Author Topic: Whole Arm Movement  (Read 11895 times)

Offline Akawaii

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Whole Arm Movement
« on: February 12, 2016, 07:57:24 PM »
Hello! Is it really true that you need to use your whole arm? I really do not know if I am using my arm properly (that's something I never thought I would say). Please help, any advice is appreciated!

Offline Entropy

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Re: Whole Arm Movement
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2016, 11:24:17 PM »
I'm not an expert but we should probably clarify with what I know so we have a point of reference- I was definitely a finger writer for years and years before my accident (and before calligraphy). I became an arm writer largely out of necessity (my injury was a pretty severely crushed right hand complete with multiple broken fingers and torn tendons). That said, if you're doing manuscript styles with broad edge it's typically accepted that most of the practitioners out there are finger writers- however, I was able to produce fairly decent, or at least I think so, foundational and italic with arm movements.

I eventually moved into pointed pen where I am now and, over the last half year or so, practicing very regularly, I've come to really love pointed pen scripts (in my case mostly Spencerian and Copperplate) in a way that I'm not quite sure I ever did with broad edges. Muscular movement, as I understand it (from reading multiple books and watching lots of videos) is based on a movement that starts with the pectorals and shoulders and sort of ripples down into the forearm with the fleshy part of the forearm acting as the primary pivot point. There are, of course, lots of little tricks and quirks that individual practitioners have come up with on their own (I've seen really interesting pivots on knuckles and pen twists among other things) but the theory is very much the same- that your motion is generated further up on the arm and shoulder and therefore it saves your fingers and hand from fatiguing.

If you want some of my sources or just to talk shop about the theory of how it works feel free to PM me as this is a topic I've become very invested into for my calligraphy pursuits. Like I said, I'm not an expert by any stretch, but I think I'd at least be able to point you in a direction.

Offline AndyT

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Re: Whole Arm Movement
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2016, 05:45:11 AM »
Whole arm movement is highly desirable, especially for Ornamental Penmanship capitals, but it's the muscular movement Entropy describes with the forearm resting on the desk which is fundamental to writing American styles.  Ideally you'll have a writing surface at just the right height which will enable you to lean forward a touch, lifting your forearm off the table and allowing you to switch between the two at will.  It's a lovely idea ...  ::)

Some movement of the fingers is more or less unavoidable, and skilled Spencerian practitioners will often use it to extend the range of the muscular movement: stretching into ascender loops for example.  If you'd like to read a down-to-earth discussion of this subject, I can recommend this book.

Offline JanisTX

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Re: Whole Arm Movement
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2016, 09:17:12 AM »
I am working my way through Bill Hildebrandt's "Calligraphic Flourishing: A New Approach to an Ancient Art".  He has a very good description of how to do whole arm movements.  He talks a lot about the "shoulder girdle" being used to make the movements of the pen.  My shoulder gets sore after a bit, so I suspect that I am doing it wrong!  However, my flourishing is improving, so I'm going to hang in there.

One of my chief complaints with calligraphy books/guides is that they are bound so that they cannot open flat.  I am really thinking about taking this book to a Fed Ex Office store to see if they can take it apart & install a spiral binding, so that I can open it flat.  Why don't publishers print all calligraphy books so that they can open flat??

Janis

Offline Akawaii

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Re: Whole Arm Movement
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2016, 09:34:59 AM »
I'm not an expert but we should probably clarify with what I know so we have a point of reference- I was definitely a finger writer for years and years before my accident (and before calligraphy). I became an arm writer largely out of necessity (my injury was a pretty severely crushed right hand complete with multiple broken fingers and torn tendons). That said, if you're doing manuscript styles with broad edge it's typically accepted that most of the practitioners out there are finger writers- however, I was able to produce fairly decent, or at least I think so, foundational and italic with arm movements.

I eventually moved into pointed pen where I am now and, over the last half year or so, practicing very regularly, I've come to really love pointed pen scripts (in my case mostly Spencerian and Copperplate) in a way that I'm not quite sure I ever did with broad edges. Muscular movement, as I understand it (from reading multiple books and watching lots of videos) is based on a movement that starts with the pectorals and shoulders and sort of ripples down into the forearm with the fleshy part of the forearm acting as the primary pivot point. There are, of course, lots of little tricks and quirks that individual practitioners have come up with on their own (I've seen really interesting pivots on knuckles and pen twists among other things) but the theory is very much the same- that your motion is generated further up on the arm and shoulder and therefore it saves your fingers and hand from fatiguing.

If you want some of my sources or just to talk shop about the theory of how it works feel free to PM me as this is a topic I've become very invested into for my calligraphy pursuits. Like I said, I'm not an expert by any stretch, but I think I'd at least be able to point you in a direction.

Thank you so much Entropy, Andy, and Janis for all of your help! If you are using whole arm movement, would your forearm and shoulder feel exhausted, rather than your fingers? Additionally, would you need a large work space to practice this arm movement? Many thanks to all, and I am so happy you guys have included sources. See you!

Offline NikkiB

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Re: Whole Arm Movement
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2016, 10:40:19 AM »
Thanks for opening this discussion Akawaii, I wonder have you been watching any scribes on periscope?

I only ask because I have been, and in the last 24 hours have watched 2 conflicting scopes on the subject of arm and finger movement which have made my brow furrow in confusion!

Specifically, 1 scoper said you MUST use whole arm movement because, amongst other things, fingers, wrists and elbows can only draw a straight line for a limited time before curving, which was a bit of a lightbulb moment for me actually

Then another said finger movements are essential as shapes such as the compound curve (I hope I got the terminology right here) are impossible to execute without them...this also makes total sense!

Soooo, I'm not really sure what this brings to the discussion other than, I join you in your confusion,  ;D

But the responses here are very helpful, thank you.
Nikki x

Offline JanisTX

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Re: Whole Arm Movement
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2016, 11:42:38 AM »
I think that my shoulder gets sore because I am more or less hiking up the shoulder to make sure that I am lettering using the whole arm, not with just my fingers & wrist!  I can see a dramatic difference in my lettering, but I'm a bit wobbly since I'm so new to this form of lettering!  I hope I can get this down!!

Offline Akawaii

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Re: Whole Arm Movement
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2016, 12:19:02 PM »
Thanks for opening this discussion Akawaii, I wonder have you been watching any scribes on periscope?

I only ask because I have been, and in the last 24 hours have watched 2 conflicting scopes on the subject of arm and finger movement which have made my brow furrow in confusion!

Specifically, 1 scoper said you MUST use whole arm movement because, amongst other things, fingers, wrists and elbows can only draw a straight line for a limited time before curving, which was a bit of a lightbulb moment for me actually

Then another said finger movements are essential as shapes such as the compound curve (I hope I got the terminology right here) are impossible to execute without them...this also makes total sense!

Soooo, I'm not really sure what this brings to the discussion other than, I join you in your confusion,  ;D

But the responses here are very helpful, thank you.

Exactly! I am very confused!

Offline Akawaii

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Re: Whole Arm Movement
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2016, 12:21:12 PM »
I think that my shoulder gets sore because I am more or less hiking up the shoulder to make sure that I am lettering using the whole arm, not with just my fingers & wrist!  I can see a dramatic difference in my lettering, but I'm a bit wobbly since I'm so new to this form of lettering!  I hope I can get this down!!

Indeed! When I try to make letters, without the finger movements, the letters are wobbly. I am absolutely amazed by how some people can write so flawlessly, and swiftly, while I am so slow. Practice makes perfect I guess. By the way, what is Periscope?

Offline NikkiB

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Re: Whole Arm Movement
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2016, 01:07:47 PM »
Periscope is an app, users post videos live, in real time and can interact with their viewers by reading their posts during the broadcast.  Each broadcast is only available to view for a set period (set by the broadcaster) up to a maximum (I believe) of 24 hours.

There are a number of calligraphers using scope including Paul Antonio, Mas Grimes, Bianca Mascorro, Joi Hunt. 

It's kind of fun, much more intimate than you tube, I've only been using it for a few days & I like it more than I expected to.

With regard to writing swiftly, I have found that most calligraphers advise that slow and steady wins the race!  ;)
Nikki x

Offline AndyT

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Re: Whole Arm Movement
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2016, 03:28:52 PM »
If you are using whole arm movement, would your forearm and shoulder feel exhausted, rather than your fingers? Additionally, would you need a large work space to practice this arm movement?

The idea is that you are using big muscles to make small movements, so you won't tire.  At first it's going to feel a little weird, but in the end it's perfectly true.  One thing which really can make you ache is holding on to your pen too tightly - there's a current thread on that subject which contains some advice.

A large work space?  Well, a tidy one is the main thing.  Mine is typically surrounded with all manner of detritus, but there's a clear spot in the middle and I can just zone the rest out.  ;)  (I also have a large, steeply tilted drawing board which is outstanding for stopping stuff accumulating, but that's another story)!  If you take a sheet of the largest paper you intend to use, grab a pen and rest your arm on the desk with your elbow just off the edge and make as if you're writing the last line on the page, that's how much room you need - but add on a bit for luck.  If your desk is narrow front to back you can always sit side on, which was standard practice in schoolrooms where space was at a premium, as shown in the first illustration below.  The other one is just for fun, but it does show that a small desk isn't a deal breaker.

Offline KathySaunders

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Re: Whole Arm Movement
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2016, 04:44:13 PM »
Whole arm movement is very important.  You can certainly do Ornamental, Spencerian and flourishing without it, but it will be "drawn" rather than written freely.  Eventually, you will reach a point where there will be no more improvement in your writing.  Better to learn properly, right from the start. 

There's quite a bit of information out there about whole arm movement for ornamental styles, but here is a link to a book by C.P. Zaner, that is all about it, reasons to use it, how to do it, etc., etc. 
https://archive.org/details/armmovementmetho00zane

You can see a short video of Del Tysdal demonstrating arm movement penmanship on the IAMPETH website here:
http://www.iampeth.com/video/ornamental-penmanship-demonstration

Unfortunately it's not the best video, but you can see how fast he is writing, and that his fingers never move. 

Flourishing, when done properly, is done incredibly fast!  Like......you can't even believe it's happening that fast and that accurately without any pre-penciled guidelines at all!  I had the opportunity to see a few old masters do it and their fingers never really moved.  They spun the paper around and around as they worked, without even thinking about it, and every line was perfectly placed.  It was mind boggling!  It's possible that I have an old video tape of Del Tysdal flourishing that fast, but if I do, it's on VHS and I haven't transferred any of my videos to digital formal yet.  I need to do that, but I have a real fear of sending them away.  :-/

I hope that helps!

Kathy

Offline AndyT

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Re: Whole Arm Movement
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2016, 05:36:59 PM »
Interesting that you link to the Zaner business writing book, Kathy, because that's exclusively concerned with muscular movement, as opposed to whole arm.  At least as I understand it.  Unfortunately a lot of confusion sets in with the terminology in this subject.  True whole arm writing from the shoulder is definitely fast, as you say, but it only really applies to OP capitals and to flourishing.

Offline KathySaunders

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Re: Whole Arm Movement
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2016, 05:49:27 PM »
Interesting that you link to the Zaner business writing book, Kathy, because that's exclusively concerned with muscular movement, as opposed to whole arm.  At least as I understand it.  Unfortunately a lot of confusion sets in with the terminology in this subject.  True whole arm writing from the shoulder is definitely fast, as you say, but it only really applies to OP capitals and to flourishing.

Yes, I guess that *is* confusing....whole arm movement vs arm movement. 
When I said "There's quite a bit of information out there about whole arm movement for ornamental styles, but here is a link to a book by C.P. Zaner that is all about it," I should have said muscular movement instead of "it".  I'm afraid I just added to the confusion! 

I agree with you totally....whole arm movement from the shoulder is necessary to properly execute ornamental styles and flourishing. 

Sorry about that!
Kathy

Offline Akawaii

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Re: Whole Arm Movement
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2016, 09:12:44 AM »
Whole arm movement is very important.  You can certainly do Ornamental, Spencerian and flourishing without it, but it will be "drawn" rather than written freely.  Eventually, you will reach a point where there will be no more improvement in your writing.  Better to learn properly, right from the start. 

There's quite a bit of information out there about whole arm movement for ornamental styles, but here is a link to a book by C.P. Zaner, that is all about it, reasons to use it, how to do it, etc., etc. 
https://archive.org/details/armmovementmetho00zane

You can see a short video of Del Tysdal demonstrating arm movement penmanship on the IAMPETH website here:
http://www.iampeth.com/video/ornamental-penmanship-demonstration

Unfortunately it's not the best video, but you can see how fast he is writing, and that his fingers never move. 

Flourishing, when done properly, is done incredibly fast!  Like......you can't even believe it's happening that fast and that accurately without any pre-penciled guidelines at all!  I had the opportunity to see a few old masters do it and their fingers never really moved.  They spun the paper around and around as they worked, without even thinking about it, and every line was perfectly placed.  It was mind boggling!  It's possible that I have an old video tape of Del Tysdal flourishing that fast, but if I do, it's on VHS and I haven't transferred any of my videos to digital formal yet.  I need to do that, but I have a real fear of sending them away.  :-/

I hope that helps!

Kathy

OH MY. THE LINK YOU SENT OF THE VIDEO  :o It just makes me want to keep on practicing, which I am. All of your additional responses have really helped me a lot. Thank you to all of you so much! And Happy Valentine's Day!