Author Topic: Vintage Supplies TRUE Value  (Read 11335 times)

Offline YokePenCo

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Vintage Supplies TRUE Value
« on: March 24, 2015, 11:25:24 AM »
I have noticed, especially over the past year prices SOARING for vintage supplies. I am specifically referring to nibs and pen holders (the areas I know) and wanted to share a few thoughts. These are my OPINIONS and of course opinions will vary

Nibs
No nib in the world is worth over $5, PERIOD in my opinion. Vintage nibs were made in such a way that every single nib was touched by a human, they were precision ground and each one scrutinized. This is why they are wonderful to use, and why they are so desirable. We have to remember this is a disposable product with a VERY limited life.

I am going to use the Gillott 604EF as an example, because it is my nib of preference and because I have purchased so many of them. About a year ago, there was a website that these nibs for sale, they had quite a few. The price was $3.50 per nib, which I consider a very fair price for this vintage nib. When I decided this was the nib I prefer, I bought them all, I think it was about 100 or so. This was the only source of these nibs to my knowledge. Within weeks the price on these nibs went up almost 1000%, yes that is one thousand percent. Someone listed them on eBay at $30 each and now there has been a couple people doing the same thing thing. First off, that is INSANE, that price is driven by greed, plain and simple. It keeps these nibs out of the hands of those who use them most. I can almost guarantee that they only sell one at a time, and only to people who want a chance to use the nib, just once.

We read that "So-and-So" Master penman from the 1900's preferred a specific nib and think that nib will help us be able to obtain the quality of writing they achieved. While the nib may make the hairlines a tiny bit finer than what a modern nib does or flex a tiny bit more, the writing they achieved was NOT due to a nib. It was due to PRACTICE and more PRACTICE. If someone like Madarasz were alive today, I can guarantee they could achieve the same results with a high quality modern nib, or even a nice vintage nib.

Pen Holders

Recently an 8" Magnusson Pen Holder sold on eBay for $2500, yes you read that correctly Two-Thousand-Five Hundred Dollars! First off let me say there is no functional or historical value of a Magnusson that makes it remotely worth $2500. Someone at some point put some crazy value on a Magnusson, creating a false belief that it is the holy grail of pen holders. The fact is, I own several and in comparison with the other vintage holders in my collection they are of much lower quality than others. Magnusson, while historically cool due to the popularity during the golden age of penmanship, were not well thought out as far as construction. The Zanerian Fine Art Oblique Holder, a very similar pen to a Magnusson, is constructed 100x better and sell at around $100-$150 when they do come up.

First off, there is no magic in a pen holder. Its a matter of simple grade-school geometry and provided the pens geometry is correct and the pen is constructed well so that it will stay together and comfortable to use a $15.00 pen works just as well as a $2500.00 pen. There is no difference in the functional use!!! Many of you know I make many pen holders, and 98% of what I do is PURELY cosmetic. My $35.00 "Naked Pen Holders" perform EXACTLY the same as my $300.00 Kelchner Replica with Ivory. The difference is purely the time to assemble the pen and the cost of the materials themselves.

At no point ever think you NEED a vintage nib or pen holder. You can achieve wonderful results with a $15.00 pen holder and a nice modern nib. If you are lucky enough to find a vintage pen holder or nibs at a FAIR price, then by all means treat yourself if you are able.

If we as a community stopped paying these highly over inflated prices, even to sample one vintage nib, the sellers would have no choice but to lower the price or just sit on their inventory.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 06:05:09 PM by YokePenCo »
Christopher J. Yoke
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Offline YokePenCo

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Re: Vintage Supplies TRUE Value
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2015, 11:26:20 AM »
Finding Vintage Supplies at a REASONABLE cost

Below are where and how I find my vintage supplies. I have in two years collected a huge amount of supplies through these methods. Included are almost 100 vintage pen holders, 8 gross of Gillott 604EF Nibs & many other gross of vintage nibs which are in huge demand. I now have enough to last my lifetime and dedicate less time to this than I originally did for nibs. My pen holder collection...that's another story, lol.

eBay - The obvious, however to make it work you need to know how to use search to your advantage. Lets use "Gillott 604EF" for an example. Do a search for that term, then refine it by eliminating irrelevant categories and also sorting by "Newest First". You need to then save that search. You can also choose to be notified by email when new items are posted, this can get spammy, so use with caution. What I do is every morning my routine is get coffee, check eBay and then check email. It's a daily routine. I open eBay and use my saved searches to quickly go through what I am searching out. If you see a newly listed item at an auction format you want, message the seller. Tell them you are interested in a Buy It Now price. Sometimes they will agree and put it at a buy it now price for you and you can grab it up. Otherwise it's very hit or miss, I set a max I will pay for something, and if it's above that price I move on regardless. For example, any 604EF above $5.00 I don't even consider and completely ignore.

Local Antique Stores - Most people try to go to them and see if they have anything. This doesn't work 99% of the time and you spend more money in time and gas than it is worth. I contact every store in my area and explain what I am looking for. I currently have about 30 antique stores that are in contact with me. In this example I will use nibs. I tell them I practice penmanship and always looking for old nibs. I ask them that if they have anything come in, could they please contact me. The one thing you will want to do is build a relationship, so I started by buying any nib at a reasonable price. Some were nibs I don't even like, but once they realize you are serious, they will continue to contact you when the items come in. I also sent each one a hand lettered mail showing them that I am a true user and not someone looking to buy items to turn for profit. It's a nice gesture and gets them interested in working with you. (Dealing with all the extra nibs I acquired this way will be in a section below regarding trading)

Estate Sales - Look around your local area, an estate sale is a HUGE undertaking and usually handled by Estate Sale Companies, contact these companies using the same methods as the Antique Stores. I have about 15 companies that contact me, again when something shows up. They are more than happy to work with you as these little items are usually tossed in a box of misc items that goes for pennies on the dollar. Again buying extra to build a relationship.

Trades - When you see or offered nibs at a really low cost, especially those that we know are more desirable, buy them regardless if you personally like them or not. There are so many different varieties of nibs that you most likely know someone who prefers another nib over yours. Pay attention and you will learn what nib others prefer and if you find their nib, contact them letting you know you have some and see if they have some of your nibs they would love to trade. This is how you get rid of extra nibs you may accumulate from Antique Stores or Estate Sale Companies.

BE FAIR / BE HONEST - This is most important, the ability of everyone to research value makes this so very important. Using 604EF's as an example again. They contact me saying they had a gross of 604EF's come in. I explain that I would be willing to pay about $3.00 per nib in bulk. I also voluntarily explain that if you look on eBay, you can see there are two people selling them for $30 each. I explain that this is an absurd price that people only will pay one nib at a time. I also offer to show them how to search completed items in eBay so they can see if items actually sold at that price and how many sold at the asking price of the crazy eBay sellers.

Dumb Luck - The last way, just happening upon items. If I'm out of town and pass a store or garage sale I stop. I don't go out of my way to search them out, this could be exhausting because you come up empty handed so often. If you see something that looks like it has a bunch of misc old items, take the 2 minutes to stop and quickly browse. I purchased 2 boxes of dream nibs and a few pen holders this way. I always offer to send them a letter using the items if they are comfortable with giving me their address.

Quantity - This is a huge thing. I hear of so many calligraphers who buy 5 nibs at a time of their favorites. This is plain silly and you have to get yourself past this if looking to collect vintage nibs and prepared to spend. If you buy in quantity, the price can be as much as 40% cheaper for nibs. A single Leonardt Principal costs $2.50 in singles, if you purchase by the gross (144) the price drops to $1.75, which is 30% cheaper. That equals $360.00 by paying individually for nibs vs. $252.00 buying in bulk, you SAVE $108.00 buying in bulk. You are now saving HUGE amounts of money, stocked up for a long time and then have the ability to trade or sell and easily break even or even make a profit by selling at NORMAL retail price. If you can't afford it alone, build a relationship with a friend and or friends and split the expenses and supplies. You just have to be prepared to buy in quantity for the above methods to work.

Summary - Overall if you do all the above things, you will be surprised after a while how often people contact you. I currently get at least 3 calls per week about these types of items, some good, some not. Be patient and you can get much more than you would ever expect. Like I said in two years time I now have enough nibs to last the rest of my life and enough pen holders to last many peoples lives. If everyone were to do the above, we would all have huge supplies of vintages nibs, could trade back and forth for nibs we each have a personal preference and more importantly set a REALISTIC price for vintage supplies and put the price gougers in their place!

Good Luck! and be Patient!
« Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 05:44:09 PM by YokePenCo »
Christopher J. Yoke
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Offline Heebs

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Re: Vintage Supplies TRUE Value
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2015, 03:23:22 PM »
You beat me to it, I was thinking about making something like this last night. I'll contribute what I can from my experiences.

Offline NikkiB

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Re: Vintage Supplies TRUE Value
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2015, 05:50:05 PM »
Really useful post, thank you so much!
Nikki x

Offline AnasaziWrites

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Re: Vintage Supplies TRUE Value
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2015, 06:33:29 PM »
If we as a community stopped paying these highly over inflated prices, even to sample one vintage nib, the sellers would have no choice but to lower the price or just sit on their inventory.
Couldn't agree more.

Offline Judy G

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Re: Vintage Supplies TRUE Value
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2015, 07:26:08 PM »
Thank you, Chris! I've learned so much from your post :)
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Offline Erica McPhee

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Re: Vintage Supplies TRUE Value
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2015, 08:47:55 PM »
I have in two years collected a huge amount of supplies through these methods. Included are almost 100 vintage pen holders, 8 gross of Gillott 604EF Nibs & many other gross of vintage nibs which are in huge demand. I now have enough to last my lifetime and dedicate less time to this than I originally did for nibs ... Like I said in two years time I now have enough nibs to last the rest of my life and enough pen holders to last many peoples lives.

So this means you're going to stop buying now right? So others have a chance to purchase these at the right price?  ;)
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Offline Jamie

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Re: Vintage Supplies TRUE Value
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2015, 08:54:34 PM »
I wanted to comment that I've started making a habit of buying the collections of nibs off of Ebay where the people selling don't really know what they have and sometimes don't even list the names of the nibs, and I can get it for less than $.50 per nib. Then I get to play with all kinds of nibs, which is a lot of fun. I really like getting to play with new things, even if I only like less than 1/4 of the things I try, for some reason. And sometimes I get prizes like the dozen gillott 303s I got in the last batch.

And because I know if I don't like a nib I won't use it, I've started separating them out and re-selling them 'individually' on Etsy. (As in you could buy just one, but you can buy as many as I have as well.) I don't ever charge more than $2 for a nib though since I never pay that much for it either, and just gauge how much by a quick internet search, which for the non-mainstream names generally doesn't get me much if any information. I've also got an excel sheet of all the ones I have up in the trading post so they're open for trading with others here who might want to. :)

Offline Patricia C

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Re: Vintage Supplies TRUE Value
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2015, 10:05:46 PM »
Thank you for the very informative post, Chris! Such an eye opener  :)
« Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 10:16:53 PM by Patricia C »
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Offline YokePenCo

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Re: Vintage Supplies TRUE Value
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2015, 10:47:49 PM »
I have in two years collected a huge amount of supplies through these methods. Included are almost 100 vintage pen holders, 8 gross of Gillott 604EF Nibs & many other gross of vintage nibs which are in huge demand. I now have enough to last my lifetime and dedicate less time to this than I originally did for nibs ... Like I said in two years time I now have enough nibs to last the rest of my life and enough pen holders to last many peoples lives.

So this means you're going to stop buying now right? So others have a chance to purchase these at the right price?  ;)

I rarely buy nibs anymore honestly, unless it's a truly sought after nib. But pen holders.....lord I have issues, lol. Plus I'm only working within the state for the most part, so 49 other US states are untouched. ;)
Christopher J. Yoke
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Offline Roseann

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Re: Vintage Supplies TRUE Value
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2015, 12:43:04 AM »
Christopher, thank you!
Such a helpful post.
Roseann

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Offline tintenfuchs

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Re: Vintage Supplies TRUE Value
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2015, 01:53:27 AM »
While I personally find it crazy to spend that much money on nibs, I still want to say one thing about the "worth":
Something is worth exactly as much as the person who wants it is willing to pay.
Example: A Picasso painting. Add up the working hours of Picasso and the paints and you're nowhere near what it's being brokered as. ;) It's the reputation, historical significance and the fame that raise the price.

I agree with you, noone NEEDS vintage nibs or penholders and they surely won't make you a master penman. But if someone really wants something, they're willing to spend money on it, and that doesn't have anything to do with the actual value of the thing itself. And you can't change that. You can't tell everyone to stop buying nibs so the prices will go down again.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 02:43:57 AM by sisterofdream »
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Offline AndyT

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Re: Vintage Supplies TRUE Value
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2015, 05:33:47 AM »
I'm inclined to agree with Natascha: it's market forces in action, and if a seller can charge a lot of money for an item when supply is low and demand is high, in most cases they will.

I've pursued some of the avenues Mr Yoke describes above and met with a reasonable amount of success, but it does take a bit of time and effort.  No doubt the sellers of expensive vintage nibs would say that a large component of their prices reflects exactly that.  There is a middle way, in Europe at least, which is to support the calligraphy businesses who still supply vintage nibs at affordable prices.  Long may they prosper.

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Offline YokePenCo

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Re: Vintage Supplies TRUE Value
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2015, 08:56:59 AM »
While I personally find it crazy to spend that much money on nibs, I still want to say one thing about the "worth":
Something is worth exactly as much as the person who wants it is willing to pay.
Example: A Picasso painting. Add up the working hours of Picasso and the paints and you're nowhere near what it's being brokered as. ;) It's the reputation, historical significance and the fame that raise the price.

I agree with you, noone NEEDS vintage nibs or penholders and they surely won't make you a master penman. But if someone really wants something, they're willing to spend money on it, and that doesn't have anything to do with the actual value of the thing itself. And you can't change that. You can't tell everyone to stop buying nibs so the prices will go down again.

I agree, things are worth what people are willing to pay and that is the law of supply and demand. I can't see though the similarity between a Picasso and a nib. A Picasso you can enjoy for years and pass down to your family who can in turn enjoy it. A nib is a disposable item. You get a couple of hours use out of it and then it's useless and thrown away. I equate a nib to a Bic Disposable Pen, even an old or rare Bic Pen as a usable item has a very limited value. It may have a slightly more worth due to rarity but it still is a disposable item.

In regards to saying to stop buying, I know that will never happen realistically, someone, somewhere will always have deep pockets and willing to spend extra. The two points I am trying to get across is A) That $30 nib will not make you a better penman. B) Every time you pay a high price for, say a nib, you are helping to reinforce that ridiculous value.

Looking at it closer, "John Doe" has an eBay store where he is selling nibs at $30 each. On an average month he currently sell 40 nibs. Resulting in a gross income of $1200. If a majority of the people were to stop paying this price, the next month "John Doe" may sell 5 nibs resulting in a gross income of $150. This could possibly result in him lowering the price in order to get that $1200 gross income back. Chances are is that by selling at $30 per nib he is price gouging and driven my monetary gain. By not buying them we are reducing the demand and therefore have a very good chance of reducing the price. Very simple economics, achieved by working as a group, since our group is very niche and relatively small.

Lastly we are in what we call is called an Economic Cycle, whereas there is a LARGE growing interest in penmanship and calligraphy. Which is wonderful. Many people now involved are relatively new to the art and hear of the term "dream nibs" and actively search these out. The prices are inflated due to the "easy to find" sources of these nibs have been exhausted, resulting in a larger demand with a lower supply. The supply is still out there, you just have to take a different approach to finding it.
Christopher J. Yoke
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Offline YokePenCo

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Re: Vintage Supplies TRUE Value
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2015, 09:12:03 AM »
I'm inclined to agree with Natascha: it's market forces in action, and if a seller can charge a lot of money for an item when supply is low and demand is high, in most cases they will.

I've pursued some of the avenues Mr Yoke describes above and met with a reasonable amount of success, but it does take a bit of time and effort.  No doubt the sellers of expensive vintage nibs would say that a large component of their prices reflects exactly that.  There is a middle way, in Europe at least, which is to support the calligraphy businesses who still supply vintage nibs at affordable prices.  Long may they prosper.


I so wish there were more calligraphy supply stores in the US. The "mom and pop" store is slowly a dying breed in all avenues. That is why I chose to help Simon at Scribbler's by providing another option of oblique pen holders. I have turned down many, many chances to make large amounts of pen holders for larger businesses for large profit. When Simon contacted me and explained the history and operations of Scribblers, I couldn't resist to help him out. Support the very few "little guys" whenever you can, their prices are almost always fair and you are supporting a family, not a corporation.
Christopher J. Yoke
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