Laughable

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I find the Rhodia paper to be nice to use, in my limited experience. Also, I don't have access to anything else here. Importing paper is very expensive.

I don't really practice as such. I just write stuff - journals, random things and so on. So I guess what you're seeing here is about as good as it will ever get. The nib... well, it's okay. I wouldn't say it was anything to sing and dance about.  It was a bit expensive at $10 (won't be doing that again), overpriced really, but I wanted to try one as everyone blathers on about them. Luckily I have a box full of other, less exalted nibs that were a fraction of the cost.  They will be more commensurate with my abilty, or lack thereof.  One of my favourites is the vintage Gillott 404, but again they are expensive I have never seen any for sale in quantity. I was fortunate enough to be gifted 4 of them though.

[Faeleia]

I actually appreciate different nibs at different stages of my learning. When I first started out, I loved the blue pumpkin style Hiro 40. Then I really liked Leonardt principal.. Then I liked practising with Gillott 303. Now it's all esterbrook 356.  I'm a one nib kinda girl.

[Sheehan1]

Hi David.  We started this path together and I am so pleased you are finding sometime to practise.  My experience is like a lot of previous posts.  Just start with some guidelines and some examples of the lower case letters.  I found my first mistake was not to be detailed enough in my trying to replicate the examples.   Some of Joe Vitolos articles on IAMPETH stress little things like symmetry in the introductory curve and the exit curve.  Also symmetry in the circular parts of the letter as well as the down strokes e.g. the first part of the down stroke of the letter "a" should be at the same angle as the second down stroke on the right side of the "a".   I think I am speaking of Engrosser's script but I think it is still applicable (I may be wrong)   But studying the form of the letter very carefully and then being very self critical after making the letter.   Watch for symmetry at all levels.    My limited experience tells me that this is a long learning curve but it is very fascinating.  I am now looking at some very simplistic flourishes just to broaden the learning curve.   I have made about another ten oblique pen holders so if you want to make some yourself let me know and I can send a bit of brass over to NZ as I owe you a favour with the sample calligraphy inks you sent me.   I have quite a collection of dip nibs including the Musselman Perfection and a few other ones that I will post about later.  Keep well.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Hello Laurie,

We did start together but that's about as far as it went. I have ground to a halt. No aptitude for this. No matter how many circles I draw they never gain any consistency.  It is frustrating, especially with no local teacher or even another local enthusiast to talk with.  I think I am about ready to concede that this type of pen use may be well beyond my capabilities, and that I should stick with simple writing for my own enjoyment.

Best,

David

[jeanwilson]

Hello Laurie,

We did start together but that's about as far as it went. I have ground to a halt. No aptitude for this. No matter how many circles I draw they never gain any consistency.  It is frustrating, especially with no local teacher or even another local enthusiast to talk with.  I think I am about ready to concede that this type of pen use may be well beyond my capabilities, and that I should stick with simple writing for my own enjoyment.

Best,

David

It is a good idea to consider working on your penmanship or trying a some different styles using regular pens and markers. Nibs and ink can be very challenging. The main reason I have my blog and post daily examples is to keep a steady stream of ideas for my students who wanted something simpler than nibs and ink. While I do toss in a few spectacular examples by my penpals, 90% of what I offer is very easy. There is no quick way to surf through the examples because very few of them have labels, but in my spare moments, I am trying to go back and add labels so that the categories are easy to find. Using the search feature and searching words such as [easy], [marker] or [penmanship] is one way to find examples of things that might be more interesting to you at this point. Down the road, if you work on penmanship with regular pens, you might try nibs and ink and find that you enjoy it more. One of my broken record comments on the forum is that to try to learn all the ins-and-outs of nibs and ink - at the same time you are trying to learn all the new shapes of a new style of lettering can be too many things at once. If you are drawn to handwriting, don't give up on the handwriting, just set the nibs and ink aside for now, and find ways to enjoy the tactile experience.

My blog:

http://pushingtheenvelopes.blogspot.com/

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I am conflicted on what exactly is supposed to be learned. This comes from a perception that calligraphy is an art.  What I see a lot of, even from famous people, is precision copying of fonts. No artistry there, just strict application of method. Perhaps this is what calligraphy is supposed to be? I do wonder just how precise the average writer using a Spencerian hand really was back in the day.

I guess at heart I am simply someone who writes and would like to improve the general consistency of my hand.  Being able to produce a computer-accurate rendition of a font does not excite me overly much.  I feel writing should be organic and not mechanical.

Obviously I have issues.

[jeanwilson]

I am conflicted on what exactly is supposed to be learned. This comes from a perception that calligraphy is an art.  What I see a lot of, even from famous people, is precision copying of fonts. No artistry there, just strict application of method. Perhaps this is what calligraphy is supposed to be? I do wonder just how precise the average writer using a Spencerian hand really was back in the day.

I guess at heart I am simply someone who writes and would like to improve the general consistency of my hand.  Being able to produce a computer-accurate rendition of a font does not excite me overly much.  I feel writing should be organic and not mechanical.

Obviously I have issues.

IMHO you do not have*issues* at all - what you have is a preference for writing that includes some variation from the exemplar. I tried traditional calligraphy and was bored silly by the precise copying of fonts or traditional exemplars. There are many ways to approach penmanship and calligraphy. Choose the path that feels right to you and I guarantee you will find others who are on a similar path. Don't apologize for your choices or your work. As the Teddy Roosevelt quote says: Comparison is the thief of joy.

General consistency will increase the elegance of your work. But, if you like the work of Ralph Steadman, maybe you don't need to bother with consistency.

Enjoy the process...express yourself.

Many of the rock stars in calligraphy are personal friends. Some have stayed in my home while in town to teach workshops. They all observed my haphazard process and none of them were critical. They are all respectful and understand that the extreme dedication to traditional styles is just one of many avenues. And during the off hours, we'd mess around with experimental things - and I know a couple of them picked up some ideas from me.

Once again, my blog is the gathering place for really out-of-the-box lettering and penmanship. There are some very interesting conversations in the comment section and we do a lot of sharing of ideas.

[seanlanefuller]

Jean I never thought a posting about calligraphy would make me tear up, but yours did.  I'm not exactly sure why.  Perhaps the acceptance.  Perhaps the camaraderie.  Thanks.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Still utter rubbish.

[jeanwilson]

Try putting your words closer together. If you imagine the letter i as a connector between each word, that would be enough space. I sometimes space the words a little tighter than that. I make an exit stroke that is a tiny bit looser and wider and then the next word has an entrance stroke that is a tiny bit looser and wider and the two strokes are nearly touching. Two much space between words make them look like they are not friends with each other. Your slant on your words is consistent, so rather than write on straight lines, give yourself some penciled wavy lines. Just graceful ups and downs. 

Try to get mesmerized by the line you have chosen. I just had a job writing one line on the mat for a photo. I probably wrote it 20 times before I wrote on the mat. I had no connection with the words - but after I wrote them over and over, I started to get a nice feel for the individual letters and how they worked together. Forcing yourself to do repetition can take all the enjoyment out of the process, but thinking of repetition as your friend - a little trip that will take you somewhere unexpected - can lead you to some nice surprises. But your thoughts have to be - "I am enjoying this trip."

Remember when you were a kid and you did some activity over and over until it drove someone else in the house crazy and they begged you to stop? That's the kind of feeling that is helpful to cultivate when you are working on penmanship. If you are annoyed by drills or repetition, you might not reap any benefit. Some people recommend writing affirmations over and over - as that does double-positive action.

If the words in your head, as you write are, "This is bad, I'm bad at this, I will never get better," you run the risk of making that come true. So keep the head-chatter in a positive vein.

Keep posting examples, please. My intuition tells me that you are on the verge of  some ah-ha penmanship.

[ericp]

Remember when you were a kid and you did some activity over and over until it drove someone else in the house crazy and they begged you to stop?

Ha ha, no, that never happened to me, *but* I could not help myself picturing little Jean driving her family crazy though... 

Seriously, I fully agree on the repetition part.  I also like your analogy about getting a feel of how neighbouring letters "become friends", that's exactly how I see it too.  In fact there are so many different ways to do this, doing variation drills with exploration in mind is one thing I do frequently.  Thanks Jean for the great advice, as usual!

[Empty_of_Clouds]

You know, when I pick up a fine point fountain pen or a dip pen this is my natural hand.  It's really not like any standard hand. I would like to adopt Spencerian as a day to day hand, and I like Copperplate, but end up doing neither.  Is there a good Spencerian exemplar available that shows the forms and the joins?

It had never, ever crossed my mind that my words were too far apart.  I'll give the 'friendship' thing a try.

For what it is worth I learn best by observing and copying, rather than reading and copying.  Watching videos of great writers like Connie Chen and Schin Loong have given me a better idea about rhythm, which I think is very important. This is not something I could have learned from a book.

[jeanwilson]

You are right about how helpful it is to see people actually writing. Peter Thornton ( a master in the broad edge world who has been teaching for 40+ years) said that one of the best things he learned after he had been teaching for a while was how much it helped students to give demonstrations. When he was a student, his instructors did not spend a lot of time on demos, so he didn't include demos when he first started. After he saw that demos were helpful, he included more. Lucky for my students, I learned about the value of demos before I started teaching. I do not know of any good Spencerian videos. It's too bad there isn't a Joe Vitolo in the Spencerian world. Maybe this is something we can bring up at IAMPETH.

The rhythm of Spencerian is so important. As I have said many times before, I was not drawn to Spencerian at all. It was only after I signed up for a Mike Sull workshop just to help fill it - and figured I'd do it for two days and walk away...but I fell in love with the rhythm and feel of it - and it totally changed my perspective on pretty much everything. IMHO, it is way more versatile than one would expect and it can be very misunderstood.

[Ken Fraser]

I tried traditional calligraphy and was bored silly by the precise copying of fonts or traditional exemplars.

My experience is exactly the opposite!

The precise copying of fonts or traditional exemplars has always given me great pleasure and satisfaction, especially when it all (eventually) falls into place.

Basic, fundamental differences like this, give this forum great vitality and spirit - long may they continue!   

Ken

[jeanwilson]

I tried traditional calligraphy and was bored silly by the precise copying of fonts or traditional exemplars.

My experience is exactly the opposite!

The precise copying of fonts or traditional exemplars has always given me great pleasure and satisfaction, especially when it all (eventually) falls into place.

Basic, fundamental differences like this, give this forum great vitality and spirit - long may they continue!   

Ken

I should clarify that my boredom did not set in until I had tried precise copying for at least 5 years and I had tried every single style with both broad edge and pointed nib. So, those years of attempting precision were time well spent. I still recommend precise copying to beginners - but if it is frustrating and driving them away -then-  I offer the looser alternatives. Some people play around with loose for a while - then return to precision after they are more comfortable with the tools.

I compare it to ice hockey. You can learn the rules of the game and learn to skate - but if you don't do some serious work on all the other skills, you won't excel. It's fine if you want to play pond hockey. But if you want to earn a scholarship - you'll have to work much harder. And with the youngest players, you will drive them away if you just hammer away at the drills and don't let them experience the fun of the game. I've seen coaches who hammer drills - and they can get the kids to win early in the season, but the teams that have fun and are more balanced in their coaching will develop players who pull together at the end of the season and knock off the teams that had earlier success. Of course calligraphy isn't a team sport - but sports are (can be) right brained activities - so there are some parallels.

Starlee pointed out that the idea of right-brain-left-brain has been debunked - so - I'll just leave it that there are parallels.