Author Topic: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate  (Read 55470 times)

Offline Ken Fraser

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Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
« Reply #105 on: August 05, 2016, 04:14:33 AM »
I have a question. I think the answer might be somewhere in the past discussion, but, I do not have time to reread everything. When you make your ascender loops, are you making the left (shaded) side and then going back and making the right (hairline) side, from the top down?

If you tried making the hairline - right side stroke going up from the baseline and curving counterclockwise at the top and then pulling the shaded left side of the loop (so that it was one continuous stroke) - and that wasn't working for you - what exactly was not working?
Hi Jean,
I think that it depends on whether or not you want to incorporate the tiny shade on the hairline, right side. This is only possible if you write the letter in two strokes.
Historically (18th century) ascenders were almost always just a straight line (a). When loops were introduced (b) the letter was made just as you describe it "the left (shaded) side and then going back and making the right (hairline) side, from the top down". In this way, the small shade on the right side can be produced. It is interesting to note that there is no attempt to make the lead in hairline appear to connect continuously with the loop hairline. I'm self taught from Dick Jackson's "Copperplate Calligraphy"(c) He advocated a one-stroke letter, starting with a hitched hairline. Lastly (c) is the Engrosser's script form; written in two strokes as in (b) but with a larger loop which appears to be continuous from the lead in hairline.




As others have noted, excellent progress Ashok!
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 04:18:09 AM by Ken Fraser »

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
« Reply #106 on: August 05, 2016, 07:32:22 AM »
thank you, ken, for the info on the loops.
do you have time to add notes on the r and the s?
there are so many variations - and i do not do any *formal* copperplate or engrosser's script.
i only do handwriting that in complementary to fonts.

ashok - do you intend to learn a specific style - or are you going to combine a variety of exemplars and come up with your own personal style? it doesn't matter to me which way you are going - but it is helpful to know before making any additional comments.

Offline Ken Fraser

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Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
« Reply #107 on: August 05, 2016, 08:10:45 AM »
ashok - do you intend to learn a specific style - or are you going to combine a variety of exemplars and come up with your own personal style? it doesn't matter to me which way you are going - but it is helpful to know before making any additional comments.

Good point, Jean.

I think that Ashok mentioned earlier that he/she was studying Engrosser's Script and, in particular, following Dr Joe Vitolo's instructions on IAMPETH.
Nevertheless, the confusion between Copperplate (English Roundhand) and Engrosser's Script seems never-ending and early clarification as to preference, is to be welcomed, as this avoids too many sidetracks!

BTW I quoted your description of how the ascender loop is constructed, as it explains the situation perfectly and I couldn't think a clear way of describing it!
Sometimes explaining these complicated details is a bit like describing a spiral staircase to a blind man!

I'll put something together on the r and the s in the next couple of days.

Ken
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 08:14:53 AM by Ken Fraser »

ash0kgiri

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Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
« Reply #108 on: August 05, 2016, 10:06:11 AM »
ashok - do you intend to learn a specific style - or are you going to combine a variety of exemplars and come up with your own personal style? it doesn't matter to me which way you are going - but it is helpful to know before making any additional comments.

"I think that Ashok mentioned earlier that he/she was studying Engrosser's Script and, in particular, following Dr Joe Vitolo's instructions on IAMPETH.

Hi @jeanwilson, @Ken Fraser,

Appreciate your comments and feedback.
It's too early for me to even talk about creating my own style. Right now Im only focusing on Copperplate (Engrosser's script) and as Ken rightly mentioned I started with watching Dr. Vitolo's videos on IAMPETH. I also want to learn Ornamental script, but that will be a little later and will clearly ask for guidance from this forum when I decide to start.

Ken many thanks for sharing the ascender loop construction. Will surely be very helpful.

Hope I have covered all the points. Feel free to ask if i missed on anything.

Regards,
Ashok
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 06:59:49 PM by ash0kgiri »

ash0kgiri

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Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
« Reply #109 on: August 05, 2016, 07:13:34 PM »
Hi @SMK,

Back with the 'stem stroke' practise sheets.
Also have worked on the 'r' and 's' as per your last feedback.
Have chosen words with 'o-r' join and 'o-s' join.

Take a look. Waiting for your comments.

Thanks,
Regards,
Ashok


Offline Salman Khattak

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Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
« Reply #110 on: August 05, 2016, 10:54:27 PM »
Hi Ashok - the stem stroke shape is pretty good now but the shade is a tad too heavy. If you are going by the workshop notes, the stem stroke by itself is made a little heavy in these to illustrate the transitions better. You will see the shade isn't as heavy in the 'I'. I think it is time to start with some I, S, T & F words.

Also, let me point you to a couple of my favourite exemplars. I am a big fan of  Lupfer's example here. Notice how delicate the lettering in general is but especially the stem stroke in the majuscules. This example also has an alternate 'r' you might want to try.

Also of note is this example from W. A. Baird. - In some respects this is even better than Lupfer's example above. This, has yet another 'r' you can learn.

Now for the 'r's in your examples - you have it right in 'hackamores' but you have a tendency to bring the shoulder down too far. How about switching to Lupfer's 'r' for a bit just to give yourself a break. Sometimes it helps to walk away from a thing for a little while.

The down stroke loops are better shaped but your hairline is still too thick. The hairline part of the loop should be no thicker than the hairlines in the joins. Also, notice the shape of the loops in Baird's example - that is the one to copy.

It might feel like you are spinning your wheels a bit here but you are making progress - you just haven't broken through yet. You have come further than most. This is where a lot of people would give up and just settle for good enough. I'm with you if you are up for pushing through.

Salman
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Copperplate Tutorial :: Toronto Pen Company

ash0kgiri

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Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
« Reply #111 on: August 06, 2016, 02:21:31 AM »
This is where a lot of people would give up and just settle for good enough. I'm with you if you are up for pushing through.
Salman

Hi Salman,

Believe me. Not for a second I ever thought to settle for what I have achieved in these couple of months nor felt that my practise is not fruitful in any way. I really love to write and your comments are taking me back to my desk again to write :D. I'm really up for whatever it takes to perfect this script and please don't hesitate to push me even further in whatever way you feel right.

The shade of the stem stroke i had kept it heavy intentionally as to understand the transitions better. Infact I was trying to match that to your workshop notes. Once i get the correct transition I thought i would lower the pressure and do some drills with that. If you see start of line '4' in my practise sheet i had done few with lighter hand. I do realise that overall it shouldn't be that heavy. Let me send you another round with lighter shade followed by the letters you mentioned :D.

The exemplars of 'Lupfer & Baird' are just wonderful to watch. The blob in Lupfer's 'r' comes up from the waist line and doesn't in Baird's 'r' and it just till the waist line... Correct me if I'm wrong.

Will take a different approach for the hairline in down stroke loops. Like turning the paper and treating it like a upstroke or a continuous loop (but Im worried about consistency). Baird's example is just too good.

Also Salman i wanted to ask you about the speed at which you write copperplate. I know and you have also mentioned in your earlier post that its written slowly and thats exactly what Im doing. But i think Im writing it really very slowly and because of that I feel that the hairlines are sometimes uneven and breaky. Is there any video i can see which gives me an idea of the speed at which you should write?

Thank a lot for your taking time to comment. Really appreciate.

Regards,
Ashok

Offline Salman Khattak

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Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
« Reply #112 on: August 06, 2016, 03:38:53 AM »
Hi Ashok - I will send you a link to a video I made for a workshop where we couldn't cover some of the letters. It is a private video since it was made for a specific purpose. It will give you some idea of the speed I write at. However, that is just the speed I write at and not the recommended speed in any way. You will see some penmen write slower while others are much faster. You should write at a speed that is comfortable for you - as long as the stroke is ALWAYS in your control. 

You are right about Baird's 'r' - the blob does start at the waist line. The first stroke is an inverted 'i', the second starts like another inverted 'i' but stops at the waist line - the time blob shade is drawn to the right of where the hairline stroke and matches the shape of the blob at the end of a 'w' , 'v' or 'b'.

If you are to follow an exemplar, follow Baird's. I don't really see the need for anyone to present exemplars when we have such excellent specimens to study from.

BTW - do you know the story about Lupfer when he joined the Zanerian College of Penmanship? The story goes that he showed such poor results after a few weeks of study that Zaner called him in his office and offered to refund his fees if he wanted to quit. Zaner did not think Lupfer had the required skill and control to be any good at penmanship. Needless to say, Lupfer refused, got to work and became one of the best penman of his time. He eventually rose to become the Principal at the Zanerian college.

Salman
I have an opinion and I'm not afraid to use it.

Copperplate Tutorial :: Toronto Pen Company

Offline Ken Fraser

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Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
« Reply #113 on: August 06, 2016, 03:59:10 AM »
Hi Ashok,

Just a small point, but an important one.

Written English Roundhand (Copperplate) and drawn Engravers's (Engrosser's Script) and not the same thing. Although connected, there are many differences between the two.

You appear to be studying Engrosser's Script and Salman's examples by Baird and Lupfer, and indeed by Dr J Vitolo, are Engrosser's Script.

If you look at these examples of English Roundhand (Copperplate) by Enoch Noyes, you'll see the clear differences.

http://www.iampeth.com/pdf/noyes-penmanship

Ken
« Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 04:16:40 AM by Ken Fraser »

ash0kgiri

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Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
« Reply #114 on: August 06, 2016, 05:57:34 AM »
Hi Ashok - I will send you a link to a video I made for a workshop where we couldn't cover some of the letters.
Salman


Hi Salman,
Thanks for sharing salman. Its was so nice to see you write :D. Watched it atleast 5 times. And now i feel like going back to minuscules an doing it again.

Thanks for the clarity on the the exemplar's and its worth studying from these great penmen. Lupfer's story is just unbelievable. Wondering would he had practised to become the best penman of his time?

Regards,
Ashok

ash0kgiri

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Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
« Reply #115 on: August 06, 2016, 05:59:49 AM »
Hi @Ken Fraser,

Thanks for link. Will have a look. Really appreciate.

Ashok

Offline Ken Fraser

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Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
« Reply #116 on: August 06, 2016, 08:15:10 AM »
As Jean suggested earlier, here are comparisons of the letters r and s.

(1) is English Roundhand  in the style of the letter r from the 18th century "The Universal Penman".

(2) is the Engrosser's Script equivalent. It's somewhat wider, in slightly heavier weight and with a larger, more open, loop.
The second, upward hairline emerges much earlier from the downward shade.

(3) is a different form of the Copperplate r which is widely used.

(4) is the Spencerian form. From the top, the second stroke slopes down much more severely and the letter is lighter       overall, with very light shading.

(5) is the letter s from the same English Roundhand (Copperplate)  family as (1) Note that the terminal dot is bisected by the hairline.

(2) This s is in Engrosser's (Engraver's)  script with the shading more evenly distributed from top to bottom. The dot stops short of the hairline.

(3) This is a Spencerian s. Much narrower with no shading and no terminal dot.

« Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 08:18:01 AM by Ken Fraser »

ash0kgiri

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Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
« Reply #117 on: August 06, 2016, 08:56:01 AM »
Hi Ken,

This is really useful. Thanks for all the effort and sharing.
Really appreciate.

Regards,
Ashok

ash0kgiri

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Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
« Reply #118 on: August 06, 2016, 04:59:40 PM »
Hi Salman,

Another attempt with the stem stroke with lighter shade. What I also realised that a little speed while making those strokes was useful to make it look seamless. Followed by the letters 'I' 'S' 'T' & 'F'. As compared to your worksheet nowhere close :(  Marked the ones which I felt were visually ok. Would be happy to know your valuable comments.

Thanks,
Regards,
Ashok
« Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 05:02:41 PM by ash0kgiri »

Offline Salman Khattak

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Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
« Reply #119 on: August 06, 2016, 06:14:50 PM »
Nice exercise Ashok. The stem loops look very nice now and even more refinement will come with time as you study the exemplars from the masters.

The shade on the loop of the 'I' and and the 'S' and the crossbars of the 'T' and 'F' are supposed to be half the width of the main shade. It doesn't have to be exact but should be visibly lighter than the main shade.

There is a lot of variation in the shape of the crossbar in examples from various penmen. I think you have it very nicely in the 'F' you tick marked as well as the 'F' next to it. It is more important to be consistent so all your crossbars match. The 'T' is varying a bit too much but I think you got a good handle on it by the time you got to the 'F'.

The 'S' you marked looks very good to me. The curve at the bottom could be a little flatter - like the first 'S' on that line.

You can make good letters - the next step is to develop consistency. Here's your next task - and it is a little difficult but I think you can manage it. Practice all the majuscules I, J, S, T, F & L in groups of 5 until you can get at least 3 out of 5 right. Post one word starting with each letter. The Majuscules, joins, spacing and letter shapes should all be perfect. Don't post it if you can see a flaw yourself.

Feel free to ask questions if you have any (and post examples) but I expect the final exercise to be a perfect rendering using all the knowledge you have gained until now.

Salman
I have an opinion and I'm not afraid to use it.

Copperplate Tutorial :: Toronto Pen Company