Author Topic: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder  (Read 24043 times)

Offline Brad franklin

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Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
« Reply #45 on: May 25, 2014, 09:39:52 AM »
Isn't it wonderful  ;D

Offline Milonguera

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Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2014, 08:51:15 AM »
Your discussion about history and the contrast between oblique and straight nib holders is very interesting and informative, and thanks, Ladies.

Several things struck me about watching the video, however. 

1--How he holds the pen, it appears, right on the flange.
2--The absence of squared tops and bottoms--almost intentional points.  (Maybe that's coz he's a guy...   ;D)
3--The tiny light on the pen.  I think I'm going to add that to the inventions desired page. 

Any thoughts or comments about the first 2? 
Debbie

Offline AndyT

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Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2014, 10:34:13 AM »
Ah.  I've only just got around to watching the video in the first post of this thread, and it's not the one I thought it would be.  What I expected was this:

Oblique Vs Straight Holder

Highly recommended.  Towards the end he brings up some not so obvious points about the relationship between the angle of the pen relative to the paper (as opposed to the slant of the letters) and the effect that has on the ease of splaying the nib tines and the speed of snap.  I still don't understand his antipathy to oblique holders for copperplate really, because surely the workaround is simply to hold the pen at a steeper angle, but it's an interesting video nonetheless.  Besides, some of you seem to enjoy seeing him.

Offline Estefa

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Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2014, 01:29:33 PM »
Your discussion about history and the contrast between oblique and straight nib holders is very interesting and informative, and thanks, Ladies.

Several things struck me about watching the video, however. 

1--How he holds the pen, it appears, right on the flange.
2--The absence of squared tops and bottoms--almost intentional points.  (Maybe that's coz he's a guy...   ;D)
3--The tiny light on the pen.  I think I'm going to add that to the inventions desired page. 

Any thoughts or comments about the first 2?

Thanks for reviving this thread ;)!

Just my two cents regarding your questions 1) I do that too I thought it was the normal way to hold a pen, but I guess everybody does it how it's most comfortable? And 2) I'd say, that is his personal style, he also uses unusual shading in his Capitals


Ah.  I've only just got around to watching the video in the first post of this thread, and it's not the one I thought it would be.  What I expected was this:

Oblique Vs Straight Holder

Highly recommended.  Towards the end he brings up some not so obvious points about the relationship between the angle of the pen relative to the paper (as opposed to the slant of the letters) and the effect that has on the ease of splaying the nib tines and the speed of snap.  I still don't understand his antipathy to oblique holders for copperplate really, because surely the workaround is simply to hold the pen at a steeper angle, but it's an interesting video nonetheless.  Besides, some of you seem to enjoy seeing him.

Thanks for posting this, Andy! And I admit, I also still don't understand his antipathy against the Oblique for C.. I just saw in the first video, that he really holds the paper in a nearly 90 degree angle to his body, and from time to time turns the paper. I understand his points about the T and Q as he explained in your video, but I must admit that's not such a big argument for me regarding all the other points that for me make it easier to write Copperplate-ish. I mean, we shouldn't forget that ALL attempts at writing C. are workarounds, as it was historically written with a quill (broad nib possible to make square bold lines as in T, but also flexible, so you could write the capital stem with a shade)

Well, but his writing is so gorgeous, I don't care ;)! I just will not switch to a straight holder for Copperplate.

And I thought anyhow that the Oblique holder was an English invention?? Just never very successfull in Europe for whatever reason? Would be interesting to know more.
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Offline AndyT

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Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2014, 06:06:37 PM »
And I thought anyhow that the Oblique holder was an English invention?? Just never very successfull in Europe for whatever reason? Would be interesting to know more.

Haha!  Yes, strange as it seems the earliest known patent was registered in London in 1831 by Messrs Mordan and Brockedon, who can also claim a patent for a cranked oblique nib in the same year.  Despite a few enthusiastic reviews the latter never seems to have found a very large market, and as for the holder the idea the idea sank without trace as far as I know.  Most likely such contrivances were regarded as expensive and gimmicky crinkum-crankums: after all the mass market steel pen trade was in its infancy and most people would have learned to write with a quill, so maybe the idea simply arrived ahead of its time and withered.   The offset copperplate nib has survived, of course.

My guess is that the American developers of the oblique holder came up with the idea independently, quite possibly several times.  It wasn't until 1885 that the familiar pressed brass flange with no ferrule was patented, just as the Golden Age was really getting going; earlier designs were either cumbersome or ink traps which probably hindered acceptance.  As Christopher has said before, documentation on this subject is very thin on the ground indeed, so for the most part we're left with conjecture.

Offline Faeleia

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Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
« Reply #50 on: June 08, 2014, 03:02:34 AM »
Guys, I think you may be interested in this. It's an interview with Paul, and he says more things in detail with regards to  the oblique/straight holder...

 Paul Antonio interview

And to be honest, some nibs are quite annoying to use with the oblique. I can think of all the G nibs now.. But maybe it's my holder, but I usually find it hard to put pressure AND keep a nice loop with stiffer nibs, it always wants to go wonky, creating some really thin swells or ugly shapes with thicker swells.. The oblique holder takes some direct pressure away, unlike the straight holder, so I like the oblique for sensitive nibs. I find the straight holder much nicer to control too.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 08:39:18 PM by Erica McPhee »

Offline Erica McPhee

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Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2014, 07:11:36 PM »
The thread on making a custom tool has been moved here: Custom Tool to Demonstrate Splitting Tines   :D
Truly, Erica
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Offline Brad franklin

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Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
« Reply #52 on: August 01, 2014, 11:48:52 PM »
http://www.alumind.com/article/30-years-scribe/


check out the bottom of page there is an voice interview.

Offline Ken Fraser

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Re: Paul Antonio video
« Reply #53 on: August 07, 2014, 05:17:41 PM »
Regarding Copperplate, I noticed that a different weight seems also to be a difference between American an European versions of this hand (generally speaking of course) Europeans tend to write it less bold. Maybe that has to do with the Engrosser's or Engraver's Hand which is wholly American, as far as I see, and is much bolder than the historical Roundhands for example in the Universal Penman?

An excellent evaluation of the main difference  :D

Offline Estefa

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Re: Paul Antonio video - Oblique v. straight holder
« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2014, 06:21:17 AM »
Thank you, Ken!!

Also thanks to you, Brad, for the interview quite interesting!

And Felicia, also thanks for the interview! It's always fascinating to hear the different stories how people lived their journey through calligraphy.

I still think the whole straight or oblique holder thing is fairly subjective though :).
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