Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate

[Salman Khattak]

That is a very valid question Ashok. Learning Spencerian should not cause any problems with your Engrosser's script once you have learned it. It would be difficult if you were learning the two together though. My comment was about using those drills to help you with the hairlines.

Interestingly, coming to Spencerian with a Copperplate/Engrosser's background sometimes causes problems with spacing. The spacing in Spencerian isn't as 'automatic' as Copperplate and needs to be based on the rhythm of the writing. In this respect Spencerian is closer to handwriting than Calligraphy IMO.

- Salman

[evjo]

Ashok & Salman -  I really hope you get to meet each other in person some day. 

[ash0kgiri]

The spacing in Spencerian isn't as 'automatic' as Copperplate and needs to be based on the rhythm of the writing. In this respect Spencerian is closer to handwriting than Calligraphy IMO.

That was a sign of relief Salman . That was indeed a very good explanation between both the scripts.
Eventually I wish to start Spencerian / Ornamental. I'm been greedy now 

Thanks,
Regards,
Ashok

[ash0kgiri]

Ashok & Salman -  I really hope you get to meet each other in person some day.

Hi EV,

I always knew you had clairvoyant powers 

- Ashok

[jeanwilson]

I never thought about Spencerian drills would be a hindrance to copperplate. So if i decide to learn spencerian would it come in my way of learning copperplate? Or is it after a point you adapt and switch accordingly? Sorry if I'm sounding vague.

Thanks,
Ashok

IMHO it is hard to predict what will happen when you hop around between styles. The late Glen Epstein was adamant that students should get to know the tool first. I agree with that, but it can be hard to rein in the student. They all want to get going with the alphabet and words. In my highly unconventional approach, I encouraged beginners to try as many styles as they wished. I would send them home with the Speedball Textbook and tell them to try them all and report back if there was one that felt really good. I had better results when I let students decide which style they wanted to do first.

Our earlier discussion about not hopping back and forth between copperplate and Spencerian was full of agreement. However, if you are itching to try Spencerian, there is no harm in setting your copperplate aside for a few days or even a few weeks - and trying Spencerian.

There is no way to test this, but I have a feeling that if complete beginners did a little more jumping around, it would actually help all the styles. You might become more versatile by stretching all the different "muscles." It's like a dancer who only studies ballet. If - after ten years of ballet - they tried to do hip hop, it might be really hard to get into that particular groove. Someone who starts dance by taking ballet, jazz, tap and hip hop in the first two years, might find it easier to switch between the styles. Maybe not. But I assure you Ashok, if you want to stop and try some Spencerian, it will not hurt your copperplate.

If you want to truly master one or both - then YES, you will need to buckle down and focus on one at a time.

My observation of the master scribes is this. Some of them truly excel -equally- at every style they know. Others are masterful at one style and proficient at all the others. It's very personal. You won't know where you will fall on the spectrum until you spend time with all of them - both pointed pen and broad edge. Other teachers generally agree - there is a lot of crossover skill that you build when you spend time with different styles and tools. Those students who have had one style for 15 years can be very stuck in that style and frustrated when they try something different. So, Ashok, this might be a good time to try Spencerian just to see what happens.

[ash0kgiri]

Hi Jean,

I buy your analogy between dancers. Loved it. Also I don't remember I ever mentioned that I'm itching to do Spencerian. It all originated on how would i make my hairlines better and confident as Im really struggling on the upstroke. So i tend to rotate the paper. Which Dr. Vitolo also suggest but for consistency. As you rightly said I also don't intend to wait that long that it becomes difficult for me to learn and other script.

But right now I'm really comfortable with copperplate. And before I eventually move to Braid's exemplars or any other which Salman recommends. I would like to have my hand on another script. It sounds a little unrealistic to me. But same was the case when I started copperplate 2 months back.
And as you suggested I will have to find my own way of dealing with both scripts or may be not?

I will definitely announce the day I wish to start my spencerian class and I know that experts in this forum will be the one helping me learn.

Thanks Jean for such in depth insights. I'm very lucky and fortunate to have people like you to talk to.

Regards,
Ashok

[ash0kgiri]

Hi Salman,

Next set of Majuscule letters, 'H' 'K' 'Y' 'D' 'B' 'P'.
Have a look. Let met me know what you think. 

Thanks,
Regards,
Ashok

[jeanwilson]

In addition to dance, another example of being well rounded can be found in sports. Some people only play one sport, which is fine. Others like to play many sports. There can be a lot of cross-over skill between sports. Or remember the football player Lynn Swan who used dance to augment his training. My painting professor required students to read Zen in the Art of Archery by Eugen Herrigel. This was 40 years ago when Zen/zen had not been appropriated by everything and everybody. I would recommend the book to aspiring artists. The way it presents certain elements and principles of archery is very harmonious with penmanship and any other form of art.

[ash0kgiri]

Hi Jean,

Very true. Never thought of this angle were a different approach would help you achieve something which is not directly connected to it. Would love to read that book you mentioned. Just found it on Amazon. Ordering it tomorrow

Thanks again for this valuable piece of information.

Regards,
Ashok

[AndyT]

Zen in the Art of Archery by Eugen Herrigel

Crikey Jean, that book has been comprehensively debunked as a work of Western romantic pseudo-mysticism which belongs on the same shelf as Carlos Casteneda and Lobsang Rampa.  If it helps, fair enough, but it has precious little to do with Japanese archery as practiced by anyone other than Herrigel - or at least not until he published it.  For a thorough demolition, try this.

[Scarlet Blue]

I found that learning to read music helped my focus in other areas.... ha, maybe I should make time for my saxophone again!

[jeanwilson]

Zen in the Art of Archery by Eugen Herrigel

Crikey Jean, that book has been comprehensively debunked as a work of Western romantic pseudo-mysticism which belongs on the same shelf as Carlos Casteneda and Lobsang Rampa.  If it helps, fair enough, but it has precious little to do with Japanese archery as practiced by anyone other than Herrigel - or at least not until he published it.  For a thorough demolition, try this.

Oops. I didn't get the memo.
Although, my line "This was 40 years ago when Zen/zen had not been appropriated by everything and everybody" was included because my intuition told me that any reference to Zen/zen can really annoy people. I imagine there are trendy books today that ponder many of the same topics - but dress them up in different clothes. Zen/zen seems so passe.

The parts I recall in the book about paying attention to your whole body - awareness - breathing - focus ---are all very generic concepts.
I don't think the idea of breathing has been debunked. Even if the book is a complete fabrication - as in fiction - it was something that resonated with me at the time. There were other book assigned. Some were actual fiction. It was part of the whole package - a mentor who offered a variety of methods for learning. The lesson was not so much the specific books, but the idea that you can learn a lot from other disciplines.

I would still recommend the book - as well as reading what the debunkers have to say.
My question to debunkers is always - OK. What do you have to offer in place of what you are debunking?
And then there will be someone who will debunk the debunker's offering.
I find the debunkers to be just as creative and fascinating as the *bunkers.*
What is the opposite of a debunker?

[AndyT]

Well, as I said if you find it helpful that's fine.  The same goes for Casteneda and Lobsang Rampa, I suppose.  However, I'm an old stick-in-the-mud who rejects the fact free society, and the fact is that Herrigel's account is fanciful - there is absolutely nothing creative about saying that.  I refuse to be drawn on what the opposite of a debunker might be.

The book is very well known and the cause of much rolling of eyes in archery circles - yes, that's another string to my bow, as it were.  (I am, in fact, an Archer (First Class) which isn't nearly as impressive as it sounds).  Some of the concepts do indeed chime with standard shooting practice, but they can be discussed without recourse to such an unreliable "authority".  Quite frankly, if you want mid 20th century Eastern mysticism written by a German but with genuine literary merit, Hermann Hesse is a far better bet.

[jeanwilson]

Thank you for clarifying that you have first hand experience with archery. That puts an entirely different spin on your comments. I truly appreciate learning more about the book and why it has been debunked. Hopefully the point I was trying to make about finding crossover between penmanship and other activities has not been lost. Because of my contact with so many other scribes who teach, I am confidant that it is worthwhile to encourage students to see the benefit of understanding that crossover. Are you aware of any other books that address the topic?

[Salman Khattak]

Hi Ashok - sorry for the delay in my response. I have been rather busy these past few days.

Here is my feedback on the exercises:

In general, you have lost the nice form of the stem stroke you demonstrated in the previous exercise. There are a few good ones there but most aren't that great. It takes a while to get consistent at it so keep plugging away.

Handyman - The H needs to be thinner i.e. the two vertical strokes should be closer together about 1/4th of the current width. Your curved strokes are thinner than the straight ones in the minuscules.

Kingfisher - The squiggle should connect to the stem stroke 2/3rds of the way up the stem stroke. The tiny loop between the two 'arms' should be slightly above the middle of the stem stroke. In the minuscules, the loop of the 'f' is crowding the tittle (i.e. the dot) of the 'i' - how would you fix that?

Yatchman - The stem on the 'Y' is a bit better but still not as good as the previous exercise. The 'Y' is supposed to sit on the base line - it does not have a descender. Only the 'J' and the 'Z' have descenders. The upper turn on the second strokes of the 'h' and the last 'n' are too tight.

Demonstration/Dangerous - The 'D' is a little thinner than that. This letter starts just like an 'L' except it keeps going to form the bowl and continue to the loop. Make the bowl thinner and extend the loop on the left a bit farther. This is a difficult letter.

Boundaries - The stem stroke is getting better now. The upper bowl should be slightly flatter than the bottom one. Also, the tiny loop between the two bowls look better if it is closer to the horizontal. The minuscule 's' is very nice.

Perseverance/Participant - I like this stem stroke. The bowl of the 'P' is the same as the first bowl of the 'B'. The starting loop on the left can be extended a bit more to the left. The slant in the minuscules is inconsistent.

I think you need to spend a bit more time with the stem stroke to get a firm grasp on it. It might be a rhythm thing as you seem to hit your stride towards the later stages and might have been too tentative in the beginning. The remaining letters in the first group should provide the practice you need IMO.

- Salman