Author Topic: Flourishes & plagiarism  (Read 12915 times)

Offline unscripted

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Flourishes & plagiarism
« on: October 26, 2015, 08:22:37 AM »
I'm just starting to dip my toes in flourishing for capital letters. Been looking at old exemplars and contemporary examples by some famous and some not-so-famous calligraphers. Led me thinking...if I saw a word I liked, and copied it and posted it online as something I did, is it wrong? Does this constitute as plagiarism? If you had created the flourishing, would you be flattered or upset?

On the same topic of flourishing, do you try hard to create your own design?

Offline Starlee

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Re: Flourishes & plagiarism
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2015, 10:20:39 AM »
More experienced members will likely step in and provide some sager advice, but here is my opinion, although it may be a bit naive. If you are copying master penmen from the golden era and earlier, then I don't think it really counts as plagiarism as the work has been out there for so long and so many people are influenced and use them as exemplars as it is. I think it also matters to how much you are replicating the piece. If it's exact, then maybe there might be an issue. If you are influenced and use certain elements but make it your own, then the line becomes more grey as art is rarely created from scratch without external influence. Regarding modern calligraphers, it can be a little more touchy as they may take offense. It is their livelihood.  The most courteous and respectful thing to do would be to give credit to the artist that influenced your piece. That said, if something is posted on the net for all to see, especially on things like Instagram, then the onus is on the calligrapher. If they don't want it copied, they probably shouldn't be posting it. I am constantly coming up with my own flourish designs...for better or worse. It is definitely a work in progress. If people are influenced, I think it is the best feeling in the world.
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Offline ericp

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Re: Flourishes & plagiarism
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2015, 11:13:38 AM »
I'm just starting to dip my toes in flourishing for capital letters. Been looking at old exemplars and contemporary examples by some famous and some not-so-famous calligraphers. Led me thinking...if I saw a word I liked, and copied it and posted it online as something I did, is it wrong? Does this constitute as plagiarism? If you had created the flourishing, would you be flattered or upset?
Whatever you do, do NOT make a font out of anyone's handwriting   :o  :(  >:(  :(  :o  :-\  :-X  :-[

Offline Milonguera

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Re: Flourishes & plagiarism
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2015, 11:22:08 AM »
It may be a controversial opinion, but I take comfort in the Picasso quote, "Good artists copy, great artists steal."  Even if you are tracing someone else's work there will be some variations because YOU are doing it and not the other person--and by the very nature that you are a different person, your flourishes will be different.  Copying is how we learn and develop our own ideas. 

Here's another great quote, this one by Jim Jarmusch: “Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don’t bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: “It’s not where you take things from - it’s where you take them to."
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Offline ericp

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Re: Flourishes & plagiarism
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2015, 01:14:54 PM »
Great Jarmusch quote!

However, in the recent legal outcome regarding "Blurred Lines", it is sad to see that creating some work of art that is clearly an homage to another artist (in this case, Marvin Gaye), is not seen as homage but as plagiarism, and solely for financial reasons.

If it's recognizable, you may sue.  Very sad state of affairs.

Offline Inked botanicals

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Re: Flourishes & plagiarism
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2015, 01:51:32 PM »
if I saw a word I liked, and copied it and posted it online as something I did, is it wrong? Does this constitute as plagiarism? If you had created the flourishing, would you be flattered or upset?

On the same topic of flourishing, do you try hard to create your own design?

For me (and just for me, not in legal terms) it would depend on: "I did it" means "I actually wrote it by hand with my own pen and ink" or "I invented it and I am first person in the world in making such flourish"? I would not mind and I would be flattered if people saw my flourishes as something worth of copying, but I would be upset if they tried to make people think it was their own invention and so, as I obviously do it as well, they would think mine is the copy. So, giving credit for your inspiration is always a nice thing to do.

Around me, I see very often people that get angry and tell in their facebook and instagram that someone has copied them. Last time, just this october, a girl was offended because another girl had copied her "awesome invention" she did for a late-summer party. It was a calligraphy cake topper. Now tell me you have not seen that idea never before this summer  ???
Alba.

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Offline Erica McPhee

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Re: Flourishes & plagiarism
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2015, 11:06:49 AM »
This is a really interesting question. I think it also depends upon the type of flourishing. So for general flourishing that goes along with calligraphy itself, I don't see that as copyrightable for the most part. There are only so many ways to flourish an h or p or y. But...

I do think if someone creates a unique way of flourishing, it is copying to replicate it. I don't know if I would go so far as to say plagiarism unless it was "exactly" the same. For example, I like to do these really swirly flourishes off the first part of capital letters sometimes. It's very circular and I think recognizable as mine. If someone were to do something similar, I would consider it copying. But I wouldn't consider it plagiarism unless they did the exact same quote as I did in the same way. Of course, I wouldn't be happy about it but that is the risk we all take when we share our work with the world. Which comes full circle back to why create something if you aren't going to share it with others?  :)

In terms of offhand flourishing though. I think that is a different ballgame. Offhand flourishing is more personal and more of a creative/artistic process. Copying a contemporary offhand flourish is copying someone else's creative work. IMO.  ;)
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Offline schin

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Re: Flourishes & plagiarism
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2015, 05:18:58 PM »
This is very interesting!

Personally, I feel flourishing is another way of saying styling a word/sentence. Of course, there are only so many ways to 'style' a word, but it can become very distinctive. For example, Mike Sull's and Heather Held's flourishing is so distinctive that it can be recognized as their own a mile away, and this has become their livelihood.

That said, I believe 'copying' is okay as long as it is used as a stepping stone to developing a personal style and not for profit. Learning from a master and copying how they deal with the tricky twists and turns is a good way to learn. CP Zaner's famous signature is certainly worthy of study! But I think giving proper is very nice and healthy to the community and of course, to be certain that the copy is not used for profit.
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Offline unscripted

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Re: Flourishes & plagiarism
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2015, 05:47:16 PM »
Whatever you do, do NOT make a font out of anyone's handwriting   :o  :(  >:(  :(  :o  :-\  :-X  :-[

Oh? Bad experience there?   ???

Offline unscripted

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Re: Flourishes & plagiarism
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2015, 06:17:11 PM »
Thanks everyone for your insight about this.

@Milonguera I've heard of that Picasso quote before, and saw it as a way of assuaging guilt felt over copying :D

For example, Mike Sull's and Heather Held's flourishing is so distinctive that it can be recognized as their own a mile away, and this has become their livelihood.
@schin Thanks for the references - more to add to my inspiration.

But I think giving proper is very nice and healthy to the community and of course, to be certain that the copy is not used for profit.
Made me think of a hypothetical situation, for discussion: If I were commissioned to design some words for a wedding sign, let's say..."John & Jane". And I really like the flourishing and style of "John" I saw on Instagram...would you say it is ethical to use it? Would you give a heads-up to the artist and say "hey your work is lovely so I'm stealing it". Or perhaps make some small, unnecessary change to claim it as yours? And in this case, the copy *would* be used for profit.

Offline schin

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Re: Flourishes & plagiarism
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2015, 07:24:46 PM »
But I think giving proper is very nice and healthy to the community and of course, to be certain that the copy is not used for profit.
Made me think of a hypothetical situation, for discussion: If I were commissioned to design some words for a wedding sign, let's say..."John & Jane". And I really like the flourishing and style of "John" I saw on Instagram...would you say it is ethical to use it? Would you give a heads-up to the artist and say "hey your work is lovely so I'm stealing it". Or perhaps make some small, unnecessary change to claim it as yours? And in this case, the copy *would* be used for profit.

Hmm.. I guess if I was in that situation I'd try to create my own 'John'. I don't know how my bride would feel too if she knew I was going to use another person's 'John' design? Either way.. even if I was to copy the 'John', the 'Jane' would probably not be up to par without another copy. So might as well do an original design the best I can. Plus it's a much better way to improve, plus the money earned would be honest cos it would be 100% my hard work! Don't you think?
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Offline evjo

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Re: Flourishes & plagiarism
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2015, 08:00:37 PM »
For example, Mike Sull's and Heather Held's flourishing is so distinctive that it can be recognized as their own a mile away, and this has become their livelihood.

I've wondered about what teachers expect their students to do with what they learn in their classes, especially as it concerns flourishing.  Are they bothered when they see work that so exactly mimics their own designs?  Or perhaps they feel happy that they have successfully passed on their knowledge.   

I studied art in school and often heard that one could tell a good teacher by the variety of work produced by the students in the class.

Once, I had an unpleasant teacher who would only give good grades to people who painted exactly like he did.  Ugh!

Everyone is so different, so perhaps some are happy reproducing the flourish they learn in a workshop, while others move towards their own style.  I find a style emerges because I am just not capable of doing what the teacher does.  ha ha.  Also, sometimes I use what I learn from pointed pen classes to make artwork that is neither calligraphy or flourishing.
Ev

Offline jeanwilson

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Re: Flourishes & plagiarism
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2015, 08:10:23 PM »
There is a wonderful book - Steal Like an Artist, by Austin Kleon - which explains the kind of stealing/copying that is useful for learning. Peter Thornton, a renown scribe always says, "Steal and conceal." Gather ideas, but make them your own. IMHO that is a much better way to express the concept of *OK stealing.*

In one of his workshops, Peter walked by my desk and said, "Ooh, nice. I shall be stealing that," and winked. He has been teaching for at least 30 years and he has no qualms about people copying his style because he is secure in the knowledge that nobody will ever be able to replicate his work. He also teaches layout and design and -again- it is easy to spot layouts of people who have studied with him. I'm pretty sure students understand that he would not approve of someone copying one of his pieces -exactly- and selling it. I can't imagine anyone being so dense. In general, the people who are at the top of the heap are not threatened by plagiarism. It's the mid-range people who are doing stuff that is easy to copy - and the people who are copying are at the bottom of the heap. The easy answer is to get so good, nobody can do what you do....

I see envelopes on Pinterest where I can see that someone was trying to copy one of mine, but it's either slightly off or sometimes it is so far off, I feel bad for them and wish I could give them some tips. When I have students who get really good at copying some of my styles, I'm happy for them and know that they will move on to other things.

Kleon's book explains how artists are visual creatures and the better you are at sponging the good stuff, the better you will become as an artist. The point is not to pass exact copies off as your own - the point is to identify the good stuff and incorporate the essence while letting your own hand show through. Making copies of paintings (at 75% of the original size) has always been a valid form of study.

As far as copying a particular style of writing for clients...I have brides who buy invitations from Belle Figura or Maria Thomas and then ask me to match the style. I explain that I can't match it exactly, I can only do my own version which will be close enough. Depending on the style, I match some closer than others. The untrained eyes of the clients usually can't tell the difference. Was Maria Thomas upset that I got really good at mimicking her penmanship? I doubt it. I certainly wouldn't have advertised that I could do *Maria Thomas* envelopes. But, when a local bride buys something online and wants the envelopes done locally, I don't see any harm in matching the envelopes to the invitation. But, I would not add that style to any of my promotional materials. I would never do *knock-offs.*

If someone sends me a sample off the internet and asks me to copy the style, I explain that I can't replicate someone's penmanship, but I can send them a sample of my version that uses similar slant, shapes, weights, etc. So far, I have never had anyone who was disappointed. Again, they probably can't see any of the subtle differences. And I do not add these styles to my list of styles that I offer.

The original question in this topic: 
Was it wrong to copy a word and post it on Instagram?
Do you try hard to create your own design?

It is always polite to mention that you were copying something you admired.
It would be embarrassing if someone called you out.
You don't want people getting the impression that you are trying to pass things off as your own.

You will probably do better down the road if you do some serious copying of the masters in the beginning - IF you r goal is to learn the traditional styles.
I have had students who wanted to do only modern styles and some of them were super creative from the very beginning.
So, the decision about when you want to get uber-creative depends a lot on what your goals are.

Offline Jennifer J

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Re: Flourishes & plagiarism
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2015, 01:07:24 AM »
I just wanted to say that I have been totally enjoying this discussion. It is a topic that I have wondered about in the past, so I am glad to see it addressed. I had been seeing things that I liked in other peoples' work and wondered if it was okay to try them out myself.  But then it was one of those things where once you start noticing something, you notice it in a lot of places. Others have responded that there are only so many ways to flourish some letters; it is amazing to me how distinctive peoples' personal styles are even when doing the same basic movements. I think the only way I can learn the arm/ hand movements is to copy something and from there my own style will eventually show through. I am mostly trying to copy old masters, but occasionally there is something more modern that I see and want to try. In my own home, while I am developing my own style, I am getting more comfortable with the fact that that is just how it is!
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Offline unscripted

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Re: Flourishes & plagiarism
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2015, 06:10:56 AM »
Hmm.. I guess if I was in that situation I'd try to create my own 'John'. I don't know how my bride would feel too if she knew I was going to use another person's 'John' design? Either way.. even if I was to copy the 'John', the 'Jane' would probably not be up to par without another copy. So might as well do an original design the best I can. Plus it's a much better way to improve, plus the money earned would be honest cos it would be 100% my hard work! Don't you think?

But...but...you're a pro schin! Easy for you to be original! :D I'm kidding, I totally agree it's the honest thing to do.