last Edit: October 08, 2020, 06:24:48 PM by lyric »
Cheerfully,
Lyric

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: Everyday Penmanship Budding Student
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2020, 01:49:01 PM »
The 5-Star notebooks are usually available at Target and office supply stores - if you prefer local to online shopping.

The patience that you have on the examples you posted show that you have the skill you need to do try well at copperplate or engrossers script. So, it has not been a waste of time to work on the symmetry of the basic shapes for copperplate. For your next page of practice, we are going to switch to italic. I'll make a new exemplar that gives you some more specifics.

Copperplate alone will not build the rhythm you need to establish. Your grip is OK for copperplate. It will work. But if you want the relaxing, speedy, lilt of a "running hand* - you'll need to branch out into something other than copperplate.

If the tip of your pen or pencil is just a tiny bit farther away from your hand, you will have a better view of what you are doing -plus- your hand will naturally do more wrist-movement. Both of those things facilitate the rhythm that we are looking for.

New exemplars coming....



Offline jeanwilson

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Re: Everyday Penmanship Budding Student
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2020, 05:42:57 PM »
Still working on the exemplars - but there are two videos on the blog showing the difference in speed and rhythm between copperplate and italic.

Some people feel as though they are drawing the individual letters when they do copperplate. For me, the best letters happen when the pen moves at a consistent speed - so it does feel more like drawing than penmanship.

The video of the italic shows the rhythm as well as the pressure on the down strokes.

http://pushingtheenvelopes.blogspot.com/2020/10/penmanship-with-lyric-no-4.html

Offline Lyric

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Re: Everyday Penmanship Budding Student
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2020, 06:44:27 PM »
The 5-Star notebooks are usually available at Target and office supply stores - if you prefer local to online shopping.

With exception of work I shelter-in due to worldwide pandemic.  Thus the order via Amazon.  Not to mention we live in the "kun"try, LOL, I have not seen a Target in YEARS!!!  The nearest office supply would be over an hour away.

For your next page of practice, we are going to switch to italic. I'll make a new exemplar that gives you some more specifics.

Okaaaay!!!!!!   ;D ;D


Copperplate alone will not build the rhythm you need to establish. Your grip is OK for copperplate. It will work. But if you want the relaxing, speedy, lilt of a "running hand* - you'll need to branch out into something other than copperplate.

I happenstanced on "copperplate" as a result of taking Becca's "Modern Calligraphy Course".  It was not intended as the hand I want to acquire for everyday writing/penmanship.  Calligraphy has always been of interest to me; finally pursued it.  Yes, but I am not confusing it with what is needed for everyday writing and notetaking.


If the tip of your pen or pencil is just a tiny bit farther away from your hand, you will have a better view of what you are doing -plus- your hand will naturally do more wrist-movement. Both of those things facilitate the rhythm that we are looking for.

Ok.  I will remember that going forward.  Of course I will have to re-shoot vid.  Hmm, there has got to be a way to upload here.  ::)

Cheerfully,
Lyric