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General Categories => Spencerian Script => Topic started by: Brad franklin on March 13, 2014, 12:41:05 PM

Title: question about Spencerian Script
Post by: Brad franklin on March 13, 2014, 12:41:05 PM
What is the difference between  Spencerian Script and Spencerian Ladies Hand? Beside the obvious, why are they separated?
Title: Re: question about Spencerian Script
Post by: schin on March 13, 2014, 02:38:30 PM
It's almost the same.. in fact Spencerian Ladies Hand was developed by PR Spencer and sons in order to market this handwriting to women and to sell more products to them :)
Title: Re: question about Spencerian Script
Post by: Erica McPhee on March 13, 2014, 03:29:04 PM
LOL! I just love writing Spencerian Ladies' Hand ... it makes me feel so feminine -- said no woman ever.  ;D
Title: Re: question about Spencerian Script
Post by: Brad franklin on March 13, 2014, 03:30:35 PM
I just want to make sure when I start learning the script I'm doing the manly version ha ha
Title: Re: question about Spencerian Script
Post by: Erica McPhee on March 13, 2014, 03:38:07 PM
LOLOLOLOL! I literally laughed out loud Brad!   ;D
Title: Re: question about Spencerian Script
Post by: schin on March 13, 2014, 07:32:24 PM
Haha don't worry about it Brad! :) It was men who came up with that script after all!
Title: Re: question about Spencerian Script
Post by: tintenfuchs on March 14, 2014, 03:03:54 AM
It's probably like Coke Light and Coke Zero. Both will kill your teeth slowly, but one will do it in a manly fashion. :D
Title: Re: question about Spencerian Script
Post by: Blotbot on March 14, 2014, 09:34:00 AM
Is it the same with roundhand and Italian style?  There are two styles in the Bickham books.  The Italian is very similar to roundhand, be seems a slight bit less forceful. 
Title: Re: question about Spencerian Script
Post by: Ken Fraser on March 19, 2014, 05:39:14 PM
Brad :

Spencerian Ladies Hand is basically the same as Spencerian Script but slightly more compressed. The most noticeable difference is the extended looped ascenders and descenders - sometimes even more than I've shown here. Also, the majuscules are constructed differently and the shading overall is much lighter. Presumably, this was to give a more delicate "feminine" look to the lettering. Anyway, it's just a name and both sexes write it.

(https://theflourishforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi226.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd289%2Fcaliken_2007%2FSpencerianLadiesHand600.jpg&hash=36be2e2d555319550e0f9f86419779ec)
Title: Re: question about Spencerian Script
Post by: Brad franklin on March 20, 2014, 12:10:07 AM
Thanks Ken for the exemplar.
Title: Re: question about Spencerian Script
Post by: Ken Fraser on March 20, 2014, 07:39:54 PM
Blotbot :

Copperplate (English Roundhand) and Italian Hand are actually quite different and require different techniques in writing. At an enlarged size, this word first in Copperplate and then in Italian Hand demonstrates just how different the two script are.

(https://theflourishforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi226.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd289%2Fcaliken_2007%2FCopperplateampFrenchHand500.jpg&hash=7c1b614f89daf898d50c112c729fc410)
Title: Re: question about Spencerian Script
Post by: Blotbot on March 20, 2014, 07:57:18 PM
So how do you write the Italian hand?  The shading isnt always on the downstoke.  Do you write with a flat edge and twist it?
Title: Re: question about Spencerian Script
Post by: Ken Fraser on March 21, 2014, 04:47:18 AM
Italian Hand was probably written originally with a flat nib, twisted occasionally, as you say. However, I write it with a pointed nib, as it's much easier, and just fill in the little horizontal shades. Actually. it's tedious to write and hardly worth the effort as it's not the most attractive hand IMO.

(https://theflourishforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi226.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd289%2Fcaliken_2007%2FItalianHand500.jpg&hash=7a1d99949c586383bbfe7fdb13ec7d0a)
Title: Re: question about Spencerian Script
Post by: Faeleia on May 29, 2014, 10:31:00 PM
I just want to make sure when I start learning the script I'm doing the manly version ha ha

Ladies hand always seems kind of tall and lithe, simple and with a light touch to me, much like modern day 'feminine' standards.

Then it would be best to make sure yours is muscular and assertive, with large and excessive loops to show them light hands that you can do much better!, and you'll write none of damn 'love', 'beautiful', 'delicate', 'poem', 'birds', 'vegetables' words. Pssh. A man writes things like 'Dragon', 'Fire', 'Axe', 'MAN', 'soccer', 'testosterone', 'raw meat'. Your paper will be rough, made from the skin of murdered animals, and have charred edges to indicate the power embedded into such writing has such fire that it singes the corners from raw MANLINESS!

I even imagined a nice fire pit by some high and snowy mountain and the oblique pen fashioned out of elephant tusks by the writing board just to complete the image. I clearly need some reality check.

 ;D
Title: Re: question about Spencerian Script
Post by: Moya on May 29, 2014, 11:55:38 PM
I just want to make sure when I start learning the script I'm doing the manly version ha ha

Ladies hand always seems kind of tall and lithe, simple and with a light touch to me, much like modern day 'feminine' standards.

Then it would be best to make sure yours is muscular and assertive, with large and excessive loops to show them light hands that you can do much better!, and you'll write none of damn 'love', 'beautiful', 'delicate', 'poem', 'birds', 'vegetables' words. Pssh. A man writes things like 'Dragon', 'Fire', 'Axe', 'MAN', 'soccer', 'testosterone', 'raw meat'. Your paper will be rough, made from the skin of murdered animals, and have charred edges to indicate the power embedded into such writing has such fire that it singes the corners from raw MANLINESS!

I even imagined a nice fire pit by some high and snowy mountain and the oblique pen fashioned out of elephant tusks by the writing board just to complete the image. I clearly need some reality check.

 ;D

Hahahahahahahaha!!!! LOVE IT!~
Title: Re: question about Spencerian Script
Post by: tintenfuchs on May 30, 2014, 05:41:07 AM
OMG Faeleia :D that's hilarious.
Title: Re: question about Spencerian Script
Post by: Milonguera on May 31, 2014, 03:27:51 PM
I just want to make sure when I start learning the script I'm doing the manly version ha ha

Ladies hand always seems kind of tall and lithe, simple and with a light touch to me, much like modern day 'feminine' standards.

Then it would be best to make sure yours is muscular and assertive, with large and excessive loops to show them light hands that you can do much better!, and you'll write none of damn 'love', 'beautiful', 'delicate', 'poem', 'birds', 'vegetables' words. Pssh. A man writes things like 'Dragon', 'Fire', 'Axe', 'MAN', 'soccer', 'testosterone', 'raw meat'. Your paper will be rough, made from the skin of murdered animals, and have charred edges to indicate the power embedded into such writing has such fire that it singes the corners from raw MANLINESS!

OMG, that was hilarious! 

I even imagined a nice fire pit by some high and snowy mountain and the oblique pen fashioned out of elephant tusks by the writing board just to complete the image. I clearly need some reality check.

 ;D
Title: Re: question about Spencerian Script
Post by: AnasaziWrites on June 20, 2014, 06:22:43 PM
What is the difference between  Spencerian Script and Spencerian Ladies Hand? Beside the obvious, why are they separated?
As Schin says, perhaps to broaden the market for textbooks, as most master penman of the age were men.
Not sure if this thread is still active, but here's a nice example I collected some years ago.

(https://theflourishforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi884.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac50%2Fanasazisphotos%2FLadiesHand001.jpg&hash=84a4e15127b4e81f566c13c0a9deb934) (http://s884.photobucket.com/user/anasazisphotos/media/LadiesHand001.jpg.html)
Title: Re: question about Spencerian Script
Post by: Brush My Fennec on July 07, 2014, 06:42:44 PM
The idea (and its practice) that women should write a different style to men was existent hundreds of years before the Spencers were selling textbooks and I think the idea is more likely to have originated with the different status and roles of men and women in American and British society leading to different expectations about how they'd use their handwriting and Spencer was simply continuing with that idea.

A book produced by George Bickham's son (also called George Bickham) in 1733 called "The Young Clerk's assistant" features two dedications : one to the young clerks of Great Britain and another to the young ladies of great Britain. The young clerks dedication states that the young men would be using their handwriting in a professional administrative capacity, whereas the young ladies dedication portrays their handwriting as a personal ornament and for writing love letters with :

Quote from: The dedication to the young clerks of Great Britain
Ye British Youth our ages hope & care ;
You, whome the Next may polish or impair,
Learn by the Pen those Talents to insure,
That fix ev'n Fortune & from Want Secure,
You, with a Dash, in time may drain a Mine,
And deal the Fate of Empires in a Line.
For Ease & wealth, For Honour and Delight.
Your Hand's Your Warrant, if you well can write.
Vive La Plume

Quote from: To the Young Ladies of Great Britain
Ye springing Fair whome gentle minds incline
To all that's curious innocent and fine!
With admiration in your Works are read
The various textures of the twining thread :
Then let the fingers whose unrivalled skill
Exalt the Needle, grace the Noble Quill.
An artless Scrawl the blushing Scribblers Shames
All should be fair that beauteous Woman frames
Strive to excel, with ease the pen will move
And pretty lines add charms to Infant Love

These different dedications reflect the fact that society in the 18th and 19th centuries in Britain and America was patriarchal : men usually had and were expected to have power over women (e.g coverture laws) and so men and women would (in theory at least) be doing completely different things with their handwriting. So, in order to help show this difference between men and women you would have them write different styles.

However, I believe that in the later 19th century more and more women started entering the workforcegoing  into positions which were hitherto unavailable to them (esp. because their labour was cheaper than mens : Gillott mostly employed women and children to manufacture their pens) and since women might now be doing professional administrative work requiring handwriting there was no longer a need or desire for them to write a different style.
Title: Re: question about Spencerian Script
Post by: Brad franklin on July 07, 2014, 08:44:26 PM
Interesting read.