oblique vs straight holders

[ErikH]

Same here - for me it just feels weird to use (although maybe I should have kept at it for more than 10 minutes...).

Perhaps one day I'll try again with more dedication, but for now I'll stick to my straight holders, both for flourishing and for writing

[Erica McPhee]

I feel it is one of those "start as you mean to go on" things. Once you become comfortable with the straight holder, you most likely won't switch over. Some do, but it is like learning all over again. 

[Linda Y.]

It's so interesting to read everyone's preferences! I learned with an oblique, and so when I switch to straight (which I rarely do), my hand starts to hurt after a few lines. With an oblique, I can write for hours!

[Erica McPhee]

LOL! My lettering looks like a 3rd grader's with a straight holder. 

[AndyT]

An oblique holder was a revelation to me - suddenly those low capital stem shades I'd been struggling with started making themselves.  Apparently some people maintain that they're only appropriate for Spencerian and Ornamental Penmanship, as opposed to copperplate, though why that should be escapes me entirely.

[FrenchBlue Joy]

Do you mean the swelling point on the stem which is near to the baseline, like in the Spencerian D?  It's true, it's higher up the stem in Copperplate /engrossers, and is supposed to thin out again before it reaches the baseline.  Nothing to stop you mixing and matching different styles, though!

[Ken Fraser]

Replaced by a new posting 08 03 21

[AndyT]

Hello FrenchBlue Joy, yes that's just what I mean.  I have my doubts whether I've got the hang of the attachments system here yet, but all being well there ought to be a nice little swirlicue by C P Zaner accompanying this by way of illustration.  Also, I now remember that it was Paul Antonio (no mean penman in either style) who voiced reservations about oblique holders for copperplate in one of his seminar videos on Vimeo, but I still don't understand his reasoning.

[Brad franklin]

I hate to beat a dead horse here but I want to bring up some points. I still am not conformable with a oblique holder after 7-8 months what ever it is. It just feels unnatural in my hands. So here are my point please note none of these opinions or facts are mine. I got them off from Wikipedia and Paul Antonio's Copperplate class. If you do not know Paul is a Master Scribe in London who is a very successful calligrapher. here are the point (from wiki. or Mr. Antonio)
copperplate was created in around
 1604 by Lucius Mataro (sp)
dipped steel pens where not created till 1803 with a possible letter mentioning a steel pen in 1724-1726.
 So obvious they used quills before the steel pen was invented (this is what I assume may be wrong) quills are not oblique so how did they write Copperplate with them?

Paul concern with oblique holder are as follows: The way you have to hold the nib flatter to the paper the tines open more easier, which is good for Spencerian
which is why you will fond him using a oblique holder for Spencerian only.
Also the tines do not snap back as readily and requires more control with the oblique holder. Plus you move along alot faster and as you write since you are pushing the script in another direction the angle might change from 55 degrees to 60 if not careful. And you can not do the proper T and Q without having to move the paper or holder the holder sideways. There is a video accompanying all of this which he said.

So to rap it up I am sorry if it is long winded, I have ask IAMPETH and they told me to use the oblique in ALL pointed pen. If I took a lessen from Paul he would want me to use the straight holder, which is more comfortable to me. What do you my fellow peers think or your opinion?

 

 

[AndyT]

Brad, no-one can say that you haven't given the oblique holder a fair chance after 8 months, and you're under no obligation to persevere with it if you don't get on. 

I'm neutral about this business of whether an oblique holder is suitable for roundhand because I have no copperplate experience whatsoever.  As you say, plainly a straight pen or a quill will work, so the answer from IAMPETH sounds rather doctrinaire to me.  If memory serves, in addition to the things you mention Mr. Antonio also says that the line of universal beauty has a tendency to change into an asymmetric Spencerian capital stem shade with an oblique.  There may well be a grain of truth in that, although frankly, I wish that tendency was more pronounced. 

There's a strong case for right handers using an oblique holder for Ornamental Penmanship - in fact the style is partly defined by it - but otherwise I see no reason for putting up with discomfort if you're getting results with a straight one.

[Mandy]

I started out with calligraphy over 2 years ago and since then, I've mostly been using a straight holder. I do have the plastic oblique fr Speedball and it was only very recently that I got myself a wooden century(...) oblique fr John Neal. I'm ok with both, I prefer using a straight so far, only because I can't always fit the oblique into the ink bottle (hahaha -- I do realize that this is easy to solve ).

But it is quite helpful for beginners to learn with an oblique so they can "lay" the tines of the nib evenly and not hold the nib in an awkward position.

[Nickkih]

I think whatever your preference is is fine. I started out with a straight but switched to a oblique and I love it. I use the straight for Modern calligraphy and sometimes for flourishing. I had a few custom holders made by Brian at Unique Obliques and I find them much better than the speedball or century and I have both of those too. Brad give that Beautiful holder that Brian made for you a little bit more of a chance before you throw in the towel on Obliques altogether.

[Heebs]

As Andy said, you certainly gave the oblique a fair try and if you're more comfortable with the straight holder I'd stick with it. It really should be what you feel works best for you.

Paul's reasons for using a straight holder are valid but it's all down to comfort and what you're accustom to. I have no problem turning the paper to finish off a T because the overall experience with an oblique for me is far superior to a straight holder (I would have to turn my paper at an insane angle to get the slant on my letters without the right tine ripping into the paper). I would have a hard time giving up the flexibility of a flange in terms of customizing my nib angle and tilt. I've tried a straight holder and while it's great for certain things I can't do any slanted work properly while others have an easy time doing it.

I would never tell anyone they absolutely have to use one over the other, do what works and enjoy calligraphy.

[Brad franklin]

I think whatever your preference is is fine. I started out with a straight but switched to a oblique and I love it. I use the straight for Modern calligraphy and sometimes for flourishing. I had a few custom holders made by Brian at Unique Obliques and I find them much better than the speedball or century and I have both of those too. Brad give that Beautiful holder that Brian made for you a little bit more of a chance before you throw in the towel on Obliques altogether.

I would never throw the towel to that beautiful holder from Brian. I do use it. Most of the time I use an oblique, but was thinking about the above statement. 

[Ken Fraser]

But it is quite helpful for beginners to learn with an oblique so they can "lay" the tines of the nib evenly and not hold the nib in an awkward position.

That's correct.  For the nib tines to spread evenly with consistent shading, the nib has to point at the slope angle. With an oblique holder this is  possible with a comfortable, normal handhold, but is very difficult with a straight penholder unless you are a contortionist (or left-handed). Here's an example of the tines opening evenly.