Flourish Forum

Tutorials => Kind Critique => Topic started by: ash0kgiri on June 15, 2016, 02:07:13 PM

Title: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 15, 2016, 02:07:13 PM
Hello Everyone,

Its been couple of weeks that i have joined this amazing Forum and its pleasure to interact with like minded people.
And today after downloading Erica's drill sheet (thanks to @prasad for helping me find out) for me it was quite a productive day.
I just finished 7 worksheets of Drills and here it is for every one to comment and Criticise and help me understand areas of improvement.

Before i got hold of these amazing worksheets i used to write words, alphabets or poems for practise (which will be uploaded soon for your valuable comments) and today i realise how important it is to practise drills and improve muscle memory.

So don't forget to 'Right' what is 'Wrong'.

Thanks,
Ashok

Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 16, 2016, 06:58:02 AM
Hi

Here are few more drills and practise sheets.
Would appreciate if you could comment and give me your honest feedback and areas of improvisation.

As i said, please RIGHT if anything is wrong.

Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ericp on June 16, 2016, 01:29:32 PM
I love the flourishing in the practice sheet 3 (including the ink spots caused by the upstroke  ;) )
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 16, 2016, 01:47:21 PM
Thanks Eric for taking time to comment.
Let me know if i could improvise it in anyway.

Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: AndyT on June 16, 2016, 02:53:04 PM
I've probably visited this thread half a dozen times now, and each time backed away thinking I'm not competent to comment.  Which is true!

All the same, sheets 3 and 4 look particularly attractive to me: written with confidence and panache.  I see very little to critique in those.  As for sheets 1 and 2, your slant wanders a bit, but I'm guessing that you're well aware of that and have probably gone a long way towards curing it.  For my taste the writing is heavy for copperplate, but that's a judgment for you to make.  With a bit of luck some of the copperplate specialists will turn up and have something to say for themselves before long.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Elizabeth O. on June 16, 2016, 03:09:19 PM
Hi!

I'm loving what I'm seeing - great work so far!!  You've done a lot and practiced a lot and it shows.

Something to work on: I'm looking at the first drill sheet that you posted.  The fifth line has an upstroke-downstroke-upstroke drill.  When you do that drill, aim for keeping the shades and hairlines parallel and spaced evenly.  The shades and hairlines should also be on that same slant line.  In general, it looks like the over-turn is consistently wider than the under-turn - you want to try to get those to be as close to the same size as possible. 

That being said, your hairline and shade transition is really nice!  Especially on the last figure in that drill line.  Keep going!!  And, please keep us updated on your progress!  ;D
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on June 16, 2016, 03:25:14 PM
You have a nice Copperplate hand Ashok. You have a good eye for spacing.

Since you asked for critique, I will mention some things that caught my eye.

1. You have a tendency to reduce the slant. This is quite common, especially so when writing with a straight holder. All you need to fix this is rotate your paper counter-clockwise a bit. When you put your pen to paper, the direction of the slit in the nib should more or less line up with the slant lines. (BTW - you can also just draw your slant lines to be closer to the vertical if you like it that way. The important thing is to be consistent.)

2. The letters 'a', 'd', 'g', 'q' all start with an 'o' which is followed by the vertical stroke e.g. 'a' will be written by drawing an 'o' followed by drawing an 'i'. In the examples above, the right side of the 'o' is left open in these letters - this is most noticeable in the 'a'.

3. The letters 'u' and 'w' start with an 'i' stroke. There is no turning at the top of the first stroke like you have drawn in 'understands' in the last example above.

4. The letters 'y' and 'v' do have a turn at the top i.e. they start with a compound curve. See 'everything' and 'hungry' in the last example above - the 'v' and 'y' should have a turn at the top.

I cannot tell for sure but it appears to me that the slant lines are a bit too slanted. Please ensure that these are at least 55 degrees from the horizontal.

I hope this helps :-)

- Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 16, 2016, 04:13:57 PM
You have a nice Copperplate hand Ashok. You have a good eye for spacing.

Since you asked for critique, I will mention some things that caught my eye.

1. You have a tendency to reduce the slant. This is quite common, especially so when writing with a straight holder. All you need to fix this is rotate your paper counter-clockwise a bit. When you put your pen to paper, the direction of the slit in the nib should more or less line up with the slant lines. (BTW - you can also just draw your slant lines to be closer to the vertical if you like it that way. The important thing is to be consistent.)

2. The letters 'a', 'd', 'g', 'q' all start with an 'o' which is followed by the vertical stroke e.g. 'a' will be written by drawing an 'o' followed by drawing an 'i'. In the examples above, the right side of the 'o' is left open in these letters - this is most noticeable in the 'a'.

3. The letters 'u' and 'w' start with an 'i' stroke. There is no turning at the top of the first stroke like you have drawn in 'understands' in the last example above.

4. The letters 'y' and 'v' do have a turn at the top i.e. they start with a compound curve. See 'everything' and 'hungry' in the last example above - the 'v' and 'y' should have a turn at the top.

I cannot tell for sure but it appears to me that the slant lines are a bit too slanted. Please ensure that these are at least 55 degrees from the horizontal.

I hope this helps :-)

- Salman

Hi Salman,

Thats a very detailed and well explained mail. And thanks for the kind words. Much appreciate.
I will go back to the drill worksheets and make sure the points mentioned by you are looked into.
The last sheet that you see is done before i did any drill exercise ever before. And today i have done a long para after i have done the drills.
Have attached the sheet for you and everyone to comment and criticise.

I agree with you on the slant line. It looked too slanted once i started doing it, but continued as i was practicing.
Will make sure that the slant is 55 degree. I have ordered for an oblique pen from Paper & Ink and will reach me by end of this month.
India its very difficult to find these things. Also i would like to mention that the paper i use is very rough and on up stroke it gets stuck and i cant confidently make that stroke as it would tear the paper or splatter the ink. (or may be i should just try and do it)

Thanks again for taking your valuable time. And this mail will be definitely my ref point whenever im practising.

Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 16, 2016, 04:20:35 PM
Hi!

I'm loving what I'm seeing - great work so far!!  You've done a lot and practiced a lot and it shows.

Something to work on: I'm looking at the first drill sheet that you posted.  The fifth line has an upstroke-downstroke-upstroke drill.  When you do that drill, aim for keeping the shades and hairlines parallel and spaced evenly.  The shades and hairlines should also be on that same slant line.  In general, it looks like the over-turn is consistently wider than the under-turn - you want to try to get those to be as close to the same size as possible. 

That being said, your hairline and shade transition is really nice!  Especially on the last figure in that drill line.  Keep going!!  And, please keep us updated on your progress!  ;D

Hi Elizabeth,

Thanks for sparing your valuable time to comment on the drills.
Now that i look again i can see were i went wrong. Will again go back to the drill sheets keeping things in mind that you have suggested.

I just updated my todays practise sheet for you and everyone to comment and criticise. This was done after the drill exercise for me to understand if im following what i learnt. Please do have a look.

Thanks again,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Garima on June 17, 2016, 01:34:44 AM
I don't think i've accomplished enough to comment on your practice sheets but i would like to ask you what paper are you using? In case i can help! I've also had a lot of trouble finding the right paper when i started.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 17, 2016, 08:03:25 AM
Hi Garima,

I have seen your drills and they are amazing. So please go ahead. Every single comment is welcome and important to me.
The paper im using is an inkjet paper that you find in printing machines and whatever i find around me. I have not taken the effort to search for a specific paper. But it would be great if you could suggest me few and i can start on that.

Thanks,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: prasad on June 17, 2016, 08:41:43 AM
Hi Ashok,
First off,  great work.  Your writing is coming along superbly.  Just a couple of pointers over and above why everyone has already said here.

For paper:
I use the Bilt Executive Bond 85gsm printer paper.  You can also get 100 gsm paper which also works really well too.
As you are in Mumbai,  keep the paper ream in an airtight plastic paper wrap until you are going to use it.  If you leave it out for a while, it can start feathering when you specially use fountain pen ink.  This happens to me,in Pune itself, which is quite a dry place.

What ink are you using?
Have you ordered Walnut ink crystals from PIA?  If not, Send me your address by Personal message and I'll send you some.  It writes beautifully.

For guidelines:
Check out this thread and Reply #4.

http://theflourishforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=3322.msg45957#msg45957
I have explained how to use and makes guidelines.

You can print this out on the sheet and write over the guidelines.  Initially it helps me such a lot.
Salman had advised me about this earlier too.  height to width ratio is critical in Copperplate.  Try to keep it to width = half height.  It's all mentioned in the above thread.

Another very important this I was told by all in this Forum during my early practise:

Don't bother about flourishing.  Once you have the letter form down, it will come naturally.  You have superb pen control from what I have seen in your other work on IG. 
In this style start focus on ovals.  They are the CORE of this style of writing.

I use practise words like,   minimum, cooeeing, hillbilly, saudade, schwarzkopf vexed iraq big time in july. 


You've said that your order has already gone out to PIA.  But trust me,  you will be ordering a lot more very soon.  This is a very addictive art form.  For future reference read through this thread for tools and supplies

http://theflourishforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=3779.0


Hope this helps.
Happy writing
-Prasad
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 18, 2016, 04:33:44 AM
Hi Prasad,

Thanks for taking time to write such a detailed mail and for your kind words of appreciation.
I got so engrossed in the posts and links you mentioned that i almost forgot to reply back. Its definitely a very addictive art form.

Point taken on the paper bit. Im sure it will help me quite a bit. And Garima also had some suggestions on the same. Hope they are easily availble at stationary stores?
Unfortunately I haven't ordered the walnut ink crystals. May be will do that in my next order. Currently i use Sumi ink and sometimes Pilot Blue or Black.
Your post and receipe on how to make you own ink is just amazing. And im very tempted to try it out myself. Hope the ingredients are easily available or let me knw if there is any online site from were you order.

Coming to my writing. Previously i never knew there were drills and worksheets and a step to step guide. So i used to just write and try to copy the lettering.
But thanks to 'IAMPETH' and now 'Flourish Forum' that im exposed to all this methodogical way of learning. And i can see the progress. Sometime i get carried away and thats why you see the bad flourishes here and there. But i will try and avoid henceforth.

The topic 'Then and now' is a good initiative and a great means to compare and inspire new learners like me. It helps me realize that the more you practice the better you will get.

Thanks again,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Garima on June 18, 2016, 03:54:55 PM
Point taken on the paper bit. Im sure it will help me quite a bit. And Garima also had some suggestions on the same.

Okay so Prasad has already covered the paper bit :)

Bilt Royal Executive Bond 85gsm printer paper which i've also been practicing on. And yes the 100gsm paper works well too.
I've also used some conqueror ultra smooth diamond white 100gsm to write some letters. Since you work in an Ad agency, i'm sure you can source it, i did the same. But i don't use it for daily practice.

I was using the Daniel Smith walnut ink earlier and then Prasad sent me some walnut crystals. Thanks to him, i use only that for my practice now. Its gentle on nibs, flows nicely, highlights the flaws better and is economical!

You definitely should concentrate on the letterforms when you begin, is what i've heard and applying to my practice. I wanted to flourish as prettily as i could in the beginning but after a few failed attempts i just stuck to practicing the basics first and that's what i've been doing since i started in January this year. Flourishes can wait  :)

If you focus on just the letterforms, you'll start noticing whenever and wherever you make an error. If you have a problem with your slant angle, do one row and check the angle. In fact, after every 3 rows i critique my work and try improvising. Also, check erica's post here http://theflourishforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=181.0 (http://theflourishforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=181.0)
Hth!

Prasad, why did you not send me that awesome link when i began?!  :D
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 19, 2016, 07:39:22 AM
Hi Garima,

Thanks for taking time and replying. Appreciate.
Bought the Bilt Royal Exec bond 100gms yesterday. Will do some drills in a while.

So true about the flourishes and that a very valuable suggestion. Sometime you tend to get carried away.
Have heard so much about the walnut crystals and wish i would have met you guys before i ordered from PIA.
Anyways Prasad is been generous to offer me some  :)

I will talk to you later about the frequency of orders you place with PIA and time it takes to get delivered.
Right now my friend is getting for me so no worries about duties and customs, but if im not mistaken if your order is below $40 you have to pay @13 as shipping charges,
Duty i've no idea.

Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: prasad on June 19, 2016, 07:59:44 AM
Unfortunately I haven't ordered the walnut ink crystals. May be will do that in my next order. Currently i use Sumi ink and sometimes Pilot Blue or Black.
Your post and receipe on how to make you own ink is just amazing. And im very tempted to try it out myself. Hope the ingredients are easily available or let me knw if there is any online site from were you order.


I am out of Pune right  now.  Will be getting back around the month end, and I shall send you info on making your own iron gall ink.
Send me a private message with you address, will send you the Walnut crystals.
As you are already using fountain pen ink, see if you can lay your hands on Bril ink.  They have lovely colours and it writes beautifully.  If you find it a little too liquidy, you can add some Gum arabic to it and make it more viscous.

Prasad, why did you not send me that awesome link when i began?!  :D


You posted here too late ;D  all I could do is send you the holder ;)  Another reason why you need to join this Forum as soon as you think of calligraphy.  By the way,  have enough crystals left or do you need some more? 


I will talk to you later about the frequency of orders you place with PIA and time it takes to get delivered.
Right now my friend is getting for me so no worries about duties and customs,

Ashok

Custom duty is a hit and miss for us.  Sometimes they catch a random packet and you end up paying duty.  This is when it's sent by USPS from the States and taken over by Indian Post here.
If you get material by FedEx, DHL, EMS or any of those courier services,  you not only have to give a KYC to the clearing agent (courier guys) but 99.9.% of the time, you pay duty.  There is no hard and fast amount and rates can vary from 12.5% to 22.5%
Safest is by USPS or their local mail from Europe like Deutsche Post. 
It takes longer (can take unto 15-20 days) but gets here for sure and is Duty free.

Happy writing
-Prasad
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 19, 2016, 08:04:49 AM
I've probably visited this thread half a dozen times now, and each time backed away thinking I'm not competent to comment.  Which is true!

All the same, sheets 3 and 4 look particularly attractive to me: written with confidence and panache.  I see very little to critique in those.  As for sheets 1 and 2, your slant wanders a bit, but I'm guessing that you're well aware of that and have probably gone a long way towards curing it.  For my taste the writing is heavy for copperplate, but that's a judgment for you to make.  With a bit of luck some of the copperplate specialists will turn up and have something to say for themselves before long.

Hi Andy,
Sincere apologies for not replying. I dont know how i missed that.
I think your comments were very helpful and appreciate your kind words.
So thats what im going to do. After a through worksheets practice im going to write a para and compare it with the worksheet.
And again go back to worksheet drills and write a para. Hope to see some substantial change and will post them for your valuable comments.

Thanks again
ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 19, 2016, 08:44:54 AM
Hi Prasad,

I think i missed this msg.
Anyways i have sent you my address.
And thanks for the PIA order clarification.

Ashok
Title: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 20, 2016, 10:42:15 PM
Hello everyone,

Here is another practice sheet done over the weekend. Im still trying to get my angle consistent. And what I noticed is each upper stroke is not smooth. May be it's lack of practice and paper for sure as it tends to get stuck on upperstrokes. I have bought brit's Royal exec bond thanks to Prasad and Garima and its way better than what I use.

There is so much to learn and I have realised how important is to do those drills and worksheets. Thanks @Erica for taking so much effort in making those. So this is what I'm going to do start with the worksheet and after through practice do a paragraph or two. And then repeat the same. Suggestions and critique are most welcome so please don't hesitate. Looking forward from other members to comment.

Thanks,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on June 21, 2016, 12:23:58 AM
Ashok - what kind of Copperplate are you shooting for? It can be confusing that Copperplate can be interpreted in different ways and execute formally or more like handwriting. Your efforts seem more on the handwriting side.

It might be a good idea to pick an exemplar you like and then work towards it. After a while you will be able to write both formal and not-so-formal Copperplate but in the beginning it helps to focus on one.

Regards,
Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 21, 2016, 04:39:59 AM
Hi Salman,

Thanks for the reply. And agree to what you saying.
So in copperplate im focusing on Engraver's and Engrosserís script.
I follow Dr. Joseph Vitolo closely and been studying his style.
I agree that the posted drill looks more like a handwriting, the reason been i was trying a different nib and it was very stiff.
Had problem creating think shadows. Also the paper was not working in my favour.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on June 21, 2016, 03:26:10 PM
Thank you for the clarification Ashok. Engrosser's script is highly disciplined and is drawn quite slowly. It seems to me that you will need to slow down a lot in order to form the letters that way. The four items I mentioned in my previous post all still apply so more work is needed.

Dr. Vitolo's lessons are excellent. I learned a lot from them too when I was starting out.

I have found that a structured approach to learning the letters individually usually works best. For example, in the first group Dr. Vitolo has the letters c,e, o, s, a, d, g and q. A session (or three) focussing on these and the forming words using only these letters will give you better results quicker than if you just write out the whole alphabet over and over again.

Regards,
Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 22, 2016, 01:53:31 AM
Mrng Salman,

Agree with you. And thats what im trying to achieve. I usually watch the video of Dr. Vitolo's when im practising and its quite informative.
Will definitely try the method you mentioned. Also wanted to know if there are any specific work sheets for Engrossers on this site or any other which i can refer to? Prasad have helped me with Erica's copperplate drill worksheets and guideline generator.

Thanks,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on June 22, 2016, 02:22:40 AM
I used Engrosser's Script by W.A. Baird (http://www.zanerian.com/BairdLessons.html) in conjunction with Dr. Vitolo's video. In the Baird instructions, the lessons are divided into strokes which then add up to letters. Working this way gives one a good grounding in the shapes of the letters and the overall feel for ES I think.

As for the guidelines, I find it very useful to write at a large x-height. For the minuscules, I recommend no smaller than 1/4 inch x-height. The Majuscules are 3 x-heights tall, so they can be written at a smaller size and still be big enough to see the transitions.

I have attached the 1/4 inch guide sheet I use in my workshops. It works best if you print it out on the paper you are going  to be working on.

I hope this helps.

Salman

ps. I attached the A4 version of the guide sheet. Please let me know if you need the US-Letter version.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: flummoxed on June 22, 2016, 03:26:17 AM
Your practice sheets look really cool Ashok, and those with a better eye/hand than mine have already helped you.

In terms of the paper, just to add to what Prasad has mentioned, the BILT 100gsm and 85gsm have both been wonderful for me. Also try TNPL if you have access to it (Amazon/Flipkart or your local wholesaler).

Can I ask which brand of graph paper you had used in one of your earlier posts in this thread?
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 22, 2016, 07:44:13 AM
I used Engrosser's Script by W.A. Baird (http://www.zanerian.com/BairdLessons.html) in conjunction with Dr. Vitolo's video. In the Baird instructions, the lessons are divided into strokes which then add up to letters. Working this way gives one a good grounding in the shapes of the letters and the overall feel for ES I think.

As for the guidelines, I find it very useful to write at a large x-height. For the minuscules, I recommend no smaller than 1/4 inch x-height. The Majuscules are 3 x-heights tall, so they can be written at a smaller size and still be big enough to see the transitions.

I have attached the 1/4 inch guide sheet I use in my workshops. It works best if you print it out on the paper you are going  to be working on.

I hope this helps.

Salman

ps. I attached the A4 version of the guide sheet. Please let me know if you need the US-Letter version.

Hi Salman,

That was very helpful and thanks for the guideline sheet. Usually i like printing on paper i practice so far so good.
Let me do some basic first group letters on the sheet provided. Will post them as and when i finish for you comments.

Thanks
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 22, 2016, 07:48:49 AM
Your practice sheets look really cool Ashok, and those with a better eye/hand than mine have already helped you.

In terms of the paper, just to add to what Prasad has mentioned, the BILT 100gsm and 85gsm have both been wonderful for me. Also try TNPL if you have access to it (Amazon/Flipkart or your local wholesaler).

Can I ask which brand of graph paper you had used in one of your earlier posts in this thread?

Hi Flummoxed,

Appreciate your kind words and taking time to see my work.
Will look for TNPL. No harm in trying.

The graph paper i use is of a Indian brand called 'Navneet'
To be frank its not a good quality paper and not friendly with pointed nibs. It tends to stuck on upside stroke.
But since i was desperate to start and i had not joined this amazing forum before i started drilling on it.
Hope this helps. Feel free to ask if you want to know anything else.

Thanks
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 18, 2016, 09:16:44 AM
Hello everyone,

Was busy shifting cities and now got a bit settled. Here are my latest drills and experiments with different nibs. Also i used the oblique for the first time on these practise sheets, till now i been using the straight nib holder and i can definitely feel the difference.
Right now i have shortlisted two of the lot, which is Gillotte 303 and Brause 361. Have attached my practise sheets done with these two nibs.
Would appreciate your advice and comments.

I been also working on the most interesting 'Envelope Exchange' project from IAMPETH and it was wonderful to be part of it. I will be mailing out to the respective people on the list this week. @evjo let me know if its ok if i post it on this Forum?

So please RIGHT if im WRONG.

Thanks,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: evjo on July 18, 2016, 05:28:15 PM
Hello @ash0kgiri  ~

Usually we don't post exchange pictures until we know that everyone has received their envelopes.  This allows each person to enjoy being the first to see their own mail.

About whether it is appropriate to post IAMPETH exchange envelopes on the Flourish Forum... that's an interesting question.  You could ask @Erica McPhee what she thinks about this.

I'm not in charge of anything involving the IAMPETH forum, but it seems to me you could post them there in the envelope exchange thread.

By the way, I'm impressed with your focus & the improvement in your script.  I am soooo very unfocused that I make slow progress.  Thanks for the pictures.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 18, 2016, 09:38:31 PM
Hi @evjo

Understand, and thats why i thought i would ask before i post. Off course @Erica McPhee needs to approve those. And i was planning to do it once they have received the envelopes. Since im learning i just want as much feedback on my work as possible and areas of improvement.

Thanks for your time Ev. Appreciate.
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Erica McPhee on July 19, 2016, 04:27:09 PM
You can post any work you would like to share. However, please do not post any person's address (including those with the numbers blocked out). I actually would prefer members share work other than envelopes. Thanks for asking!
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 20, 2016, 02:10:22 AM
Hi Erica,

Point noted.

Thanks,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 21, 2016, 11:32:02 AM
Hello Everyone,

New worksheets awaiting your, 'Kind Critique'. There are lot of mistakes that i have noted down. Like the ovals are not perfect, missed the slant angle quite a bit, the upper and lower loop are inconsistent. The hairlines are shaky. Unequal spacing...

I would like all of you to please share your valuable comments and further scope of improvement especially the ones who had commented and guided me before @jeanwilson, @SMK, @evjo, @prasad, @Garima.

Thanks for your time,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on July 21, 2016, 11:52:17 AM
This is much improved Ashok. I am glad to see you have started writing the 'w' differently :-)

I think it might be more useful to work on groups of letters of the same shape at this point. As an example the letters i, u, and w are all based on the same 'i' stroke while 't' and 'l' are just long 'i' strokes. The letter 'b' is just an 'l' that with the exit hairline going up to the waist line. How about posting 5 words (e.g. tilt, ill, built etc.) made up of just these letters?

Please feel free to write longer texts if you feel like it but it helps to limit the focus of your practise sessions.

Regards,
Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 21, 2016, 01:02:17 PM
Hi Salman,

Thanks for your time and kind words. It really helps.
Let me get back to my desk and start with the group of letters you mentioned.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: prasad on July 21, 2016, 09:58:33 PM
Hi Ashok,
Really great improvement in your work.  I consider myself a beginner too, but I shall tell you what I was told for practise.

Like Salman rightly said, basic shapes need lot of practise.  Ovals, and ascender/descenders are crazy always.

I use the following to do my daily practise.  I try to get the x height to about 8mm, this really shows off the mistakes immediately. 

Words I use are  " cooking,  hillbilly,  minimum, saudade, little, -  Schwarzkopf vexed Iraq big time in July  "

Now if you really want it to be perfect, Do what Dr.Vitolo suggested.  Write words like cooking and little.  Then cover the top half of the x height with a paper,  the bottom half curves  should all be equal and the same.

The picture below is buy writing from 2 years ago, I still have not managed this  ;D ;D   Did not want to put Dr.Vitolo's image on here so put mine.  Should give you an idea of what I am talking about.

This was the main advice I received.  "Focus on words,  if you write full pages, you are concentrating on the text matter like spelling and stuff and not on the alphabet formation." 

Hope that helps

Can't wait to see your work with the walnut ink too. You should be getting that in a day or two for sure :)
-Prasad 
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 22, 2016, 02:20:29 AM
Hi Prasad,

Thanks for taking time to review and comment on the work. Really appreciate.
And agree that you tend to concentrate on text matter and spelling when you are writing full pages. Somehow i don't feel satisfied if i don't write something long. But let me see how i can apply your and @SMK suggestions in my long page writing along with the single letter drills that you have mentioned.

As i have mentioned that I closely follow Dr. Vitolo's videos and book while doing my drills. And i remember seeing what you posted.
Will be posting the drills that i did yesterday night for everyone to review. Find time to have a look and comments whenever possible.

Cant wait for the Walnut Ink. Thank you so much Prasad for sending it.

Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on July 22, 2016, 02:48:16 AM
Ashok - please feel free to write the full page compositions - those look nice and must be quite satisfying. The practice words I suggested can be done in addition to them.

In my opinion, you take on too much when doing full compositions like that. There are just too many things going on with different types of joins, inter-letter and inter-word spacing, opportunities for flourishing, occasional majuscules etc. for one to be able to pay attention to (and get really good at) any one thing. Breaking down the various components helps with learning each element well.

Having said that, we all learn differently. Motivation is more important than method so please feel free to ignore my suggestion if it doesn't work for you.

- Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 22, 2016, 07:47:50 AM
Hi @SMK

Im learning and you cant do that with a close-mind. Infact I have not tried enough to know whats working for me. Currently every piece of information and advice is only helping me. I write full page compostions because it gives me satisfaction. But its also true that breaking down elements or practising individual words helps with perfecting the form and build muscle memory. I always do a page or two of single alphabets / words as warm up before i go to full page compositions.

Attached are few practise sheets that you told me to do. I quite enjoyed it and it definitely helped me a lot. These were practised on an A3 paper as per your guide-sheet provided. Im still writing more words as it was 3:00 AM when i stopped. Please have a look and would be glad to know what you think and scope for improvisation.

FYI, the 'i' is written with Brause Rose nib and i felt the hairline was not thin enough and then i changed the Nib to Hunt 101.

Thanks again for your time and valuable piece of advice.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: prasad on July 22, 2016, 10:30:01 AM
Great practise.
Wish I had your discipline ;D

Quick note:
When you dot the i and j make the dot same diameter as thickness of the downstroke.
Small thing will immediately make it look uniform

Happy writing
Prasad
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 22, 2016, 11:23:41 AM
Hi Prasad,

Agree. I just kept it little smaller because in Dr. Vitolo's video he mentioned it better to keep it small as it shouldn't be a point of attraction.
But no harm trying and making it bigger.

Thanks,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: jeanwilson on July 22, 2016, 09:15:35 PM
i only have my phone for the next two weeks, so i can't see the details enough to make any comments. what i have read in the comments from the others is excellent advice.

i would encourage you to stop writing many lines of just one letter at a time. the connections and spacing is as important as the letters and you are missing half of what you need when you write separate letters. groups of two or three letters is fine. also, make sure you are thinking about proper word spacing between your groups of letters.

one of the elements that i heard from all of my teachers is to learn to look at the white space as much as you look at the strokes you are making. if you have not heard about doing this - let me know. it's one of those details that can make a big difference.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on July 23, 2016, 02:15:04 AM
This is good work Ashok.

I agree with Jean in that writing letters over and over can get boring. One of the techniques I learned from my teacher is to practice in groups of 5. Here is how it works: Write the letter you are practising 5 times. Now stop and go over each letter and place a tick (or check) mark over the best one. Now try to replicate the best one 5 more times and repeat the evaluation placing marks over the good ones. You know you have a letter down pat when you can get 3 or 4 good ones out of 5.

Practising with words is important. That is why I asked for the 5 words :-)

Now for some feedback.

1. I think your lead-in stroke is a bit too straight. It should be almost vertical at about halfway between the base and waist lines. This way the join with the shaded stroke will be smooth. Look at examples in the reference I mentioned earlier for good examples.

2. The shaded strokes start to become thin too early. Keep the 'i' full width for the first 2/3 of the stroke. The pressure is released in the last 1/3rd of the stroke. This applies to 't' as well.

3. The crossbar of the 't' should be straight.

4. The letter 'u' is too wide. The width of the letter should be 1/2 its height (not including the lead-in and exit hairlines).

5. Your spacing is generally very good. In the first 'tilt' the t-i and l-t joins are very good. However, the i-l join is a bit off - the exit stroke fo the 'i' should join the 'l' a little higher up at about halfway between the base and waist lines.

6. Your letters are bouncing on the base line a little i.e. some go below it while others don't quite reach it. This is easily fixed if you try to 'hit' the waist and base lines and lift the pen off the page at the base for a beat. Just lift it off slightly off the page and then put right back and continue with the hairline.

Don't worry about the hairlines and how fine a stroke you are getting at this point. These are issues that can easily be addressed later one. For now, you should practice with an ink+paper+nib combination that works consistently and without trouble.

Also, the angled pictures don't tell us much. The head on pictures show the letter shapes much more clearly.

I hope this feedback is useful to you. I group i, u, w, t, l, b, and j together in my workshops.

Regards,
Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 23, 2016, 04:55:37 AM

one of the elements that i heard from all of my teachers is to learn to look at the white space as much as you look at the strokes you are making. if you have not heard about doing this - let me know. it's one of those details that can make a big difference.


Hi @jeanwilson,

I agree it tends to get a little boring, but i feel practising single alphabets have made me more disciplined.
Words are more fun and you find a nice rhythm and variation while you practice.

Been into advertising and from an art school. Im very much aware of the white space / negative spacing fundamentals as i apply them daily during my work. Its more to do with ad layouts which includes fonts, spacing, kerning etc. But as you rightly mentioned applying this to while you are doing it is a different ball game and needs lots of practice. Im definitely working towards it.

Thanks again jean and i appreciate you taking time while on a holiday.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on July 23, 2016, 06:33:55 AM
You can find more instructions in the link in my signature :-)

Regards,
Salman

Just saw this one and it's AWESOME.   :)  Thanks for the link and the tutorial.  This is going to help me a lot in fine tuning. 

-Prasad

You are most welcome Prasad. I do hope you find it useful. I will add more details and further lessons there over the next few weeks. Please feel free to let me know if there are specific areas you would like me to cover.

Regards,
Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 23, 2016, 10:22:17 AM
This is good work Ashok.

I hope this feedback is useful to you. I group i, u, w, t, l, b, and j together in my workshops. You can find more instructions in the link in my signature :-)

Regards,
Salman


Hi Salman,
Glad you liked the drills. @SMK.
There is definitely a feeling of achievement and really motivated to try out further.
The feedback was very detailed and let me try and incorporate these in my next drills.
The link you sent is awesome and quite elaborate with small tips that make as huge difference.
Even like lifting of the pen down at the baseline and then continuing with the hair line.
The illustration on the site makes it easier to understand. Im sure you will also be having a video demonstration.
And i would love to see that if available.

Thanks again Salman. Appreciate your time.

Regards,
Ashok

Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 23, 2016, 10:42:41 AM

I am out of Pune right  now.  Will be getting back around the month end, and I shall send you info on making your own iron gall ink.
Send me a private message with you address, will send you the Walnut crystals.

Ashok

Hi @prasad

I think you need to send more of walnut crystals very soon.
Even though you have sent me plenty they are so amazingly good that i don't think I'm gonna stop writing :D
Right now i took half a teaspoon and i got a good 30ml. It fits well in a small broad mouth bottle and quite convenient to dip my oblique holder.

Here is how it looks.
Thank you so much for taking the trouble and sending me the crystals.

Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: prasad on July 23, 2016, 10:57:30 AM
So glad you like it. 

Not to worry about getting more.  I won a giveaway of Chris Yoke and got an Original vintage Zanerian Excelsior holder.(over a 100 years old)  @YokePenCo  His only request was to pay it forward.  So thanks to him and info from @AndyT I got a whole bunch of Vandyke crystals (great walnut ink) and am making packets of it for Indian calligraphers on this forum who can't get their hands on it. 

Will take till september for me to get my hands on it,  but I think the stuff I already sent you will last till then for sure ;)

Happy walnutting
-Prasad
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: jeanwilson on July 23, 2016, 12:47:32 PM

I agree it tends to get a little boring, but i feel practising single alphabets have made me more disciplined.
Words are more fun and you find a nice rhythm and variation while you practice.

Been into advertising and from an art school. Im very much aware of the white space / negative spacing fundamentals as i apply them daily during my work. Its more to do with ad layouts which includes fonts, spacing, kerning etc. But as you rightly mentioned applying this to while you are doing it is a different ball game and needs lots of practice. Im definitely working towards it.

Thanks again jean and i appreciate you taking time while on a holiday.

Regards,
Ashok

i'm not the person who said it was boring to do one letter at a time. it's not about boring. if it is what you choose to do - maybe it will work for you. my opinion that groups of letters are a better use of your time is based on many years of teaching and observing the results. others forum members have said the same thing.

the white space i am talking about is exactly what you expressed - applied to the smallest details. once students apply the principle to the smallest details - they seem to get over the hump of making many pages of single letters. by looking at the exact triangle that is formed when an oval is curved between the horizontal and vertical (and slanted) guidelines, it becomes much easier to make the exact shape you see in the exemplar.

IMHO it is not a good idea to write a full page of the letter o and hope that a couple of them are exactly what you want. if you are looking at the shape inside the oval as well as the 4 triangular shapes on the outside - each o will be the same. it's probably helpful to point out that you should not start with an o - or an a (learning the letters in alphabetical order is IMHO a terrible way to proceed - and yet, i have seen people who insist on doing that way) i prefer working on the letter i first - so that you have fewer triangles to look at. with the i, you only have the straight line and two triangles. but this is exactly where you will master the process if you connect them. it's like riding a bike. if you imbed that stroke and the two curves in your mind - it is not going to disappear. but you have to slow down and be vigilant about the consistency. then move on to the next basic stroke - and gradually you have all the letters. there are other posts that recommend the sequence of letters.

again - i know there are plenty of people who have used different methods and become master penmen. i only offer these suggestions because i have had plenty of satisfied students.

i am not on holiday - i am out of town watching grandchildren - so i have time during naps to post - just no computer with a large enough screen to see details in examples.

i hope your enthusiasm is contagious and that others will post their work too. it will be very interesting to watch your progress and get your opinion on which of the suggestions end up being the most helpful.  down the road, your perspective will be valuable to others.


Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 23, 2016, 02:35:58 PM
Hi @jeanwilson

Apologies for the wrong choice of words in the beginning.

I also started with random alphabets when I started couple of months back and was not introduced to this amazing forum.
It is lately that i got to know about the Group of letters to start practising with, thanks to you, @SMK & @prasad for helping with the necessary videos and practise sheets. I will keep in mind about consistency and perfecting group of letters in the order experts recommend.

If you ask me now it doesn't look like Im going to stop. Im getting back to my walnut ink and Hunt 101 before i go to bed.
I hope you and grandchildren are having a great time together. I will take your leave.

Thanks a lot for taking time Jean.
Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 24, 2016, 06:18:26 PM
Hi @SMK, @jeanwilson

Here are my today's practice sheets.
While doing these i had kept in mind the suggestions and advice that you had.
I have also ticked the ones that i felt were better in terms of spacing, character form, consistency etc.

Found a nice quote while going through, 'New Standard Practical Penmanship' and couldn't stop myself from writing it down :D
Have a look. Will appreciate your valuable comments and critique on them as always.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on July 24, 2016, 11:32:12 PM
Great improvement @ash0kgiri - it is clear that you are seeing the good ones and know what to look for. You might want to start squaring the tops on a regular basis now that the strokes are flowing more fluidly (like you did in 'jilt').

Some of the words were too heavy (e.g. 'jilt'). The 'tilt' you have ticked as a good one is about as heavy as you want to go.

The slant is still varying but it is much less often than before and it seems to me you are immediately aware of it. I think it is time to move on to the next set of letters based on the inverted 'i' and the compound stroke (as the two strokes of 'n'). The letters in this group are n, m, h, y, p and v.

I will be looking forward to some words using all the letters in the two groups :-)

Regards,
Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 25, 2016, 12:06:19 AM
Hi @SMK

Cant thank you enough for your kind words and motivation. I usually make sure that i square off the tops, thats kind of habit I'm trying to put in place. Since i had change my nib to what you had recommended in your link i.e Brause 66EF. I was trying to see how flexible it can be that's the reason you could see the variation in thickness. But you are right my comfort zone is the 'tilt' thickness.

Hope work doesn't come in the way of words. Its been a crazy working weekend. But will be troubling you with more practise sheets for sure. :D

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 25, 2016, 11:39:59 PM
Hi @SMK

Practice sheet for today. Worked on Group 2 letters and words combining both groups.
As yesterday i have ticked the onces which i have liked. And also my corrections in the one which i don't.
I was having a bit of difficulty in joining 'u' to 'n' or 'i' to 'n' were you need to continue the round loop onto the next one.
If you could show me how its done.

Im still going off with my slant angles. And its because Im working with a guide-sheet underneath a writing pad. Will try and correct those.
Getting used to the nib change so the shades are inconsistent. That's my observation

Would appreciate if you could let me know your opinion.

Thanks,
Regards
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on July 26, 2016, 12:40:54 AM
Wow Ashok - I don't think I have ever seen anyone produce such lovely work this quickly. This is indeed excellent Copperplate. You should be well pleased with yourself for this effort.

I will pick a couple of 'nits' as that is all you have left for me to pick :-)

You have a tendency to make the top part of the compound stroke a bit too thin. Look at the 'n' in the first 'nymph' - the tops of the two strokes should be identical - the first inverted 'i' is done well but the compound stroke begins a bit too slanted causing the top of the counter inside the 'n' to become too thin - do you see it?

Also, there is very slight curve in the shaded stroke of the compound curve. Think of it as the top part being an inverted 'i' and the bottom a regular 'i' that are joined in the middle - there should be no curve in this stroke.

The joins for letters that bring the hairline to the waist line are a bit tricky. However, you have correctly figured out how to make this join steeper than usual to maintain good spacing.

Pay attention to the waist and base lines and hit them every time - don't turn around before you are there.

Please move on to the third group of 'o' letters: o, c, e, a, d, g, q and form some words with it.

Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 26, 2016, 02:20:48 AM
Hi @SMK,

This is the greatest compliment I have ever got in my life. And I'm so happy to read this. I kind of patted by back after reading this post :D
But this would be impossible without your guidance. Thanks for been patient and putting some discipline into my writing.

I agree the top part of compound stroke is thin and i don't know why it didn't bother me :(
Will keep in mind not to have a curve in the shaded curve of the compound curve. Its just that you get an illusion that its a little curvy but thanks for clarifying.

Need more practise on words connecting 'u' to 'n' with the example you have shared.
Are you sure I should move onto the next group? I was planning to practise these for a day or two more.

And if you can share your link with Group 3 letters. It really helped me a lot.

Thanks for taking time Salman. Can wait for today's practise sessions. Will let you know how it goes.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on July 26, 2016, 05:02:07 AM
You are most welcome Ashok - you do deserve that pat on the back.

Another thing I just noticed in the practice sheet above is that your spacing after a compound stroke seems to be a bit too tight. This appears after an 'h' as well as a 'p' - something to keep in mind while practising :-)

Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 26, 2016, 05:28:20 AM
Hi @SMK

Thanks for sharing Salman. That would be really helpful for me to compare. The previous ones have definitely helped me.

Point noted on the tight spacing bit. Just wanted to ask you if there is any measurement that should be kept in mind while spacing or its
visual more than technical?

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: prasad on July 26, 2016, 06:00:38 AM
Just wanted to ask you if there is any measurement that should be kept in mind while spacing or its
visual more than technical?

Regards,
Ashok

Hi Ashok.
What you have accomplished in a few days took me over a year and I am still not there  :)  Awesome work.

When you make guidelines, the slants are spaced half of the x-height.  For most letters, widths are :
Lead in stoke (half x-height)
Letter (Half x-height)
Lead out/connector stroke (half x-height)

This is the advice I was given on here.  But I still have a long way  to go.  As you can see, missed touching the base line on the a and o  :)
Check out the below image. 

Happy writing
-Prasad
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 26, 2016, 06:35:22 AM
Hi Prasad,

Thats really motivating to get compliments from a senior member. Thanks for the kind words.
Wonderful demonstration. Appreciate your time for taking the effort and sharing. Will print my slant angles accordingly.

Thanks again,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 26, 2016, 04:56:30 PM
Hi @SMK

Here's Group three letters.
Im not happy with what I'm posting as i can see just flaws everywhere.
The ovals are quite tough and I'm struggling to make them perfect oval.
Most of the time I'm going off and not able to connect the down stoke to he up stroke.
I think Im doing it wrong. The oval thickness is not consistent and so are with other letters.
Spacing is off and so is slant angle.

Salman over to you. Will post round 2 again for review tomorrow.

Thanks,
Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on July 26, 2016, 06:03:50 PM
OK - I think it might be time to slow down a little bit for the round letters. I see that you are starting at the 1 o' clock position for the round letters. It can take a bit of practice to get back to the starting point consistently as it is a hairline. Most times, the join can be hidden by the blob of the 'o' or merged into the connection with the following stroke but even then it can show if they are too far off.

Practice just the 'o' stroke (no blob) in groups of 5. Give yourself time. I know it feels good to pick things up quickly but remember the ultimate goal is just to get it right - not get it right quickly :-)

When you move on to letters with strokes on the right ('a', 'd') resist the tendency to draw the closing stroke as a join. In the word 'aged' that is tick-marked, both the 'a' and the 'd' have the closing strokes going out to meet the second strokes rather than closing the oval.

Spacing is a subtle thing. Copperplate is nearly auto-spacing. The natural angle of the hairline exit from the baseline joining the following letter halfway up the x-height dictates the base space. It can increase a little in some cases (like the i-n join) or decrease a bit in others (i-r) join to maintain the overall texture. It is more a matter of skill than calculation - this is one of the biggest challenges in typography as it tries to quantify this 'skill'. There are some texts that have attempted to formalize a system of spacing but none have really succeeded.

The goal of spacing is to make the words readable and to give the text an even texture. It is ok, nay required, to break the rules to achieve the primary objectives. Those who can accomplish this in the most aesthetically pleasing way are the 'good' calligraphers IMO.

- Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 27, 2016, 03:45:46 AM
OK - I think it might be time to slow down a little bit for the round letters.

Hi Salman,

Very well said. Im ready to put in whatever hours of practise it takes to make them perfect vs how quickly I can see the results. That was never my objective. While i was writing the oval i realised that the closing strokes are going off and then i was trying to salvage it with a joint as you mentioned. But that not i wanted to do. So let me practise the 'o' without the blob and once i perfect that i would move on to other forms.
Also is there any video of yours with this letter form i can refer to. May be on Instagram. I will surely be helpful.

Thats the best 'Spacing' definition i have ever read. And nothing explains it better. Been into advertising i understand what you trying to say.  Copperplate 'spacing' is a different ballgame altogether but the fundamentals are the same as applied in typography.

Thanks again Salman.
Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 27, 2016, 06:08:01 PM
Hi @SMK

Today's drills on the reworked Group 3 letters. Done few but focusing on the shape of the letter form. Slowed my writing time drastically
Quite satisfied with the results. The ovals are way better than yesterdays. Not used blobs to hid the joint. :D
Started from 1'0 clock and did the full circle till i started.

Would like to know what you think. Appreciate your valuable time.

Thanks,
Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on July 28, 2016, 12:09:16 AM
Looks great Ashok - much improved.

Here are a few refinements:

1. The oval shape is now very good. However, in letters with a stroke following it, like 'a' and 'd', I see the second stroke going lower than the oval at the base line.

2. I also see the second stroke in the 'a' and 'd' being a little thicker than the thickest part of the oval. I think the thickness of the shade in the oval is a good weight - the heavier straight stroke should be lightened.

3. The 'g' is very nicely balanced both in slant and weight. The shade on the down stroke should taper off a bit earlier - the last little bit that comes down is just a hairline. This makes for a more delicate and pleasing 'g' in my opinion. 

4. The eye of the 'e' should join the shade a bit higher. It comes slightly below half x-height - it should be a little bit above it. The shade on the closing stroke should be very slight.

5. The hairline coming out of the blob on an 'o' (or the right side of a 'w') should move up immediately as if you are at the baseline. This will give you a little bit more horizontal room to turn around for the 'n' in 'won'. This turn is too tight in your examples.

6. The joins into the 'o' shape should merge at 1/2 x-height like the d-o join in 'dog'. The a-g and e-d joins in 'aged' and c-o and d-e joins in 'code' join the following letter too low making for an abrupt transition. The d-o join in 'dog' is much smoother by comparison - that should be your goal.

I am glad to note that the other letters are not suffering as a result of your focus on the round ones. This is a worthy accomplishment in its own right.

Regards,
Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 28, 2016, 12:31:34 AM
Hi Salman,

Much relieved. And felling good that you are seeing some improvements.
Thanks again for the detailed mail and explanation. In todays practise session let me try and cover all your points that you mentioned, along will pervious group letters. Is it ok if I do words combining all three letter Group?

Excited to get back to my practise desk :D

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on July 28, 2016, 06:00:45 AM
Hi Ashok - please do include letters from other groups in your practice. I choose the practice words for each group to include joins and combinations that can be tricky but practising other words and phrases can be very helpful.

One should set aside some time for dedicated practice with clear and concise goals e.g. the points I noted above. That time should be used just for achieving those goals. Outside of that is play time - enjoy your calligraphy :-)

I use my study time for specific things like coming up with exercises (and practising them myself) for spacing, fixing something that needs fixing e.g. 'a' in italic etc.

Regards,
Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 28, 2016, 06:23:05 AM
Hi @SMK

Thats what I'm planning to do. May it was not clear in my mail. I will include letters from the previous groups and do some word practise.
If you have any specific practise sheet that i can refer to, it would be great.

Thanks
Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 28, 2016, 05:33:29 PM
Hi @SMK

Here are today's practise sheets. Have mixed letters from the previous group.
Have a look and waiting to know your valuable feedback.

Thanks,
Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: s.hemprich on July 28, 2016, 11:19:32 PM
Just wanted to say your upper stem loops are looking much better! I would watch their consistency in terms of height.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 29, 2016, 12:26:22 AM
Hi Sandy,

Thanks for the kind words. Will keep that in mind.

Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on July 29, 2016, 10:07:26 AM
Looking good Ashok :-)

Like Sandy said, the loops should be the same height. I also think they would look better if the tops were a little more pointed and the widest point was a little lower than the absolute top of the stroke. This is just an opinion though.

In the second example, it looks like the straight strokes go a bit lower than ones that turn around at the base line. It might be the angle but it looks like the bottom of the 't' and stem stroke of the 'h' are lower than the second stroke of the 'h' and the following 'a' in 'than' on the last line.

Does it look like the 'e' in 'enigma' is leaning to the right too much? If you notice, the shade is thickest at just above 1/2 x-height - this causes the round letters to tip over. Also, the slant is a bit off I think.

These are minor things in the overall scheme of things. I think you have a very good sense of the balance and shape of the letters. I think the last group of 'misfits' will not be a challenge for you at all. Lets get to the f, r, s, x, z. You have the whole minuscule alphabet to play with now so come up with any words you feel like.

Regards,
Salman

ps. The joints into the round shape are still 'going in' a bit too low - watch out for those.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 29, 2016, 10:22:05 AM
Hi @SMK

I realised that about the loops and will keep in mind.
Sorry, but was not able to figure out the second comment you made.
I can now see and understand why the 'e' is leaning. And with this logic any letter will tend to look the same? Right?

Will move on to the last group of letters. Can i request you for a link to refer please. Sorry if I'm asking too much. But as i said
it really helps me a lot. :D

Thanks for your time Salman.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on July 29, 2016, 01:23:42 PM
Hi Ashok - sorry for not being clear with my comments. In the second example you posted, if you look at the base of the word 'than' on the last line, it seems like the bottoms of some strokes go lower than others e.g. the stem of the 'h' goes lower than the compound curve that follows. I hope it makes some sense now :-)

I don't have group 4 letters uploaded to WC as no on there has gotten to it. I will send you my workshop notes with the letter forms. There isn't as much detail there but you should not have any problems with it.

Regards,
Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 29, 2016, 02:37:49 PM
Hi Salman,

Clear as crystal. Thanks for the detailed explanation.


Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 29, 2016, 05:14:24 PM
These are minor things in the overall scheme of things. I think you have a very good sense of the balance and shape of the letters. I think the last group of 'misfits' will not be a challenge for you at all. Lets get to the f, r, s, x, z.

Hi @SMK

Here are the Group 4 worksheets. Couldn't stop myself from doing these.
Have ticked the ones which i felt were better. Still need improvements, will be working on them.
Also took one word which covers letters from most of the groups. Need to work on the hairline upstroke, which still looks inconsistent.
Will be doing more of these tomorrow, till then have a look and let me know what you think.

Thanks
Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on July 29, 2016, 05:23:51 PM
Nice work Ashok. The only thing I would add is that the second stroke of the 'k' goes a bit too far out and the hairline to the blob is too straight. This stroke is supposed to be very similar to the top of the unshaded 'c' in 'x'.

Also - if you relax your spacing just a little and things will fall into place easier.

I will not say anything about the slant on the main stroke of a certain 'f' (oops -I guess I just did)  :-[

S.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 30, 2016, 11:01:43 AM
Hi Salman,

Sorry for the delay in reply. Glad you liked them. The moment the nib touched the paper to execute the 'f' I could see that going off :(
What I've realised I start with the correct position of paper and the oblique and then tend to loose the angle as i start writing. Need to fix that bit.
Will keep in mind the 'k' second stroke and the spacing between letters.

Thanks again,
Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Ken Fraser on July 30, 2016, 05:52:40 PM
Also, the angled pictures don't tell us much. The head on pictures show the letter shapes much more clearly.

Salman is right!

This aspect is so important and is usually overlooked. Instagram is full of examples of lettering which may or may not be good. It's hard to tell, because evaluating and appreciating lettering when it is photographed at a low angle, is impossible as everything is distorted.

Ken
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 31, 2016, 01:14:03 AM
Hi @Ken Fraser

Thanks for taking time to comment. Really appreciate.
I completely agree with you. I have stopped clicking pictures of my drills and practise sheets in different angle atleast when posting it on this forum. I understand it looks dynamic and good on Instagram. But when you are learning it completely defeats the purpose.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 31, 2016, 03:21:31 PM
Hi @SMK

Sunday well spent. Few drills for you to see.
In the first words drill. Tried to space out the letters, but gradually it became tight towards the end.
Still working on the pointed upper stem loop. Which i was sort of successful at the end. But still not up to the mark and consistent.

Would be glad to know your opinion.

Thanks,
Regards
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on July 31, 2016, 03:35:45 PM
Hmmm - it looks good overall Ashok. The spacing in the second Sunday in the first sheet and greyhounds is good.

I struggled to find a good join going into a round letter. With 1 or 2 exceptions, they are all going in pretty low. You might want to stand up the exit hairline from the previous letter a bit more in order for it to meet the following round letter at 1/2 x-height.

The descenders in 'y' and 'g' can be a bit more delicate. Think of them as upside-down loops for 'h' and 'l'.

So I guess tomorrow you will be working on joins going into round letters and looped ascenders and descenders :-)

Also, you might want to play with a slightly lighter shade at the same size. It works better with tighter spacing and might help with the joins too :-)

- Salman

ETA - you can skip tagging me in the IG photos as I check in here regularly. The pictures on IG show up too small to be useful for our purposes.

S.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 31, 2016, 10:14:57 PM
Hi Salman,

- True.  I been struggling with the hairline join. Will it be wrong if try and join the letters later with a hairline?
- The 'g' in word 'megh' is that what i should aim for or more delicate than that?
- Will surely try words with a lighter shade. I been also trying a different nib so let me try a less flexible one.

As i mentioned I been in advertising I kind of like tighter spacing when i arrange my typo in layouts :( and thats rubbing off during my practise.
But yes will be definitely working towards it.

Point noted about the IG tagging.

Thanks for your time and valuable advice. Really appreciate.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Ken Fraser on August 01, 2016, 03:45:54 AM
The pictures on IG show up too small to be useful for our purposes.

When I open Instagram images on my phone (LG with a 5 1/2" diagonal image) the size is perfectly adequate for evaluation. Also Instagram pages are easily  available on my PC if I feel the need to view larger images.

http://instagram.com/fraser.ken

You're making great progress with every post, Ashok.  :)

Ken
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on August 01, 2016, 03:48:30 AM
Hi Ashok - you can make the joins whenever you want to. It might be harder to pick them up seamlessly from the base line after drawing the next letter but if you are ok with it I see no reason for not doing it that way.

One of the ways I was taught to draw all the letters using only pull strokes which meant I had to get really really good at joining hairlines coming from two different directions. It took a while but I did manage to do it seamlessly and the results were indeed quite consistent. I have not used that method in a long time but it is good to know it can be done that way :-)

As for the 'g' in megh - yup, that is a sweet looking descender.

BTW - I mentioned relaxing the spacing to make it easier for the joins to blend seamlessly. There isn't anything inherently wrong with tight spacing. Some of the masters' work is quite tightly spaced and looks just beautiful.

I should also mention that I am being rather hard on you regarding the joins and spacing. You can blame your ability and enthusiasm for that :-) You are producing acceptable Copperplate minuscules at this point. I just think you can do even better. Please feel free to let me know if you are not that into it.

- Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on August 01, 2016, 03:54:30 AM
The pictures on IG show up too small to be useful for our purposes.

When I open Instagram images on my phone (LG with a 5 1/2" diagonal image) the size is perfectly adequate for evaluation. Also Instagram pages are easily  available on my PC if I feel the need to view larger images.

http://instagram.com/fraser.ken

You're making great progress with every post, Ashok.  :)

Ken

Your eyes are much better than mine Ken :-)

I could look at the IG pictures in a browser but if I am in front of a computer I would rather view them here on the forum where I can provide feedback as well. It doesn't make much sense to me to to look at the picture in one medium and respond with my comments in another.

- Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Ken Fraser on August 01, 2016, 04:17:32 AM
I could look at the IG pictures in a browser but if I am in front of a computer I would rather view them here on the forum where I can provide feedback as well. It doesn't make much sense to me to to look at the picture in one medium and respond with my comments in another.
- Salman

Interaction is possible on Instagram, but only to a limited extent......I take your point :)

Ken
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 01, 2016, 05:59:17 AM

You're making great progress with every post, Ashok.  :)
Ken
[/quote]

Hi Ken,

Thanks for the kind words and motivation. It really makes a huge difference.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 01, 2016, 06:32:35 AM
I should also mention that I am being rather hard on you regarding the joins and spacing. You can blame your ability and enthusiasm for that :-) You are producing acceptable Copperplate minuscules at this point.

Hi Salman,

'Pressure creates Diamonds',  :D
You cant imagine how much I'm enjoying this process. Infact its your mentoring and this wonderful forum that have created the enthusiasm that i have today and with a purpose. And I don't intend to stop soon or at all :)

Good to hear that i can explore ways to work around my mistakes. Will stick around with 'g' descender and try to get it consistent across.

Thanks for clarifying the point about spacing. But I do understand what you meant. So another worksheet coming your way for evaluation soon :D

Thanks,
Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 02, 2016, 12:01:56 AM
Hi Salman,

Here's yesterdays practise sheets.
Tried to work on the spacing and the hairline join in oval letters.
Only in the letter 'hacked' i have joined the hairline later as mentioned in my previous comment.
For others i did as you said which is pulling the hairline a little up of 1/2 x height. Im quite happy with the way 'facade' has turned out to be.

Only the first sheet with lighter shade is done by Nikko G. And that was my warmup sheet. And 'greyhound' is with my regular nib, but applying less pressure.

Im have some what managed to keep the upper and lower descender / loop in same size but still not there.

Would be happy to know what you think.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on August 02, 2016, 01:05:17 AM
I think you've got it Ashok. This time I had to look hard for the 'impalements' :-) The weight of the letters in 'greyhound' is very nice.

I guess the ascender and descender loops can be a bit fuller. The 'g' in greyhound is just beautiful.

The stem of the 'k' should be taller than that of the 'd' in 'hacked'. The ascenders on the 't' and 'd' are not as tall as the rest of them. Also, it is generally a good idea to stick with either the looped or straight ascenders.

I think it is time to see one of your compositions before we jump into the majuscules. Are you up for it?

- Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 02, 2016, 05:14:16 AM
Hi Salman,

It really means a lot these words coming from you  :)
Will work on the ascender and descender loops.
Was trying to play with straight and looped. But understand it should be consistent.

Just for my clarification. So usually i write a para of a quote or a song. That's what you mean by composition?
Pretty excited to start the Majuscules. Im ready with my walnut Ink, paper and oblique. You tell me when?

Thanks,
Regards
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on August 02, 2016, 05:30:32 AM

Just for my clarification. So usually i write a para of a quote or a song. That's what you mean by composition?


Yup - that is what I meant. I think it is time we all enjoyed your Calligraphy a bit :-)

- Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 02, 2016, 02:23:42 PM
Hi Salman,

What better way to start the Majuscules with this composition.
Had lots of 'I' in one of the quotes :D

Have a look, hope you will like it.
And eagerly waiting for your comments.

Thanks,
Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on August 02, 2016, 06:28:11 PM
Nice work Ashok.

Lets move to the majuscules. They will come quickly now that you have developed good control with the minuscules. Spend all the time you need on getting the stem stroke just right - the work will pay dividends later.

Keep a light hand for hairlines drawn on the pull stroke like the loops on the ascenders and the first stroke of the 'N' - it is hard to do but it is well within your capabilities. Also, you might want to skip the shade on the loops until you have developed a very light hand. The shade you have on the loops right now goes all the way down to the waist line - which makes it far too long. For now just focus on getting the shape of the loop right.

It would be a good idea to include letters with the ascender loops in your Majuscules practice so you can work on both in parallel. We might do a focussed session on the loops if it is still not working out.

Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Bianca M on August 02, 2016, 08:44:18 PM
Popping in to say how much I am marveling at the progress you've made in 1.5 months, Ashok.  Your calligraphy is truly pleasing to look at.  I've also enjoyed reading all of the feedback on your practice.  Seeing how much it has benefited you and how motivated you are makes me wish I had such a wonderful forum to post to for critique back when I started... although, it is not too late, surely. 

Anyhow, be very proud.  I'm looking forward to being absolutely awed by you in the near future!
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 03, 2016, 06:43:42 AM

It would be a good idea to include letters with the ascender loops in your Majuscules practice so you can work on both in parallel. We might do a focussed session on the loops if it is still not working out.

Thanks Salman,

Excited as always :D. Will start majuscules tonight focusing on the stem stroke.
Agree with you on the 'N' bit  realised that there was not shade required.

I would follow whatever you say. So should i start with 'I' 'J' ...... 'F' or you want me to include some other letters?

On the minuscules. I was a bit confused when joining the letters 'o' & 's'. So should the join start from the blob of 'o' but then the lower part of the 's' will look weird... Please have a look at the word 'whose' from my previous post.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 03, 2016, 07:00:46 AM
Popping in to say how much I am marveling at the progress you've made in 1.5 months, Ashok.

Hi Bianca,

So much happy to receive such a compliment from you.  :D
And glad that you liked it and took sometime to visit this section. Really appreciate.
The credit goes to @SMK and members of this wonderful Forum for not losing hope on me and pushing me even though my writing was horrible. :)

I definitely intend to post something new everyday on this section. So keep visiting and feel free to let me know what you feel as every word matters.
Not thought about that day in near future but focusing on today and what i can achieve. But why not...

Keep writing,
Thanks again.

- Ashok


 
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Erica McPhee on August 03, 2016, 10:49:53 AM
Absolutely astounding progress Ashok! It's truly a joy to see how far you have progressed under Salman's tutelage.

Unfortunately, I have removed the links to the tutorials as they direct members to another forum.

Salman's instruction is outstanding and I am grateful for the sharing he does with our members.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 03, 2016, 11:48:57 AM
Salman's instruction is outstanding and I am grateful for the sharing he does with our members.

Hi Erica,

Many thanks for the kind words. Really appreciate.
Salman have really made a huge difference and I'm really grateful to have him as my mentor.

Its a bit to early to receive some pat on the back, don't know if I still deserve this.
Have so much to learn still.

Regards,
Ashok


Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 03, 2016, 06:48:01 PM
Hi Salman,

Here's the stem stroke from majuscules. Trying to get used to 3 x - height strokes. Realised you need a bit of complete hand moment to make this stoke graceful, its a little bigger stroke for just my wrist.

The ones that i have ticked in my view are a little closer to what I'm looking at. Rest all looked flawed to me. Waiting to know your feedback.

Thanks,
Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on August 03, 2016, 07:20:44 PM
Ashok

The stem stroke needs a little work. Here's how I go about it:  divide the stroke in 3rds - use the first third to go left a bit and gently expand the shade to full width at the bottom of the 1st 1/3rd. The middle 1/3rd is drawn at full shade all the way through. Start to taper off and move to the left as soon as you enter the last 1/3rd of the stroke. Finish on the baseline at almost a horizontal.

As @jeanwilson has suggested elsewhere, it might be a good idea to work the basic stem shape in pencil first. This is an excellent way to learn the basic shapes of the Majuscules without having to deal with the additional challenges of the flexible nib first.

I would also like to mention a couple of things I missed in my feedback about the longer piece you did.

1. The 'r' appears pinched at the waist line in all but the last instance - and even then, it is not quite right. The blob at the top is supposed to go 1/3rd of the x-height above waist line but none of it should be below it. Your blob for both the 's' and the 'r' is coming down below the waist line. Also, the shaded stroke in the 'r' is like a slightly stunted compound stroke - and should match the slant.

2. I have already mentioned the blob of the 's'. I also see a slight counter clockwise movement before you start with the inverted 'c' of the shaded stroke. This is most visible in the 's' in 'guides'. There should just be an inverted 'c', nothing else.

As for the o-s join you asked about - joining from the blob will not look strange as the blob of the upside-down 'c' fills up the space with the hairline quite nicely. It can look a little odd with o-r in which case I either draw the 'r' a tiny bit closer to the 'o' or opt for an alternate 'r' shape.

Now for the loops. It might be a good idea to refer to some of the classic exemplars for this. The loop of the 'y' in 'moneyface' is too flat which causes the exit hairline of the 'y' to not match the loop at all - do you see that?

Also, I see that your exit hairlines are now 'reaching out' for following letters which are drawn too far away now - see the 'a-c' and 'c-e' joins in 'moneyface'. Pull them just a little closer so as to maintain the natural angle of the exit hairline from the previous letter.

I know this is a lot to work on. I would recommend picking up one thing for each practice session so you are focussed. It is natural for the progress to be slower as you get better. Copperplate is one of the most challenging hands and you have made exceptionally quick progress so far.

- Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: jeanwilson on August 03, 2016, 07:51:21 PM
Hi Ashok:

I enjoyed following your progress while on my trip. You are definitely the quickest learner I have ever seen. Salman's instructions are fantastic. It is fun to have someone who is really sticking with the process and posting so often.

I have a question. I think the answer might be somewhere in the past discussion, but, I do not have time to reread everything. When you make your ascender loops, are you making the left (shaded) side and then going back and making the right (hairline) side, from the top down?

If you tried making the hairline - right side stroke going up from the baseline and curving counterclockwise at the top and then pulling the shaded left side of the loop (so that it was one continuous stroke) - and that wasn't working for you - what exactly was not working?

Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 04, 2016, 02:57:29 AM
I know this is a lot to work on. I would recommend picking up one thing for each practice session so you are focussed.

Hi Salman,

Many thanks for this detailed explanation. With the stem stroke was trying to follow the instructions as mentioned. Also tried few rounds with the pencil and then tracing the same with the pointed pen. Its definitely not easy and needs practise. Another round coming your way tonight.

- Realize the 'r' blob is more than 1/3rd of the x-height and is seeping down. Also the 's' with just inverted 'c'. Will take care of these in my next drill.

- Got your point on the o-s join and will look into the spacing with o-r.

- About the loops i realised this mistake of 'y' joining on to 'f' is force fit. Understand the letters reaching out in a-c and c-e. Can see them clearly. This is happening because I'm trying to join the oval letters at 1/2 the x-height.

Thanks again,
Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 04, 2016, 04:26:20 AM
If you tried making the hairline - right side stroke going up from the baseline and curving counterclockwise at the top and then pulling the shaded left side of the loop (so that it was one continuous stroke) - and that wasn't working for you - what exactly was not working?

Hi Jean,

Nice to hear from you. And glad you see some progress. Feeling happy :D

To answer your question. I used to do it as you mentioned, in 'one continuous stroke' going up from baseline and curving counterclockwise, but not any more. I feel more comfortable when i start with making the left (shaded stroke) and then go back making the right (hairline) from top down. What i have noticed is with this i have control over my loop which i most of the time tend to finish after i write the complete word. It also helps me with been consistent with the loops if Im writing a para.

I had not given enough tries to the second option you mentioned to say its not working for me.
Hope i have answered your question Jean.

Thanks for taking time.
Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Ken Fraser on August 05, 2016, 04:14:33 AM
I have a question. I think the answer might be somewhere in the past discussion, but, I do not have time to reread everything. When you make your ascender loops, are you making the left (shaded) side and then going back and making the right (hairline) side, from the top down?

If you tried making the hairline - right side stroke going up from the baseline and curving counterclockwise at the top and then pulling the shaded left side of the loop (so that it was one continuous stroke) - and that wasn't working for you - what exactly was not working?
Hi Jean,
I think that it depends on whether or not you want to incorporate the tiny shade on the hairline, right side. This is only possible if you write the letter in two strokes.
Historically (18th century) ascenders were almost always just a straight line (a). When loops were introduced (b) the letter was made just as you describe it "the left (shaded) side and then going back and making the right (hairline) side, from the top down". In this way, the small shade on the right side can be produced. It is interesting to note that there is no attempt to make the lead in hairline appear to connect continuously with the loop hairline. I'm self taught from Dick Jackson's "Copperplate Calligraphy"(c) He advocated a one-stroke letter, starting with a hitched hairline. Lastly (c) is the Engrosser's script form; written in two strokes as in (b) but with a larger loop which appears to be continuous from the lead in hairline.


(https://theflourishforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi226.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd289%2Fcaliken_2007%2FElles%2520501_2.jpg&hash=d256595a724d74aaada6c2a0e5256159)

As others have noted, excellent progress Ashok!
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: jeanwilson on August 05, 2016, 07:32:22 AM
thank you, ken, for the info on the loops.
do you have time to add notes on the r and the s?
there are so many variations - and i do not do any *formal* copperplate or engrosser's script.
i only do handwriting that in complementary to fonts.

ashok - do you intend to learn a specific style - or are you going to combine a variety of exemplars and come up with your own personal style? it doesn't matter to me which way you are going - but it is helpful to know before making any additional comments.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Ken Fraser on August 05, 2016, 08:10:45 AM
ashok - do you intend to learn a specific style - or are you going to combine a variety of exemplars and come up with your own personal style? it doesn't matter to me which way you are going - but it is helpful to know before making any additional comments.

Good point, Jean.

I think that Ashok mentioned earlier that he/she was studying Engrosser's Script and, in particular, following Dr Joe Vitolo's instructions on IAMPETH.
Nevertheless, the confusion between Copperplate (English Roundhand) and Engrosser's Script seems never-ending and early clarification as to preference, is to be welcomed, as this avoids too many sidetracks!

BTW I quoted your description of how the ascender loop is constructed, as it explains the situation perfectly and I couldn't think a clear way of describing it!
Sometimes explaining these complicated details is a bit like describing a spiral staircase to a blind man!

I'll put something together on the r and the s in the next couple of days.

Ken
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 05, 2016, 10:06:11 AM
ashok - do you intend to learn a specific style - or are you going to combine a variety of exemplars and come up with your own personal style? it doesn't matter to me which way you are going - but it is helpful to know before making any additional comments.

"I think that Ashok mentioned earlier that he/she was studying Engrosser's Script and, in particular, following Dr Joe Vitolo's instructions on IAMPETH.

Hi @jeanwilson, @Ken Fraser,

Appreciate your comments and feedback.
It's too early for me to even talk about creating my own style. Right now Im only focusing on Copperplate (Engrosser's script) and as Ken rightly mentioned I started with watching Dr. Vitolo's videos on IAMPETH. I also want to learn Ornamental script, but that will be a little later and will clearly ask for guidance from this forum when I decide to start.

Ken many thanks for sharing the ascender loop construction. Will surely be very helpful.

Hope I have covered all the points. Feel free to ask if i missed on anything.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 05, 2016, 07:13:34 PM
Hi @SMK,

Back with the 'stem stroke' practise sheets.
Also have worked on the 'r' and 's' as per your last feedback.
Have chosen words with 'o-r' join and 'o-s' join.

Take a look. Waiting for your comments.

Thanks,
Regards,
Ashok

Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on August 05, 2016, 10:54:27 PM
Hi Ashok - the stem stroke shape is pretty good now but the shade is a tad too heavy. If you are going by the workshop notes, the stem stroke by itself is made a little heavy in these to illustrate the transitions better. You will see the shade isn't as heavy in the 'I'. I think it is time to start with some I, S, T & F words.

Also, let me point you to a couple of my favourite exemplars. I am a big fan of  Lupfer's example here (http://www.iampeth.com/sites/iampeth.com/files/artwork/EALupfer.jpg). Notice how delicate the lettering in general is but especially the stem stroke in the majuscules. This example also has an alternate 'r' you might want to try.

Also of note is this example from W. A. Baird. (http://www.iampeth.com/sites/iampeth.com/files/artwork/BairdLetter300.jpg) - In some respects this is even better than Lupfer's example above. This, has yet another 'r' you can learn.

Now for the 'r's in your examples - you have it right in 'hackamores' but you have a tendency to bring the shoulder down too far. How about switching to Lupfer's 'r' for a bit just to give yourself a break. Sometimes it helps to walk away from a thing for a little while.

The down stroke loops are better shaped but your hairline is still too thick. The hairline part of the loop should be no thicker than the hairlines in the joins. Also, notice the shape of the loops in Baird's example - that is the one to copy.

It might feel like you are spinning your wheels a bit here but you are making progress - you just haven't broken through yet. You have come further than most. This is where a lot of people would give up and just settle for good enough. I'm with you if you are up for pushing through.

Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 06, 2016, 02:21:31 AM
This is where a lot of people would give up and just settle for good enough. I'm with you if you are up for pushing through.
Salman

Hi Salman,

Believe me. Not for a second I ever thought to settle for what I have achieved in these couple of months nor felt that my practise is not fruitful in any way. I really love to write and your comments are taking me back to my desk again to write :D. I'm really up for whatever it takes to perfect this script and please don't hesitate to push me even further in whatever way you feel right.

The shade of the stem stroke i had kept it heavy intentionally as to understand the transitions better. Infact I was trying to match that to your workshop notes. Once i get the correct transition I thought i would lower the pressure and do some drills with that. If you see start of line '4' in my practise sheet i had done few with lighter hand. I do realise that overall it shouldn't be that heavy. Let me send you another round with lighter shade followed by the letters you mentioned :D.

The exemplars of 'Lupfer & Baird' are just wonderful to watch. The blob in Lupfer's 'r' comes up from the waist line and doesn't in Baird's 'r' and it just till the waist line... Correct me if I'm wrong.

Will take a different approach for the hairline in down stroke loops. Like turning the paper and treating it like a upstroke or a continuous loop (but Im worried about consistency). Baird's example is just too good.

Also Salman i wanted to ask you about the speed at which you write copperplate. I know and you have also mentioned in your earlier post that its written slowly and thats exactly what Im doing. But i think Im writing it really very slowly and because of that I feel that the hairlines are sometimes uneven and breaky. Is there any video i can see which gives me an idea of the speed at which you should write?

Thank a lot for your taking time to comment. Really appreciate.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on August 06, 2016, 03:38:53 AM
Hi Ashok - I will send you a link to a video I made for a workshop where we couldn't cover some of the letters. It is a private video since it was made for a specific purpose. It will give you some idea of the speed I write at. However, that is just the speed I write at and not the recommended speed in any way. You will see some penmen write slower while others are much faster. You should write at a speed that is comfortable for you - as long as the stroke is ALWAYS in your control. 

You are right about Baird's 'r' - the blob does start at the waist line. The first stroke is an inverted 'i', the second starts like another inverted 'i' but stops at the waist line - the time blob shade is drawn to the right of where the hairline stroke and matches the shape of the blob at the end of a 'w' , 'v' or 'b'.

If you are to follow an exemplar, follow Baird's. I don't really see the need for anyone to present exemplars when we have such excellent specimens to study from.

BTW - do you know the story about Lupfer when he joined the Zanerian College of Penmanship? The story goes that he showed such poor results after a few weeks of study that Zaner called him in his office and offered to refund his fees if he wanted to quit. Zaner did not think Lupfer had the required skill and control to be any good at penmanship. Needless to say, Lupfer refused, got to work and became one of the best penman of his time. He eventually rose to become the Principal at the Zanerian college.

Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Ken Fraser on August 06, 2016, 03:59:10 AM
Hi Ashok,

Just a small point, but an important one.

Written English Roundhand (Copperplate) and drawn Engravers's (Engrosser's Script) and not the same thing. Although connected, there are many differences between the two.

You appear to be studying Engrosser's Script and Salman's examples by Baird and Lupfer, and indeed by Dr J Vitolo, are Engrosser's Script.

If you look at these examples of English Roundhand (Copperplate) by Enoch Noyes, you'll see the clear differences.

http://www.iampeth.com/pdf/noyes-penmanship

Ken
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 06, 2016, 05:57:34 AM
Hi Ashok - I will send you a link to a video I made for a workshop where we couldn't cover some of the letters.
Salman


Hi Salman,
Thanks for sharing salman. Its was so nice to see you write :D. Watched it atleast 5 times. And now i feel like going back to minuscules an doing it again.

Thanks for the clarity on the the exemplar's and its worth studying from these great penmen. Lupfer's story is just unbelievable. Wondering would he had practised to become the best penman of his time?

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 06, 2016, 05:59:49 AM
Hi @Ken Fraser,

Thanks for link. Will have a look. Really appreciate.

Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Ken Fraser on August 06, 2016, 08:15:10 AM
As Jean suggested earlier, here are comparisons of the letters r and s.

(1) is English Roundhand  in the style of the letter r from the 18th century "The Universal Penman".

(2) is the Engrosser's Script equivalent. It's somewhat wider, in slightly heavier weight and with a larger, more open, loop.
The second, upward hairline emerges much earlier from the downward shade.

(3) is a different form of the Copperplate r which is widely used.

(4) is the Spencerian form. From the top, the second stroke slopes down much more severely and the letter is lighter       overall, with very light shading.

(5) is the letter s from the same English Roundhand (Copperplate)  family as (1) Note that the terminal dot is bisected by the hairline.

(2) This s is in Engrosser's (Engraver's)  script with the shading more evenly distributed from top to bottom. The dot stops short of the hairline.

(3) This is a Spencerian s. Much narrower with no shading and no terminal dot.

(https://theflourishforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi226.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd289%2Fcaliken_2007%2Far%2520and%2520es%2520500.jpg&hash=c76ed73f09455a950363e28ffde99cc7)
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 06, 2016, 08:56:01 AM
Hi Ken,

This is really useful. Thanks for all the effort and sharing.
Really appreciate.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 06, 2016, 04:59:40 PM
Hi Salman,

Another attempt with the stem stroke with lighter shade. What I also realised that a little speed while making those strokes was useful to make it look seamless. Followed by the letters 'I' 'S' 'T' & 'F'. As compared to your worksheet nowhere close :(  Marked the ones which I felt were visually ok. Would be happy to know your valuable comments.

Thanks,
Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on August 06, 2016, 06:14:50 PM
Nice exercise Ashok. The stem loops look very nice now and even more refinement will come with time as you study the exemplars from the masters.

The shade on the loop of the 'I' and and the 'S' and the crossbars of the 'T' and 'F' are supposed to be half the width of the main shade. It doesn't have to be exact but should be visibly lighter than the main shade.

There is a lot of variation in the shape of the crossbar in examples from various penmen. I think you have it very nicely in the 'F' you tick marked as well as the 'F' next to it. It is more important to be consistent so all your crossbars match. The 'T' is varying a bit too much but I think you got a good handle on it by the time you got to the 'F'.

The 'S' you marked looks very good to me. The curve at the bottom could be a little flatter - like the first 'S' on that line.

You can make good letters - the next step is to develop consistency. Here's your next task - and it is a little difficult but I think you can manage it. Practice all the majuscules I, J, S, T, F & L in groups of 5 until you can get at least 3 out of 5 right. Post one word starting with each letter. The Majuscules, joins, spacing and letter shapes should all be perfect. Don't post it if you can see a flaw yourself.

Feel free to ask questions if you have any (and post examples) but I expect the final exercise to be a perfect rendering using all the knowledge you have gained until now.

Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 06, 2016, 06:49:43 PM
Practice all the majuscules I, J, S, T, F & L in groups of 5 until you can get at least 3 out of 5 right. Post one word starting with each letter. The Majuscules, joins, spacing and letter shapes should all be perfect.

Hi Salman,

Appreciate your prompt reply :D
Got your point on the shade on the loop of the letters. And pretty clear with rest of the feedback.

A slight clarification on couple of points -
- By 'crossbar' you are referring to the top hairline which continues from the shade on the loop on 'T' & 'F' right?
- The next exercise you told me to do is only with Majuscules you mentioned and that one word I need to post is the perfect one of the lot? Correct?
  Or you want me to have a word with a Capital as well as small letters.

Thanks,
Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on August 06, 2016, 08:24:09 PM
Yes - the crossbar is the loop on the side of the T and F that continues around and over the top of the stem stroke. BTW - this stroke is not supposed to touch the stem at all. There should always be a tiny gap at the top of the stem stroke.

I would like you to practice the majuscules in groups of 5 until you can get at least 3 good ones out of 5.

What I would like you to post is a word starting with each Majuscule - so you will post 6 words in total. All done perfectly in one place. My purpose for this assignment is to develop consistency (and give you a little hard time :-). I now it will be frustrating when you mess up the 4th letter having 3 perfect ones but the repeated practice will pay dividends later. You don't have to write it in one sitting - you can take a short break after a couple of words - or even every word. You can also practice each word on a scrap piece of paper before writing on your neat copy.

BTW - one wouldn't do it that way for print work as it is far easier to cut and paste the best examples together and print them out. Most, if not all, of the exemplars of the complete alphabet we see from the masters were composed by pasting the best letters together.

- Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 07, 2016, 02:59:51 AM
Hi Salman,

Clear as crystal. Now i realise thats its really a tough task. But equally excited to start my practise.
Cant wait to get them all 'perfect' :)

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: jeanwilson on August 07, 2016, 11:19:34 AM

It's too early for me to even talk about creating my own style.
Regards,
Ashok

This was in response to me asking if you were going to follow one specific exemplar.
I was not suggesting that you create your own style, I was noting that it is common for people to assemble a style that is not a exact reproduction of an original.
Because there are so many variations in pretty much every style, IMHO we all tend to pick and choose and assemble our favorite letters into a set of letters that is not one specific set of letters.

I think Salman recommended the Baird exemplar.
Are you going to go with the Baird exemplar? And if so - Salman, is there a link to one specific exemplar?

In my experience, it is easier to give directions when everyone is looking at the same exemplar....including the student.
I frequently catch students who do not have the exemplar right above the page they are writing on.
They think they have the exact shape in their head and they have a whole page of attempts - but they also have a whole page with mostly misses.

To really imbed the shape in your hand/eye/brain - it is helpful to keep looking at the exact shape or stroke or letter that you are working on.
Relying on your memory in the beginning is like putting the cart before the horse.
Put your road map in front of you - and follow it - and the exact shapes will appear.

Of course there is no way to prove that this works....so feel free to leave your exemplar in hiding :-)

I also recommend that people have a set of words or names that include every cap and every lower case letter.
This is the list I use for practice:
Anna Bob Cecil Dad Ellen Fifi Gigi Hugh India Jojo Kiki Lola Mom Nona Otto Pop Quequ Rory Sis Tate Ursu Viva Wow Xerxes Yoyo Zazu
If you have a list like this memorized, it is easy to sit down and practice the whole alphabet.


Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on August 07, 2016, 01:33:35 PM
Jean - good point about keeping the exemplar in view when practising and not relying on memory. I have been guilty of doing this when learning and it did set me back.

I offered Baird's and Lupfer's letters as examples of refined work. I think these letters serve as better examples than just the alphabet written out as they show the various joins and also some variations. Both Baird and Lupfer have lessons on Engrosser's script on the IAMPETH site but I don't think they would help Ashok at this point.

We were working off my lessons I uploaded elsewhere. The links have been removed as it violated the rules of linking to another forum but Ashok has the links as well as my workshop notes for the lessons that are not online yet. I plan on sharing the tutorials here at FF too as there seems to be interest.

- Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 07, 2016, 05:26:41 PM
I think Salman recommended the Baird exemplar.
Are you going to go with the Baird exemplar?

Hi Jean,
Many thanks for this valuable piece of information and advice.
As Salman said Im following his tutorials and will eventually move to exemplar which Salman have suggested.
Im still getting my basics right and it will be a while before i get a good grip on them.
Thanks for the set of words they will be definitely stored in my memory.

Regards,
Ashok

We were working off my lessons I uploaded elsewhere. The links have been removed as it violated the rules of linking to another forum but Ashok has the links as well as my workshop notes for the lessons.

Thanks Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 08, 2016, 01:33:40 PM
I would like you to practice the majuscules in groups of 5 until you can get at least 3 good ones out of 5.
What I would like you to post is a word starting with each Majuscule - so you will post 6 words in total. All done perfectly in one place.

Hi Salman,

Here are the 6 Majuscules in groups of 5 with a word starting with each Majuscule.
It was quite a tough exercise but had the most fun doing it. :)

Had some problem with the nib and paper as it was catching up on the upstroke. But tried my best to make it look seamless.
Have a look. Hope it meets your expectations. :-X

Thanks,
Regards,
Ashok
 
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on August 08, 2016, 03:51:56 PM
A valiant effort indeed Ashok. Here's my feedback:

Industry: The slant of the letters is not consistent.The 'In' is fine but then the letters start to 'stand up' gradually. Notice the slant of the 'd' is a bit too upright and the 't' is even more so. The 'r' is nice.

Jughead: The is nicely done. I like the 'J' descender to extend 2 x-heights below base line. While it is acceptable to match the 1.5 x-heights of the other descender, I like it to be a bit longer.

Sphongle: The 'S' needs work here. The loop is a bit too wide and the shade on the right makes the letter fall over to the right. It might be a good idea to be a little conservative with the loop if you are going to use the shade on the right.

Tautonym: It looks like you are getting tired here - or writing in a hurry. The spacing is condensed but the connectors don't get steeper correspondingly. The result is low connections in the 'a-u-t' part. Also, the curve at the bottom of the stem stroke of the 'T' is a bit too tight which adds tension to the letter. The curve on the crossbar of the 'T' is more gradual, not concentrated in the end on the right side.

Farmland: The stem on the 'F' is just beautiful. Compare the curve at the bottom with the previous 'T' - do you see how tense the 'T' looks now? The crossbar on the 'F' is better too. The minuscules are nicely done but the 'o' shapes of the 'a' don't touch the base line which causes a little unevenness. The upper turns on the 'm' are too pointy.

Laydown: The loop of the 'L' is both too wide and comes down a tad too low. It could have been balanced better with a wider loop on the left. Again the round part of the 'a' doesn't quite come down to the base line and the last stroke of the 'w' seems to not want to meet the waist line.

Overall I am well pleased with the result. One can always find little things to fix here and there. That is the nature of what we do. At this stage, you are more than capable of fixing all of the things I mentioned. My main purpose in pointing these out is so you start seeing them.

How about we go and give the remainder of the 'Stem Stroke' letters the same treatment i.e. one word for each letter?

- Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 08, 2016, 04:37:15 PM
Overall I am well pleased with the result.
How about we go and give the remainder of the 'Stem Stroke' letters the same treatment i.e. one word for each letter?

Hi Salman,

Thanks for the honest feedback. Much appreciate. Will be definitely looking into those details under the microscope.

Already up and ready for the remainder' Stem Stroke' letters :)
Just wanted to ask you if you wanna see the remainder exercise in the same format that I posted today or you just want to see the words?
The video you sent helped me quite a bit. Can I ask you if you have one for Majuscules?

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on August 08, 2016, 05:06:03 PM
Hi Ashok - I made that video for the participants of a workshop. That is the only video I have. I do intend to do a series of videos to go with the lessons but I am not sure when I will get a chance to do those.

Can you tell me how the video helped you so I can incorporate those elements in future videos.

- Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 09, 2016, 07:10:23 AM
Hi Salman,

The video along with the information gives a very clear picture of the process and the breakdown of each elements that join to form a letter.
Let me know if you are looking at anything specific.

Thanks
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on August 09, 2016, 01:29:40 PM
Thank you for the feedback Ashok. I was not looking for anything specific.

The concern I have about making videos is that students naturally try to emulate the style, grip and pace of the demonstration - as I did when watching Dr. Vitolo's videos when start out. It took me a while, and not a little frustration, to realize that my pace was totally different than what I saw on the videos. In fact, it wasn't until I saw myself writing in some other videos of writing Arabic that I realized it myself :-)

- Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 09, 2016, 01:56:33 PM
The concern I have about making videos is that students naturally try to emulate the style, grip and pace of the demonstration - as I did when watching Dr. Vitolo's videos when start out.

Hi Salman,
Now that you have mentioned, I also have a doubt about the pace I write. My pace is quite slow and it takes me longer to finish the assignment. Thats the reason the other day I asked you about the speed you write copperplate.

My observation till now is. When i write Minuscules i like it slow. But while I was doing Majuscules a little speed helped me with larger stem strokes to have the finish and minimum touchups later. But Im still struggling with my upstroke hairline and is not as smooth as I wish it should be.

Is there any drills that I can do which would help me improve them?

Thanks,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on August 09, 2016, 02:38:14 PM
I don't know if there are any drills specific to developing upstroke hairlines.

Spencerian drills are designed to develop muscle memory so as to be able to produce strokes with fluid motions without any hesitation. I am not sure I would recommend those as I actually consider muscle memory to be a hindrance rather than an aid to Calligraphers. It really is muscle 'control' we need to develop rather than muscle 'memory'. In my opinion control results in the ability to execute strokes with full attention on how it is drawn while the memory results in being able to execute strokes without having to think about them as if on auto-pilot. I consider the 'memory' part to be a hindrance as it would make it hard to control the nuances that differentiate say a Copperplate 'm' from an Engraver's 'm'.

Control is developed by conscious practice. The elements that affect the outcome are many: the sitting position, the level of the desk and the chair, comfortable clothing, ink+paper+pen combination, position of writing e.g. writing in the 'zone' vs. stretching out to the end of the line etc. Experts always try to make things easy for themselves e.g. they will eliminate as many of the challenges as possible like finding a good setup, use pen+ink+paper combinations that are known to work well, move the paper frequently so they are always writing in the 2-3 inch zone that gives them the best control etc. By conscious practice I mean being aware of all of these things and how they affect your work.

Some people might be affected more by one thing than another - as an example, I can work in slightly awkward positions but just cannot stand a nib that is not tracking well. I have holders with slightly different flanges that work best for different nibs and I can tell immediately if a nib is not working well in a particular set-up.

I hope this helps you somewhat. I would very much welcome the thoughts of the experts on this forum in the matter of developing control.

- Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 09, 2016, 03:43:14 PM
Hi Salman,

Many thanks for bringing this on table. There are so many minute points that should be taken care off. Couple of things from the to do list i tend to do, but rest i need to follow consciously hence forth.

I never thought about Spencerian drills would be a hindrance to copperplate. So if i decide to learn spencerian would it come in my way of learning copperplate? Or is it after a point you adapt and switch accordingly? Sorry if I'm sounding vague.

Thanks,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on August 09, 2016, 03:54:58 PM
That is a very valid question Ashok. Learning Spencerian should not cause any problems with your Engrosser's script once you have learned it. It would be difficult if you were learning the two together though. My comment was about using those drills to help you with the hairlines.

Interestingly, coming to Spencerian with a Copperplate/Engrosser's background sometimes causes problems with spacing. The spacing in Spencerian isn't as 'automatic' as Copperplate and needs to be based on the rhythm of the writing. In this respect Spencerian is closer to handwriting than Calligraphy IMO.

- Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: evjo on August 09, 2016, 05:52:17 PM
Ashok & Salman -  I really hope you get to meet each other in person some day. 
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 09, 2016, 11:02:42 PM
The spacing in Spencerian isn't as 'automatic' as Copperplate and needs to be based on the rhythm of the writing. In this respect Spencerian is closer to handwriting than Calligraphy IMO.

That was a sign of relief Salman :D . That was indeed a very good explanation between both the scripts.
Eventually I wish to start Spencerian / Ornamental. I'm been greedy now  :-X

Thanks,
Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 09, 2016, 11:15:26 PM
Ashok & Salman -  I really hope you get to meet each other in person some day.

Hi EV,

I always knew you had clairvoyant powers  ;)

- Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: jeanwilson on August 10, 2016, 07:46:36 AM

I never thought about Spencerian drills would be a hindrance to copperplate. So if i decide to learn spencerian would it come in my way of learning copperplate? Or is it after a point you adapt and switch accordingly? Sorry if I'm sounding vague.

Thanks,
Ashok

IMHO it is hard to predict what will happen when you hop around between styles. The late Glen Epstein was adamant that students should get to know the tool first. I agree with that, but it can be hard to rein in the student. They all want to get going with the alphabet and words. In my highly unconventional approach, I encouraged beginners to try as many styles as they wished. I would send them home with the Speedball Textbook and tell them to try them all and report back if there was one that felt really good. I had better results when I let students decide which style they wanted to do first.

Our earlier discussion about not hopping back and forth between copperplate and Spencerian was full of agreement. However, if you are itching to try Spencerian, there is no harm in setting your copperplate aside for a few days or even a few weeks - and trying Spencerian.

There is no way to test this, but I have a feeling that if complete beginners did a little more jumping around, it would actually help all the styles. You might become more versatile by stretching all the different "muscles." It's like a dancer who only studies ballet. If - after ten years of ballet - they tried to do hip hop, it might be really hard to get into that particular groove. Someone who starts dance by taking ballet, jazz, tap and hip hop in the first two years, might find it easier to switch between the styles. Maybe not. But I assure you Ashok, if you want to stop and try some Spencerian, it will not hurt your copperplate.

If you want to truly master one or both - then YES, you will need to buckle down and focus on one at a time.

My observation of the master scribes is this. Some of them truly excel -equally- at every style they know. Others are masterful at one style and proficient at all the others. It's very personal. You won't know where you will fall on the spectrum until you spend time with all of them - both pointed pen and broad edge. Other teachers generally agree - there is a lot of crossover skill that you build when you spend time with different styles and tools. Those students who have had one style for 15 years can be very stuck in that style and frustrated when they try something different. So, Ashok, this might be a good time to try Spencerian just to see what happens.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 10, 2016, 08:53:00 AM
Hi Jean,

I buy your analogy between dancers. Loved it. Also I don't remember I ever mentioned that I'm itching to do Spencerian. It all originated on how would i make my hairlines better and confident as Im really struggling on the upstroke. So i tend to rotate the paper. Which Dr. Vitolo also suggest but for consistency. As you rightly said I also don't intend to wait that long that it becomes difficult for me to learn and other script.

But right now I'm really comfortable with copperplate. And before I eventually move to Braid's exemplars or any other which Salman recommends. I would like to have my hand on another script. It sounds a little unrealistic to me. But same was the case when I started copperplate 2 months back.
And as you suggested I will have to find my own way of dealing with both scripts or may be not?

I will definitely announce the day I wish to start my spencerian class :D and I know that experts in this forum will be the one helping me learn.

Thanks Jean for such in depth insights. I'm very lucky and fortunate to have people like you to talk to.

Regards,
Ashok

Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 11, 2016, 09:11:35 AM
Hi Salman,

Next set of Majuscule letters, 'H' 'K' 'Y' 'D' 'B' 'P'.
Have a look. Let met me know what you think.  :-X

Thanks,
Regards,
Ashok

Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: jeanwilson on August 11, 2016, 01:16:02 PM
In addition to dance, another example of being well rounded can be found in sports. Some people only play one sport, which is fine. Others like to play many sports. There can be a lot of cross-over skill between sports. Or remember the football player Lynn Swan who used dance to augment his training. My painting professor required students to read Zen in the Art of Archery by Eugen Herrigel. This was 40 years ago when Zen/zen had not been appropriated by everything and everybody. I would recommend the book to aspiring artists. The way it presents certain elements and principles of archery is very harmonious with penmanship and any other form of art.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 11, 2016, 01:35:56 PM
Hi Jean,

Very true. Never thought of this angle were a different approach would help you achieve something which is not directly connected to it. Would love to read that book you mentioned. Just found it on Amazon. Ordering it tomorrow :D

Thanks again for this valuable piece of information.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: AndyT on August 11, 2016, 01:45:13 PM
Zen in the Art of Archery by Eugen Herrigel

Crikey Jean, that book has been comprehensively debunked as a work of Western romantic pseudo-mysticism which belongs on the same shelf as Carlos Casteneda and Lobsang Rampa.  If it helps, fair enough, but it has precious little to do with Japanese archery as practiced by anyone other than Herrigel - or at least not until he published it.  For a thorough demolition, try this (http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/CriticalZen/The_Myth_of_Zen_in_the_Art_of_Archery.pdf).
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Scarlet Blue on August 11, 2016, 03:22:53 PM
I found that learning to read music helped my focus in other areas.... ha, maybe I should make time for my saxophone again!
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: jeanwilson on August 11, 2016, 07:52:27 PM
Zen in the Art of Archery by Eugen Herrigel

Crikey Jean, that book has been comprehensively debunked as a work of Western romantic pseudo-mysticism which belongs on the same shelf as Carlos Casteneda and Lobsang Rampa.  If it helps, fair enough, but it has precious little to do with Japanese archery as practiced by anyone other than Herrigel - or at least not until he published it.  For a thorough demolition, try this (http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/CriticalZen/The_Myth_of_Zen_in_the_Art_of_Archery.pdf).

Oops. I didn't get the memo.
Although, my line "This was 40 years ago when Zen/zen had not been appropriated by everything and everybody" was included because my intuition told me that any reference to Zen/zen can really annoy people. I imagine there are trendy books today that ponder many of the same topics - but dress them up in different clothes. Zen/zen seems so passe.

The parts I recall in the book about paying attention to your whole body - awareness - breathing - focus ---are all very generic concepts.
I don't think the idea of breathing has been debunked. Even if the book is a complete fabrication - as in fiction - it was something that resonated with me at the time. There were other book assigned. Some were actual fiction. It was part of the whole package - a mentor who offered a variety of methods for learning. The lesson was not so much the specific books, but the idea that you can learn a lot from other disciplines.

I would still recommend the book - as well as reading what the debunkers have to say.
My question to debunkers is always - OK. What do you have to offer in place of what you are debunking?
And then there will be someone who will debunk the debunker's offering.
I find the debunkers to be just as creative and fascinating as the *bunkers.*
What is the opposite of a debunker?

Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: AndyT on August 12, 2016, 05:22:06 AM
Well, as I said if you find it helpful that's fine.  The same goes for Casteneda and Lobsang Rampa, I suppose.  However, I'm an old stick-in-the-mud who rejects the fact free society, and the fact is that Herrigel's account is fanciful - there is absolutely nothing creative about saying that.  I refuse to be drawn on what the opposite of a debunker might be.

The book is very well known and the cause of much rolling of eyes in archery circles - yes, that's another string to my bow, as it were.  (I am, in fact, an Archer (First Class) which isn't nearly as impressive as it sounds).  Some of the concepts do indeed chime with standard shooting practice, but they can be discussed without recourse to such an unreliable "authority".  Quite frankly, if you want mid 20th century Eastern mysticism written by a German but with genuine literary merit, Hermann Hesse is a far better bet.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: jeanwilson on August 12, 2016, 07:00:34 AM
Thank you for clarifying that you have first hand experience with archery. That puts an entirely different spin on your comments. I truly appreciate learning more about the book and why it has been debunked. Hopefully the point I was trying to make about finding crossover between penmanship and other activities has not been lost. Because of my contact with so many other scribes who teach, I am confidant that it is worthwhile to encourage students to see the benefit of understanding that crossover. Are you aware of any other books that address the topic?
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on August 12, 2016, 02:53:36 PM
Hi Ashok - sorry for the delay in my response. I have been rather busy these past few days.

Here is my feedback on the exercises:

In general, you have lost the nice form of the stem stroke you demonstrated in the previous exercise. There are a few good ones there but most aren't that great. It takes a while to get consistent at it so keep plugging away.

Handyman - The H needs to be thinner i.e. the two vertical strokes should be closer together about 1/4th of the current width. Your curved strokes are thinner than the straight ones in the minuscules.

Kingfisher - The squiggle should connect to the stem stroke 2/3rds of the way up the stem stroke. The tiny loop between the two 'arms' should be slightly above the middle of the stem stroke. In the minuscules, the loop of the 'f' is crowding the tittle (i.e. the dot) of the 'i' - how would you fix that?

Yatchman - The stem on the 'Y' is a bit better but still not as good as the previous exercise. The 'Y' is supposed to sit on the base line - it does not have a descender. Only the 'J' and the 'Z' have descenders. The upper turn on the second strokes of the 'h' and the last 'n' are too tight.

Demonstration/Dangerous - The 'D' is a little thinner than that. This letter starts just like an 'L' except it keeps going to form the bowl and continue to the loop. Make the bowl thinner and extend the loop on the left a bit farther. This is a difficult letter.

Boundaries - The stem stroke is getting better now. The upper bowl should be slightly flatter than the bottom one. Also, the tiny loop between the two bowls look better if it is closer to the horizontal. The minuscule 's' is very nice.

Perseverance/Participant - I like this stem stroke. The bowl of the 'P' is the same as the first bowl of the 'B'. The starting loop on the left can be extended a bit more to the left. The slant in the minuscules is inconsistent.

I think you need to spend a bit more time with the stem stroke to get a firm grasp on it. It might be a rhythm thing as you seem to hit your stride towards the later stages and might have been too tentative in the beginning. The remaining letters in the first group should provide the practice you need IMO.

- Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 13, 2016, 01:08:55 AM
In general, you have lost the nice form of the stem stroke you demonstrated in the previous exercise.

I think you need to spend a bit more time with the stem stroke to get a firm grasp on it. It might be a rhythm thing as you seem to hit your stride towards the later stages and might have been too tentative in the beginning. The remaining letters in the first group should provide the practice you need IMO.

Hi Salman,
Absolutely no need to apologise. Understand you would be busy :D

Agree to the stem stroke consistency and the form. Actually I did this exercise without any pre practise and everything in one sitting. Thats the reason you could see the 'B' & 'P' stem strokes better as they were the last letters that i did. So as you rightly said the consistency will only come with more practise.  :-[

In the 'Kingfisher' word, I think the 'f' loop is too wide and should have been ended just 1/3rd below the waist line now it almost half way of 'x' height. And that would help give some breathing space to the 'dot' in 'i'. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I would like to do this round again with proper practise before I move on to other letters in this group.
Having some family time because of the long weekend. So the next practise sheet would be little late to upload.

BTW. Im in love with your new 'Starry Night' oblique.   ;)

Thank you so much Salman,
Regards,
Ashok

Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: AndyT on August 13, 2016, 05:37:23 AM
Are you aware of any other books that address the topic?

No, sorry Jean.  The one thing which guarantees results for archers is repetition ... that's why South Korea are to all intents and purposes unbeatable because they eat, sleep and breathe archery.  Of course assessing progress in a target sport is a straightforward matter; not so easy with calligraphy, but I guess focused repetitive practice is going to pay dividends in any hand-eye co-ordination oriented activity.  That doesn't necessarily mean doing thousands of running ovals, however - never did me any good, anyway.  And it's only part of the story.  Study is at least as important, as some old guy once said.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 18, 2016, 03:51:23 PM
Study is at least as important, as some old guy once said.

Thats so well said AndyT. :D

Thanks,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 21, 2016, 10:04:11 PM
Hi Salman,

Hope you are good. Back from my holidays. Started drill with Minuscules all the say till the Majuscules.
Will be uploading the Group 2 letters of Majuscules later in the day for you to comment.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 22, 2016, 02:35:22 PM
Hi @SMK

Here are the remaining two letters from Group 1 of Majuscules i.e. 'V' 'W'
along with all letters of Group 2 i.e 'A' 'C' 'E' 'G' 'M' 'N' 'O' 'Q' 'U' 'X'. I have attached these jpegs in two mails,
since we have limitation on uploads.

Awaiting your feedback on them.

Thanks,
Regards
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 22, 2016, 02:38:53 PM
Hi Salman.

Group 2 remaining letters.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on August 25, 2016, 06:02:41 PM
Hi Ashok - I realize my workshop notes on Majuscules are not detailed and serve as a poor guide when used on their own. I would recommend following Baird's instructions for these. I know it is a departure from our 'method' but it will be a while before I get around to writing better material for the majuscules.

Here is my feedback on the work submitted:

V - the bottom of the 'V' is too wide. You will have a much better 'V' if you start like you have done in the 'W' and make the top a bit wider. The two 'e's in Verseman are too slanted while the 's' is too upright. This created a rather messy crowd in the first part of the word.

W - The 3rd 'W' in the top line is the best. The last one would have been good but the two counters are of different sizes.

A - The 'A' is good. Try to make the loop rounder.

C - There are 3 ovals in the 'C'. The main 'C' shape, the rounded over part at the end and the lead-in stroke. These three should be at the same slant. The last curled over part is falling over to the right in your examples.

E - This is much better. You should make the last bit of the 'C' similar to what you have done here. Start the shade of the lower bowl a bit later - you start it while still inside the little loop.

G - The overall shape is good. Start the shaded stem stroke at or a little below the 2/3 height - yours are a tad too tall.

M - This is a difficult letter to get right. The hairline strokes are more slanted which allows the shaded strokes to be aligned with the letter slant of 55 degrees. Also, the shaded stroke don't have a curve. The pen moves slightly to the right at the end as in the end of the shaded strokes for 'i', 'l', 't' etc.

N - The overall shape is good. The shaded stroke should have a slight curve to it and the shades should start and end a bit sooner. This is a delicate letter and very easy to mess up.

O / Q - Both of these are too rounded. The left side should be the same as the 'C'. You have inconsistent slant in 'Quadrant'. The first stroke of the 'u' is joining the second too soon - notice the difference in slants of the joining hairlines of the two 'i's in the 'u' and between the 'u' and the 'a'.

U - The first stroke is joining the second one way too early. It should be at or just above the 1/3 mark above the base line.

X - The shade should be heaviest in the top half of the stroke. You got it in the 'Xanthous' but not in any of the practice ones. The first stroke of the  minuscule 'u' is once again joining the second stroke too soon.

- Salman

Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 28, 2016, 03:52:49 AM
I would recommend following Baird's instructions for these.

Hi Salman,

Sincere apologies for delay in reply. Compared your Majuscules with my practise sheets and looks like I need to redo it again.
Appreciate you taking time from your busy schedule for the much needed feedback.

Also if you could help me find Baird's Instructions for practise.

Thanks,
Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on August 28, 2016, 09:23:14 PM
Hi Ashok - here is the link: Baird's Lessons (http://www.zanerian.com/BairdLessons.html). The majuscules begin at lesson 6.

- Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 28, 2016, 09:43:36 PM
Hi Salman,

Thanks for sharing. Really appreciate. Excited as ever to start this.  :D

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on August 28, 2016, 10:48:34 PM
You are welcome Ashok. Please take the time to read the instructions - it is a bit tough to make them out but it is well worth the effort.

S.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 28, 2016, 11:12:49 PM
That would be even more fun to crack it. Will definitely go through the instructions before I get on to my practice desk. Let me see if I can post something tonight.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on September 05, 2016, 04:56:30 AM
Hi Salman.

Working on this ambitious project for a friend of mine since a week.
Used Gouache for the first time. Found the flow of colour little difficult but i guess it was the thickness that caused it.
Thought of sharing the WIP for everyone to see and comment.
Will post the final version once its ready. :D

Having fun with copperplate.
- Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on September 05, 2016, 09:34:31 PM
What a lovely project Ashok. This is one of my favourite poems. I have been meaning to write this too but never got around to it. I will be looking forward to seeing the finished piece. It looks good.

- Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on September 05, 2016, 10:29:32 PM
This is one of my favourite poems. I have been meaning to write this too but never got around to it.
- Salman

Hi Salman,
Thanks for the kind words. Its the biggest poem I'm writing. And would love to see you write this, will be a good learning. Hoping to complete this week if work permits.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Rednaxela on September 06, 2016, 12:59:26 AM
Terrific work Ashok!
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on September 06, 2016, 02:52:43 AM
Thanks @Rednaxela. Glad you liked it :D

Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: flummoxed on September 06, 2016, 04:04:29 AM
Ashok, your progress and the dedicated practice you've put in is wonderful!

It is a nice reminder for those of us (finger pointed at me) who've been procrastinating about regular hours with our drills and script work.

I'd definitely recommend this thread be pinned as a guideline to all newcomers as a way to think about benefits of regular practice.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on September 06, 2016, 04:25:19 AM
I'd definitely recommend this thread be pinned as a guideline to all newcomers as a way to think about benefits of regular practice.

Hi @flummoxed,
Really happy and motivated with those kind words :D
I would be the happiest person if my thread in anyway would help members on this forum.
Infact I had guided new comers to my thread when they wished to see my work.

Thanks again,
- Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on September 07, 2016, 02:24:48 PM
Hi Salman,

Till I finish my ambitious project. Here's a small composition I tried within tight spacing.
My judgement went a little off and few letters sort of overlap, but I quite like the overall compact look.
Happy to hear your valuable comments.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on September 08, 2016, 02:51:54 AM
That is a nicely done script Ashok. I would have liked to see the overlapped lines moved a bit to the left or right to avoid the 'collisions' but the general look is nice.

What x-height did you use for this?

S.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on September 08, 2016, 03:36:40 AM
What x-height did you use for this?

Hi salman,

Had done a pencil rough before I started with pen. But still I misjudged the spacing. :(
I used 6mm as 'x' height for this composition.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on September 08, 2016, 05:56:04 PM
Hi Salman,

I think I've completed the project that I started. I'm open to suggestions / Ideas if this could be improved in any manner. So feel free.
Have also attached close-up snippets to the detailed work. Hope you like it. :D

Thanks,
Regards,
- Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on September 10, 2016, 02:00:52 PM
It looks nice Ashok. There are always things that can be done differently but it is a winner if you and your friend are happy with it :-)

- Salman

Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on September 10, 2016, 02:43:47 PM
There are always things that can be done differently...

Thanks Salman, I agree and would love to know if you had anything specific on your mind. Any suggestion or ideas. I had few thoughts before I started but eventually chose to go this route.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on September 11, 2016, 12:09:44 AM
The thing that stands out most to me is the irregular indentation. It is neither centred nor does it follow the staggered pattern introduced in the first 4 lines.

The inter-line spacing is a bit too tight for my liking too. Lines that long should have generous spacing between them. The 2 x-heights you have between lines is all taken up by the Majuscules (and each line has at least one).

The flourishing on the title can also be improved. There are too many closely overlapping curves that cross each other at acute angles. Also, the axes through the loops are all over the place. The eye doesn't know where to go and is left with a sense of too much random movement IMO.

These are all just my opinions. I share them in the spirit of helpful critique.

Regards,
Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on September 11, 2016, 12:37:14 AM
The thing that stands out most to me is the irregular indentation.
The inter-line spacing is a bit too tight for my liking too.
The flourishing on the title can also be improved. Also, the axes through the loops are all over the place.
These are all just my opinions. I share them in the spirit of helpful critique.

Regards,
Salman

Hi Salman,

Many thanks and appreciate your time for those valuable comments.
Completely agree with all you say. I had a little tough time planning this project like -
Since the poem was too long. I had gone for a bigger paper, But I didn't want to compromise on the size of the script as I thought it would reduce impact. So the inter-line spacing is tight. So if I had kept 2x height between lines the last para would run onto another page. But I agree a more generous spacing would had a different impact.
If you see my initial WIP I had something else in mind. More like a ornamentally written 'IF' but during practise realised that I wont be able to pull that off. Hence went with broad pen with the flourishing that I'been doing. I tend to go overboard with flourishing and need to control that. Would appreciate if you have any reference to share with me.

Apologies Salman but didn't understand the point marked in Blue.

Thanks again,
Regards
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: jeanwilson on September 11, 2016, 07:48:57 AM
The thing that stands out most to me is the irregular indentation.
The inter-line spacing is a bit too tight for my liking too.
The flourishing on the title can also be improved. Also, the axes through the loops are all over the place.
These are all just my opinions. I share them in the spirit of helpful critique.

Regards,
Salman

<<snip>>
But I didn't want to compromise on the size of the script as I thought it would reduce impact. <<snip>>
 I tend to go overboard with flourishing and need to control that. Would appreciate if you have any reference to share with me.

Apologies Salman but didn't understand the point marked in Blue.

Thanks again,
Regards
Ashok

I don't think you lose any impact at all when you write smaller - as long as the writing is well executed. Tiny writing - or anything miniature - is wildly exciting when done well. It is difficult to do well and that makes it all the more precious.

I think the comment in blue refers to the axis - or the imaginary line - that runs down the center of an oval (or the spine of the fish, if you see fish in flourishes) Traditional flourishing has a very specific set of recommendations that someone can probably pull up and post. They include the angle of the axis and how and where to cross lines.

I thought the style of your flourishing was like the contemporary flourishing of Diane von Arx. If you Google her, you will see images of perfectly executed traditional flourishes as well as flourishing that looks a lot like yours. She was invited by Donald Jackson to create some pages in the St. John's Bible and she did all the lettering in the books that list the donors who contributed to the project so she's one of the rock stars in the scribal world. She is an excellent teacher of flourishing, both contemporary and traditional. Her contemporary flourishing has some guidelines. It is not just random swirls. But, it is helpful to recognize which style you are going for.

When you mix broad edge with pointed pen styles - you have to have an element that makes them come together. Contemporary flourishing is a reasonable choice. Your overall layout will determine how you create compatibility in your elements. Since your flourishing is contemporary - irregular indentation was another reasonable choice. Often times, irregular positioning of lines can be very distracting. Other times it can be very organic and work very well.
You really only have 5 choices in line position:
flush left
flush right
centered
justified (three ways to do this)
irregular
I guess there are more - like spiral...borders...what else?

You don't just make choices on what to do based on what is easy.
You have to integrate all the choices and decide how they are going to work together.
And - at the end of the day - there is a huge component -which is- your personal taste. Some of the work that I recognize as stellar in the design and execution is still not to my liking.

So, Salman is wise to include that *these are just his opinions*
and I will say it as well...these are just my opinions.

Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on September 11, 2016, 11:54:15 AM
Hi @jeanwilson,

Thank you so much for adding to this discussion. Much appreciate.
This will definitely help me plan my next 'BIG' project efficiently.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on September 12, 2016, 04:12:35 PM
Ashok - as Jean explained, I was referring to the axes (plural of axis) of the various ovals in the flourishing. 'Slant' would probably have been a better word :-)

I must say I admire your attitude towards both learning and exploration. Your openness to critique is admirable. I have no doubt you will accomplish great things with an attitude like that.

- Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on September 13, 2016, 10:38:15 PM
Hi Salman,
Many thanks for the kind words and encouragement. It really means the world coming from you. :D

Regards,
-Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on September 16, 2016, 05:51:42 PM
I would recommend following Baird's instructions...

Hi Salman,

Initially you had shown me two exemplars, one of Baird's and other of Zaner's. Out of which you choose Baird's instructions to follow.
You had any specific reason to choose Baird over Zaner?

Just curious  :-\

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on September 17, 2016, 12:18:36 AM
Nothing particularly special. Baird's style appeals to me a bit more and I like the way he goes through the lessons. Many of Zaner's students went on to become masters of the hand so his exemplar is a good one to learn from too.

- Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on September 17, 2016, 12:32:12 AM
Hi Salman,

Thanks again Salman. I felt the same when I was reading through the detailed explanations on the Majuscules of Baird's. But I couldn't find any sort of Zaner's writeup other than one Image on IAMPETH site. Couldn't decided if its good for a beginner like me to learn from. Attached is what I found of Zaner's.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on September 17, 2016, 12:52:25 AM
That is an good exemplar but has some technically difficult subtleties like the gentle curve in the ascenders and descenders. It takes a great deal of control to get it right so the letter is visually balanced. I prefer starting out with the straight strokes for ascenders in the initial stages....and its no fun trying to explain that minuscule 'x' either.

Isn't it good to know that even someone of Zaner's calibre sometimes got the 'r' right on the 4th attempt :-)

- Salman

Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on September 17, 2016, 05:25:42 AM
Didn't notice the finer points till you mentioned Salman. I was observing those three 'r' for so long and all looked the same. When I sort of overlapped them on to each other. I found out there is barely any difference as compared to the final one.

Thanks,
Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on September 17, 2016, 08:42:01 PM
I would be happy with any of these 'r's but of course Zaner couldn't settle for just any old 'r' could he.

Here's what I see: the shade starts too soon and is too thick on the first one, there is a little squiggle on the right side towards the end of the second one (it doesn't look like much but maybe he felt it more when writing it) and the third one doesn't go high enough.

S.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on September 22, 2016, 02:51:58 AM
Hi Salman,

Hope you are good. After having some fun with few interesting projects for my friends I'm back to learning desk with 'Baird's' Majuscules.

So as compared to your notes I found it a bit difficult to understand Baird's explanation. So the attached practise sheets combine bits and pieces of what I understood but mostly studying the proportions of each Capital letter from the exemplar.

Waiting for your detailed feedback.

Thanks,
Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on September 22, 2016, 04:30:16 AM
Good to see you back at it Ashok. I will upload the majuscules in the tutorials in due time but we will continue here until then.

You have done a good job of emulating the shape and weight. A couple of things I could see are:

1. The lean-in shade is supposed to be a compound curve - like the second stroke of the 'n' except the entry hairline is more rounded and starts way back there and the exit hairline goes up to meet the start of the downstroke. The shaded part is actually the same as the compound curve you have learned so well in the minuscules.

2. This is a minor one but I would like you to start seeing this. If you notice, Baird doesn't always start his hairlines in the Majuscules from the base line. This created an impression of a very fine connection. It also takes the stress out of making a near perfect join every time. Try it.

You can correct these easily as go through the Z and the H.

- Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on September 22, 2016, 07:23:42 AM
2. This is a minor one but I would like you to start seeing this. If you notice, Baird doesn't always start his hairlines in the Majuscules from the base line. This created an impression of a very fine connection. It also takes the stress out of making a near perfect join every time. Try it.

Hi Salman,

Thanks for the detailed feedback and appreciate your valuable time. I was completely not aware of that minor detail you pointed out. And now I see that its little higher that the baseline. Wow :D. I have completed my 'H' & 'K' but let me redo the letters with above change.

And are you saying that you have reworked on your Majuscule tutorials? You have already shared the one you had if you remember.

Regards,
- Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on September 22, 2016, 08:24:56 PM
I have not yet done it but I do plan on reworking the examples as I am not satisfied with the quality of the lettering. I am in two minds over using an example from one of past masters but am not sure about it.

S.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on September 22, 2016, 11:18:54 PM
Hi Salman,

Im in no position to comment on this. But from my journey till now working on your tutorials. I quite liked your style and would love to work on them. And from what I mentioned yesterday, if Baird's exemplar would be explained in your style it would be really easy to understand.

Just a thought. Apologies if I had said anything wrong.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on September 23, 2016, 01:33:53 AM
Hi Salman,

In the meanwhile till I post another round of Baird's Majuscules. Here is another para I did yesterday keeping in mind the last feedback on alignment from the poem 'IF'.

Comments and critiques are welcome from everyone.

Thanks,
-Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on October 02, 2016, 11:13:09 AM
Hi Salman,

Here are another set of Baird's Majuscules worksheet.
Awaiting your comments and feedback.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on October 03, 2016, 01:57:00 PM
The Z and the H are quite good Ashok. Only a couple of finer points.

On the Z, the last compound looking curve has a shade that is almost vertical in Baird's examples. This opens up the base a bit and the overall letter looks better balanced.

The crossbar of the 'H' crosses at 1/2 the height of the letter - yours comes down almost 2/3rds of the way.

You might want to add a couple of H's and Z's to your next exercise. The K and N are both tricky to balance. The 'N' is my nemesis :-)

- Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on October 04, 2016, 08:31:28 AM
Hi Salman,

Many thanks for your comments. Point noted on the 'Z' and 'H'
Will have more practise for these letters. I have finished 'K' & 'N'
Will upload them in sometime for you to see.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on October 04, 2016, 10:18:50 AM
Hi Salman,

Here are 'K' & 'N' from Baird's exemplars.
Please have a look.

Regards,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on October 04, 2016, 07:10:51 PM
Looks good Ashok. The third 'K' in the top line is best IMO as the shade on the 'leg' is most balanced. The 'N' can be just a tiny wider but Baird's N's were a bit narrow so you are not far off.

For the next exercise, I would like to see Z, H, K, N, A and M.

Regards,
Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on October 05, 2016, 04:42:22 AM
Hi Salman,

Thanks for taking time to comment.
Just to be clear, you want me to work on the 6 letters again in groups of 5 right? Or do you want to see them in one page.

Regards,
Ashok

Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on October 05, 2016, 02:04:59 PM
Hi Ashok - the groups of 5 is for your practice time. The process trains one to evaluate the letter forms and get a good handle on the structure. I just want to see the result of your practice i.e. the best example of a word with each of the letters (6 words). They don't have to be done all in one go or one page - you can cut and paste the best ones.

Salman
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on October 05, 2016, 02:18:51 PM
Thanks for the clarification Salman. :D
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on October 16, 2016, 03:20:49 PM
A little overdone flourishing on copperplate. Having fun. :D
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on November 24, 2016, 03:07:39 AM
Its been a while. So here's a get well song written for Cora.

-Ashok

Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: prasad on November 24, 2016, 03:23:41 AM
Awesome job Ashok  :)
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on November 24, 2016, 03:33:16 AM
Thanks for the kind words @prasad :D
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Rednaxela on November 24, 2016, 03:24:12 PM
Fantastic @ash0kgiri, so beautifully done!
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on November 24, 2016, 03:33:25 PM
Thanks @Rednaxela. :D
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on December 05, 2016, 01:08:09 PM
Here's todays drill sheet. Somehow like writing in tight spaces and composing lines.
Suggestions and critiques welcome. :D

- Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: prasad on December 05, 2016, 11:12:52 PM
Awesome stuff Ashok,
What white ink are you using?

Prasad
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on December 06, 2016, 05:06:17 AM
Thanks for the kind words @prasad.
Actual artwork is on white written with walnut ink. I just made it reverse while posting. :D

- Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: prasad on December 06, 2016, 05:31:58 AM
Ahh ok.  Photoshop to the rescue :)
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on December 06, 2016, 05:48:15 AM
Not really. Did it on phone editing software.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on January 05, 2017, 09:56:06 AM
New year practice and teachings for the young generation.
Since Im trying my hand on spencerian also. I thought I would mix the two. So dear members as always critique/comments are most welcome.

-Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on January 24, 2017, 02:27:08 PM
Here's one more with spencerian and copperplate.
Having fun :d

-Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on January 24, 2017, 03:50:29 PM
Your flourishes are becoming elegant and restrained Ashok - nice lettering.

S.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on January 24, 2017, 03:55:27 PM
Hi Salman,

Thanks for the kind words. Since Im doing a bit of practice on spencerian hand. I try and mix both scripts for my practice. :D

-Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: jeanwilson on January 25, 2017, 07:20:27 AM
I clicked on page one of this thread to refresh my memory of what your very first post looked like and IMHO your progress is fantastic. It reminded me to mention that everyone should keep a random sampling of their work, in a file folder, in chronological order to review from time to time. It is nice to have tangible evidence of progress. Great work Ashok. Maybe this is already in one of your posts, but can you give us some idea of the amount of time that you have spent on your penmanship? Do you ever skip a day of practice? How much time each day do you devote to practice. Is it difficult for you to squeeze in the time for practice or is it more difficult to squeeze in the other obligations in your life?
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on January 25, 2017, 09:35:54 AM
Hi Jean,

Good to hear from you again :D And thanks for the kind words and guidance. Without which it would be impossible.

Day before I had exactly thought of creating a New thread showing my progress from the day I started my journey in Pointed Pen. I had already collated half the work for upload. Will post them in couple of days. I really liked the pointers you mentioned and that will definitely help others in their journey. I will try and put forth all the points in as much detail I can. It will be a good idea if it could be an interactive thread.

Let me know if you have any other ideas :D

Thanks,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on January 25, 2017, 03:03:10 PM
Speak your heart out. #seriousaboutcopperplate

-Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: brd4790 on January 25, 2017, 08:38:59 PM
@ash0kgiri nice quote and so beautifully written!  I feel for me as a beginner looking at your work improve over time is so inspirational - some days when practice is hard and I feel like giving up, I'll come to this thread, and it gives me hope that one day just maybe if I work hard then I can produce work as beautiful as yours.
thanks for sharing all of this! I'm looking forward to your before & after thread. :)
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on January 29, 2017, 09:29:30 AM
Hi @brd4790,
Thanks for the kind words. And I'm happy that my thread is off some help to beginners. When I started I was in the same boat as yours but the members here are so kind and helpful that I had more fun than hard work. With learning its also important to enjoy the process and journey.

I'm out to spend some time with my family. I will create the new thread soon. Till then...

Keep writing,
-Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on February 10, 2017, 05:26:24 AM
Friday Practice with Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Pink Art card. Special thanks to @colorsofchrist for this wonderful Oblique give away :D
#seriousaboutcopperplate
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Garima on February 11, 2017, 03:57:59 AM
I am amazed at the effort you've put in @ash0kgiri. Wonderful work!!
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on February 11, 2017, 06:31:18 AM
Hi Garima,
Thanks for the kind words @Garima. Really appreciate. :D

-Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on February 18, 2017, 09:35:25 AM
Valentine day special. #seriousaboutcopperplate

-Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on February 28, 2017, 10:14:15 AM
Here's a Birthday gift for a dear friend. Written on a Handmade paper with Iron Gall ink and Hunt 101 nib, size A2.

-Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Tales from the Nib on February 28, 2017, 05:37:59 PM
How beautifully written is that, just gorgeous Ashok  :)
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on March 01, 2017, 02:48:40 AM
Thanks for the kind words @Tales from the Nib. Really appreciate :D

-Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on March 01, 2017, 04:41:25 PM
Corinthians 13:4-13. LOVE.

Thanks to @sheila247 for this wonderful message :D
Thursday midnight practice.

- Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on March 03, 2017, 02:25:18 PM
Here's a birthday wish for a dear friend.
Done with - Hunt 101 nib & Walnut Ink, Size A4.

Friday Practice.

-Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on March 06, 2017, 02:49:02 PM
#seriousaboutcopperplate
After a long time. Wrote this four lines from a beautiful poem,' Auguries of Innocence', by William Blake'
Pure copperplate style.

@SMK. Kindly have a look. Appreciate your valuable time.

Thanks,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Salman Khattak on March 06, 2017, 06:33:23 PM
Its good to see you putting your script to good use. I am not sure what you meant by having a look though - are you asksing for critique?

S.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on March 06, 2017, 09:06:18 PM
Hi Salman,
As you have seen I been kind of experimenting mixing two scripts in my practise. The majuscules are Spencerian and minuscule in copperplate but with little flourishes. Personally I quite satisfied with the output. But I would also like to know your opinion or suggestions if any as it will help me make some improvements.

I'm still learning and have a long way to go. I will never stop asking for critique as its an important part of the learning process. I want to finish Baird's script what I started. And also learn other calligraphy hand. There's so much more to do. :D

Thanks,
Ashok


Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on March 08, 2017, 09:44:12 AM
Here's a poem that I had written for my friend. Had posted WIP before and this is how it turned out.
Written on Handmade paper, with Gouache, Gillotte 303nib, Size pretty long :D. Used two scripts - Copperplate and Gothic for the header.

- Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on March 17, 2017, 11:05:49 PM
It's raining Birthday's and for me an excuse to latch on to my pen and walnut ink. Here's another to a fellow rider and college friend.

Written on Blue Art card paper. With my favourite Gillotte 303 & walnut ink.

-Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on March 27, 2017, 12:52:11 AM
Friday Practice. Gillotte 303, Walnut Ink.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on April 03, 2017, 03:34:29 PM
Saturday 25th March Practice.
Gillotte 303, Walnut ink
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on April 03, 2017, 03:48:19 PM
Wednesday 29th March Practice.
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on April 03, 2017, 03:53:55 PM
Thursday practice (30th March) with @Garima :D Had a wonderful time.
Hunt101, Walnut Ink.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: ash0kgiri on April 03, 2017, 04:01:26 PM
Sunday 2nd April Practice.
Hunt101, Walnut Ink.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if im WRONG
Post by: Garima on April 04, 2017, 02:01:13 AM
Thursday practice (30th March) with @Garima :D Had a wonderful time.
Hunt101, Walnut Ink.
It was so much fun @ash0kgiri!! We will do it more often! :)
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: Ken Fraser on April 05, 2017, 04:06:04 AM
Ashok :

Congratulations on your impressive progress.

The differences btween Engraver's script and Copperplate (English Roundhand) are worth noting as the two are similar but different. These were written at the same time at the same x height with the same nib for direct comparisons.

The wonderful examples by C P Zaner and Dr J Vitolo are in Engraver's Script.
IMHO the best examples of Copperplate (English Roundhand) are in The Universal Penman by George Bickham.
If you are studying Engraver's script that's fine, but it's better to be aware of the differences between the two.



Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on April 05, 2017, 06:20:12 AM
Hi Ken,
Thank you so much and glad you see some progress. It really means a lot coming from you.
I always thought Copperplate and Engrosser's script is the same. But after seeing what you posted there is quite a difference. So all this while I been referring it wrongly?
I will surely do more study on these two scripts and understand the difference.

Thanks again,
-Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: Ken Fraser on April 05, 2017, 08:38:12 AM
I always thought Copperplate and Engrosser's script is the same. But after seeing what you posted there is quite a difference. So all this while I been referring it wrongly?
Hi Ashok,
Engrosser's Script is an American development of English Roundhand (most commonly know as Copperplate). The most obvious difference is in the letter width. As you can see from my example the Engrosser's lettering takes up more space horizontally at the same x height. Shading tends to be slightly thicker and the loops are more generous.
In Copperplate, hairlines tend to start much lower from the preceding downstrokes than in Engrosser's Script. Compare the link from n to g in both styles and you'll see what I mean; and the same applies throughout.

There is nothing wrong with Engrosser's Script  it's just a different take on the same style. However, the differences are such that it's probably a good idea to stick to one or the other.
 If you're staying with Engrosser's script, examples by either C P Zaner or Dr J Vitolo are probably best.
Here's a section of exemplary English Roundhand from the 18th century. Copperplate doesn't get any better than this.
If you don't already have a copy, buy "The Universal Penman" by George Bickham and be prepared to blow your mind!

Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on April 06, 2017, 04:05:19 AM
Hi Ken,

This makes it quite clear. I been mixing these two styles in my latest practice sheets but not really as per books. I been writing Engrosser's as thats what I have learnt. If you see when I write long paras I write with quite tight line spacing(thats how I like) so there is not always space for generous loop so I keep it flat for letters 'l' 'h' etc. I been following Dr Joe's youtube videos from the very beginning and they are just amazing and I will definitely consider buying "The Universal Penman" by George Bickham soon. :D

Thanks for the valuable information and time to write back.

-Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: Garima on April 09, 2017, 01:24:01 PM
I will definitely consider buying "The Universal Penman" by George Bickham soon. :D
-Ashok

Actually i could have got it today for you to see. You'll find a lot of examples of the open flourishes i was talking about today, in this book. It definitely is worth buying!
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on April 09, 2017, 01:29:25 PM
Oh. You have it. Great. Carry it with you the next time we meet. :D
Thanks as always Garima.

Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on April 15, 2017, 09:52:33 AM
Hi

My Thursday practice. I was quite happy with the overall composition and the shade stroke thickness.
For the first time I used two nibs one is my regular Hunt 101 and the new favourite Hunt Extra Fine 22. I'm surprised by the fine hairlines it gives me :D
Any suggestions, critiques are welcome :D

Keep writing,
-Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: Ken Fraser on April 25, 2017, 09:54:05 AM
Any suggestions, critiques are welcome :D

This is an exceptional piece of writing IMHO.

I normally prefer lines further apart for the avoidance of clashing ascenders and descenders (as in post #230) but your writing here has no problem in this regard. Also, your fine hairline flourishes have been carefully and tastefully considered, adding interest and enhancing the overall effect. You lettering is symmetrical and evenly weighted with good balanced proportions and the overall layout is just right. A delight to behold  ;D
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on April 25, 2017, 10:32:47 PM
This is an exceptional piece of writing IMHO.
Couldn't have started my day any better. Thank you Ken @Ken Fraser. It means a lot coming from you. I'm short of words to express myself.

Thank you again,
-Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on April 25, 2017, 10:53:13 PM
My Tuesday practice.
Nib - Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper.

-Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on May 06, 2017, 02:51:54 AM
Last week practice.
Nib - Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond Paper

-Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on May 06, 2017, 02:53:33 AM
Today's practice sheet.
Nib - Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper.

-Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: Simone Lettering on May 06, 2017, 05:20:44 AM
Ashok :

Congratulations on your impressive progress.

The differences btween Engraver's script and Copperplate (English Roundhand) are worth noting as the two are similar but different. These were written at the same time at the same x height with the same nib for direct comparisons.

The wonderful examples by C P Zaner and Dr J Vitolo are in Engraver's Script.
IMHO the best examples of Copperplate (English Roundhand) are in The Universal Penman by George Bickham.
If you are studying Engraver's script that's fine, but it's better to be aware of the differences between the two.

Ken, thank you for this explanation.
One thing that still confuses me is the title of Dr J Vitolo's e-book: 'Beautiful Art of Engrosser's Script. Script in the Copperplate Style.'
How would you name the style he uses in this e-book?

Regards,
Simone
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: AndyT on May 06, 2017, 06:40:40 AM
@Simone Lettering

Dr Vitolo discusses this in the earlier part of this article (https://www.iampeth.com/lesson/engraver%E2%80%99s-script/demystifying-copperplatespencerian-script-enigma): it won't answer your question, exactly, but it's worth a read.

For what little it's worth, it seems to me that Dr V's approach is the most sensible one, using "copperplate" as a catch-all term for slanted scripts with a regular emphasis on the downstrokes derived from English roundhand, and drawing a distinction between the English tradition and the later American variant.  "Copperplate" is a problematic term since it can mean different things to different people, and in Britain at least it acquired a pejorative undertone thanks to the influence of Edward Johnston and his followers.  Alfred Fairbank, for instance, wrote that "... the engraver's needle ... tended to give to the pupil the letter-forms proper to the burin rather than to the quill" with the heavy implication that it was all downhill from there.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: Simone Lettering on May 06, 2017, 07:46:33 AM
@AndyT

Thanks for the link to Dr Vitolo's article  :D

I now understand that Copperplate means different things to different people.

Vitolo defines Copperplate as a style of scripts including roundhand, Engraver's and Engrosser's script.
And in Ken's example Copperplate is used as another term for English Roundhand only.

Well, I think it is good for us to see that there are different styles and we recognise them!
That's the main point  :)

Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on May 10, 2017, 10:48:16 PM
Yesterdays practice.
Hunt 101 on bond paper & walnut ink.

Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on May 14, 2017, 02:01:18 AM
Friday practice,
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on May 14, 2017, 02:04:38 AM
Saturday Practice.
Hunt 22, Walnut Ink on Bond paper.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on May 19, 2017, 11:31:18 AM
Tuesday practice with Hunt 22 & Walnut Ink.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on May 19, 2017, 01:15:27 PM
Hello Everyone,

Here is my last weeks project. I have rewritten Rudyard Kipling's 'IF' in my current style of writing.
It's 5ft tall. Written with Hunt 101, Walnut Ink.

Hope you all like it.

@Garima till I show you in actual. :D

Thanks,
Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: cejohnson on May 19, 2017, 02:07:41 PM
Hello Everyone,

Here is my last weeks project. I have rewritten Rudyard Kipling's 'IF' in my current style of writing.
It's 5ft tall. Written with Hunt 101, Walnut Ink.

Hope you all like it.

@Garima till I show you in actual. :D

Thanks,
Ashok

This is a spectacular piece of work and a nice Kipling piece to display your talent. Thank you for sharing this. Seeing all you are doing keeps me inspired to work at a daily practice.

Thanks again Ashok  ;)
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on May 19, 2017, 03:02:06 PM
Hi @cejohnson,

Thank you so much for your kind words. And I'm happy that to hear that the work here inspires you to practice more.

Keep writing,
-Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: Erica McPhee on May 19, 2017, 10:20:33 PM
Beautiful, beautiful work!
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on May 19, 2017, 11:02:13 PM
Thank you so much Erica. It means a lot coming from you. :D
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: Salman Khattak on May 20, 2017, 02:13:48 PM
Wow - very nicely done Ashok. This is a lovely piece of work.

S.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on May 20, 2017, 03:05:00 PM
Thank you so much Salman. It wouldn't be possible without your support :D

-Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: InkyFingers on May 20, 2017, 11:10:16 PM
You gotta be kidding...that's monstrous beauty.

Bravo!
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: Simone Lettering on May 21, 2017, 02:13:25 AM
@ash0kgiri  This is really stunning!
I already saw the piece on Instagram, but now I could take a much closer look at it  :D
Thanks for sharing it here too. Very inspiring  :)
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on May 21, 2017, 02:19:38 AM
...that's monstrous beauty.

Thank you so much @InkyFingers. I was anyways obsessed with writing long para now I'm wanting to write them in big scale.
Already have one on my mind. This one will be more or equally big :D

-Ashok
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on May 21, 2017, 05:57:51 AM
@ash0kgiri
I already saw the piece on Instagram, but now I could take a much closer look at it  :D

Thank you so much Simone and you are most welcome.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 11, 2017, 05:56:32 AM
22nd May practice.
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 11, 2017, 06:04:26 AM
25th May
Hunt 101, Walnut ink on Bond Paper.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 11, 2017, 06:32:28 AM
Yum Yum Exchange 2017
Hunt 101, 22, Walnut Ink, Pilot Parallel 3.8mm on Bond paper.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 11, 2017, 06:48:56 AM
31st May
Hunt 101, Walnut ink on Bond Paper.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 11, 2017, 06:53:19 AM
01st June
Hunt 101, Walnut ink on Bond Paper.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 13, 2017, 08:55:40 AM
01st June '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 13, 2017, 08:58:54 AM
04th June '17
Birthday wish to a dear friend who introduced me to Pointed Pen Calligraphy.
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 13, 2017, 09:01:51 AM
07th June '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond Paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 13, 2017, 09:13:46 AM
09th June '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond Paper.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 13, 2017, 09:19:12 AM
10th June '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 13, 2017, 09:21:06 AM
11th June '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 13, 2017, 09:25:15 AM
12th June '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on June 13, 2017, 09:28:26 AM
13th June '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 05, 2017, 06:18:01 AM
14th June '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 05, 2017, 06:21:37 AM
15th June '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 05, 2017, 06:23:04 AM
16th June '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 05, 2017, 06:28:13 AM
17th June '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 05, 2017, 06:29:25 AM
20th June '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 05, 2017, 06:33:59 AM
23rd June '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 05, 2017, 06:36:37 AM
25th June '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on July 05, 2017, 09:05:40 AM
28th June '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 22, 2017, 05:58:28 AM
09th July '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 22, 2017, 06:10:40 AM
16th July '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 22, 2017, 06:25:16 AM
18th July '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Also the biggest 'x' height I have written on close to 1 inch. :D
It really help identify your flaws and learn. Give it a try for sure.
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on August 22, 2017, 06:53:02 AM
22nd July '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on January 29, 2018, 06:45:35 AM
Hello everyone,

Sorry that I was away for a while due to work commitments. But I never stopped practicing,
Here is from were I left.

24th July '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on January 29, 2018, 06:48:28 AM
27th July '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on January 29, 2018, 06:50:14 AM
02nd August '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on January 29, 2018, 06:51:29 AM
03rd August '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on January 29, 2018, 06:53:56 AM
06th August '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on January 29, 2018, 06:55:20 AM
08th August '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on January 29, 2018, 06:57:35 AM
13th August '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper
Title: Re: Please RIGHT if I'm WRONG - Copperplate
Post by: ash0kgiri on January 29, 2018, 07:00:25 AM
14th August '17
Hunt 101, Walnut Ink on Bond paper