Author Topic: first attempt  (Read 5763 times)

Offline flomade

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Re: first attempt
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2016, 12:50:17 PM »
So much helpful advice!! Thank you all for that! InkyFingers, I've been doing both cross drills and circle/oval drills. I enjoy them quite a bit, knowing that they are helping my grip and control as well as being relaxing and meditative.

Amy, I do love my dip pen. Its a little hard to put it aside, but I have. I don't love how pencil feels. My mechanical pencil's lead is either sharp and catches, or dull. I have a number 2 triconderoga that is better, but still gets dull quickly.

I'm still working on my grip (photo attached). Andy, you've talked about this with me a little in the past. I want to use my comfortable old grip, but I'm pursuing it because of my habit of gripping the pen far too tightly, which gave me a massive and painful writers bump (also attached). That's nearly gone, thankfully!


Offline tiffany.c.a

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Re: first attempt
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2016, 07:46:04 PM »
I have tried the grip you pictured above and find that it helped me lighten my grip. I don't use it exactly/exclusively, but it has been very helpful in breaking out of the death grip.

Offline AndyT

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Re: first attempt
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2016, 06:05:33 AM »
I'm glad to hear that the bump has subsided, so obviously what you are doing is helping, Flo.  I'm sure Ken would approve of the extended fingers, but he'd probably say that you should raise the angle so that the rear of the pen comes to rest next to the knuckle of your index finger.  I think that's good advice, personally, but as usual it's a matter of whatever works best for you.  If you ever get into Ornamental Penmanship a lower nib to paper angle is desirable, but it's usually achieved by adjusting the pen rather than the grip.

Offline himasf

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Re: first attempt
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2016, 02:07:24 AM »
I've been practicing for 2 years this month and I agree with the advice to practice lowercase monoline in the beginning. One less thing to worry about while you're perfecting the forms. As for those whole arm movement oval drills I don't think they help with lowercase, like, at all. That time is better spent carefully studying exemplars. Just my opinion. *ducks*

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: first attempt
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2016, 07:16:01 AM »
I've been practicing for 2 years this month and I agree with the advice to practice lowercase monoline in the beginning. One less thing to worry about while you're perfecting the forms. As for those whole arm movement oval drills I don't think they help with lowercase, like, at all. That time is better spent carefully studying exemplars. Just my opinion. *ducks*

thanks for adding to this thread. as i frequently mention, people have to try everything before they find what works and what doesn't work. you never know which suggestion will be the one that makes everything click. if drills haven't been working - set them aside for a while. maybe work on your precision, and then come back to drills. even after 20+ years, i still enjoy going back to basics from time to time to refresh my memory.

Offline flomade

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Re: first attempt
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2016, 10:32:37 AM »
Thank you for the advice on drills. I can see that they would be most beneficial with capitals. I've just been working on lowercase letters in groups, and quite enjoying the process!

Offline flomade

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Re: first attempt
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2016, 09:38:17 AM »
Here is today. I've been learning letter forms with pencil, and tried my dip pen for the first time yesterday! I'm pretty excited, and think I've lost most of my engrosser's habits? This is shaky, and there are consistency issues for sure. I've gone back to using my usual old pen grip, while trying to lighten it up considerably. I'm just learning about shading as of yesterday afternoon, and as a rule follower by nature, I am adjusting to the idea that in some cases it's up to me.
I'm sure there is so much I'm missing, as I've realized I'm not very good at critiquing objectively.

Offline AndyT

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Re: first attempt
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2016, 10:42:42 AM »
It's going well, Flo.  :)

A few structural points: some of your "d"s and "t"s seem tall.  It's customary to make a clear distinction between the height of those and that of looped ascenders - 2x the x-height for the former and 3x for the latter, for instance.  Similarly, the tail of "p" is normally rendered rather short: in my case the lead in rises to 2x the x-height, and the tail descends to 1½ spaces below the base line.  This sounds odd, I know.  The same goes for "q".  Finally, the lower loop of "f" is straight on the left hand side ... sort of.  The shade makes it appear to kick slightly to the left - at any rate it shouldn't curl under to the right.

It's also the norm to restrict yourself to one shade per letter (with the possible exception of "q"), and whilst it's not unheard of to use two in a "g" it's perhaps better to save that for special occasions, such as the first letter of the first word in a line.  Spencerian shades in general are never straight and parallel-sided: they are either wedges or pressure-and-release strokes, so if you are going to shade a "b", say, your options are either to add a tiny shade at the bottom of the downstroke between the waist and baselines, or else make the dot a little more noticeable than usual.

That's plenty to be going on with, I think!  These are all fine points, pretty much all of which had to be pointed out to me, so I hope you'll take these observations in the spirit in which they're intended.  :)

Offline flomade

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Re: first attempt
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2016, 11:01:21 AM »
Thank you so much for your observations, Andy! I should be using guidelines, which would help me get those structural elements down. Some of the shading here is unintentional  ::) All of the descenders for instance! I can't seem to go light with the dip pen..yet! I'm not quite getting what you're saying about the 'f'? Can you clarify for me? Is it the the shade extends the entire length of the descending loop and should be a pressure and release?

So much excellent help, thank you!!

Offline AndyT

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Re: first attempt
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2016, 03:59:00 PM »
Crikey - was that the only bit which was unintelligible?  You must be very good at deciphering gobbledegook.  :)

Let's have a rummage around for a nice "f" then.  The one attached is from P Z Bloser's Ornamental Penmanship book, which is a good first port of call for this sort of thing because the construction of the letters is broken down into stages.  I've made an attempt to tweak the contrast a little for the sake of clarity since the pdf file doesn't bear much magnification, but it's still well worth your while to download it, here.

At this point please indulge me whilst I mount my hobby horse and state that Ornamental Penmanship is not Spencerian.  The latter is handwriting, and the former is showing off.  Those of us who make the distinction can probably shout it out until we're blue in the face as if we're suffering from some form of calligraphic Tourette's Syndrome without making any difference whatsoever, but it's true.  However, the same underlying principles apply to the lower case by and large, and if you want lucid instruction with a minimum of 19th century florid language, Bloser's book is as good as it gets.  The capitals are pure Ornamental, though.  If you find yourself doing those, you've just fallen down another rabbit hole.

Back to business.  The upper loop is the same as any other.  You continue down through the baseline applying some pressure, and if anything kicking very slightly to the left, before releasing the pressure, making a tight turn and entering the upstroke.  Where this meets the downstroke is your decision - if you're really strict you'll aim for midway between the base and waist lines, but there's something to be said for aiming for the baseline as illustrated.  Especially if the next letter is going to be an "e" (hint)!

Does that help at all?  I hope so.  I expect everybody struggles with making light downstrokes to start with, but some people may have forgotten about that.  One thing which will either help or drive you crazy is to use something soft under the paper, like felt for instance, or even thin upholstery foam.  The softer it is, the lighter your touch will have to be to avoid spearing the paper.  This makes heavy shades out of the question, but those shouldn't be a priority to start with.  I claim very little for my writing abilities, but one thing I will say is that I'm not heavy handed.  That's down to a combination of a soft surface, the ill-tempered Gillott 303, and a perverse willingness to attempt to write on wholly unsuitable paper.   ;)

Guidelines would certainly help with providing points to aim for, and slant lines are a boon when you're starting out, because the last thing you want to be worrying about is angles when there are all those forms to remember.  Eventually you'll probably find that the most convenient thing is to revert to simple lined paper - which is only right and proper since this is practical handwriting, after all - but having a framework to hang the letters on will certainly make life easier at this stage.

Offline flomade

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Re: first attempt
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2016, 05:16:37 PM »
There is so much to process here, and I'm really excited about that!

Your 'calligraphic tourette's' comment made me laugh. Calligraphers are nothing if not passionate! That's good to know, though, I'll look to Spencer for capitals. Loser's breakdown of the lowercase is so excellent. I'll be looking to those for guidance!

Onto the 'f'. I happily abandoned engrosser's script in order to leave behind 'strict'. I prefer the upstroke to touch the baseline, I like the shape it makes reaching for the next letter. It's very graceful. Not when I'm writing it, but, you know, in general.

I've wondered about the leather blotters people use and now I understand. I write on a pad of paper, but something softer would certainly help. I'll look into that this weekend.

I'll get back to guidelines as well. The one's I'd settled on are rather dark, and it makes it difficult to see if I'm doing things properly. But I can use them under good copy paper.

I can't say thank you enough for the time you've spent giving me excellent advice. Cheers!

ash0kgiri

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Re: first attempt
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2016, 08:14:27 AM »
Hey Flo,

Im absolutely in no position to comment on your drills, but at first look they look nice and composed.
I will leave experts to get into details. Till then keep drilling.

Ashok

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: first attempt
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2016, 09:28:02 AM »
My recommendation is always the same - for any style. Devote some time to developing a rhythm by practicing words or letter groups that do not have any ascenders of descenders. Once you get that group of 14 letters flowing smoothly with some precision, add the 6 letters with ascenders. Work on those two groups of letters until things are flowing smoothly and then add the 6 letters with descenders. This type of practice could be 30-50% (or more) of your total practice time and I have seen students improve dramatically when they take a break from trying to learn all 26 letters at the same time.

aceimnorsuvwxz
bdhklt
fgjpqy

Many traditional teachers will insist on students spending at least 20 minutes a day for at least a week on the first group before adding the second - and then third - group. Most students are eager to write text, so they jump ahead. IMHO those students who are more patient reap some rewards. I will confess to being one who jumped ahead - but I saved it for the last 3 minutes of my practice time.

With broad edge - my first teacher had us practicing basic strokes for a whole week before we moved on to letters. That was time well spent. Getting to know how the nib works is essential to making beautiful letters.

My other recommendation is to not extend the amount of practice with single letters. There is rarely a need for an experienced calligrapher to produce a page of the letter e - or any other letter. Practice in groups of letters since the joins are as important as the individual letters.

Offline KrzysiekS

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Re: first attempt
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2016, 11:35:10 AM »
On my commute, I've generated list of (american) english words consisting of aceimnorsuvwxz letters.
The list is auto-generated, it may accidentally contain an inappropriate word.

Offline NikkiB

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Re: first attempt
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2016, 12:01:52 PM »
Brilliant, thank you Krzysiek! 👍
Nikki x